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This magic number: 2214 Delegate Votes

Referring to a post by Big Tent Democrat last week, Kevin Drum asked this soulless question about the Florida and Michigan delegation issue:

But is there really a sizable pool of Democrats in either state who are both (a) so committed to the party that they care about stuff like this and (b) so uncommitted to the party that they’re willing to either stay home or vote for John McCain in November? Or is the argument that activists will be so pissed off that they’ll refuse to man phone banks and knock on doors, thus scuttling Clinton/Obama’s ground game? I’m not sure I get the logic here.

He probably doesn’t get it in the same way that his candidate doesn’t get it.  There’s nothing in it for them, they don’t see the big deal.  Case closed. 

It’s funny how often Kevin posts these empty-headed questions.  Reading them is like a window to nowhere.  He started a lively/vicious discussion, but never participated in the comments (BTD, however, posted several engertic comments defending his position). 

Also in the comments was one of the best descriptions of why I think this issue resonates for so many of us:

It’s a moot point since Obama has always intended on seating the delegations after he wraps up the nomination.

Except that it’s hardly going to be a moot point if Obama will NOT have won the nomination had, say, the FL delegation been seated as based on the original primaries. In fact, it will only inflame things if that’s the way it turns out; the resentment over being disenfranchise will be only greater in FL and everywhere else across the nation.

Posted by: frankly0 on April 2, 2008 at 5:15 PM | PERMALINK

Posting today at TalkLeft, Big Tent Democrat seemed to agree:

The magic number. That is not a phrase you hear much in reference to the Democratic nomination. We hear about pledged delegate counts and how sacrosanct they are of course. But never is that tied to the concept of a magic number. But the magic number exists. Two are possible – one with FL/MI (2214) and one without (2025).

(snip)

You can not truly claim legitimacy unless the nominee achieves the MI/FL magic number – 2214, through an agreed upon process. After the fact will not cut it. The legitimacy of the nominee depends upon it. (emphasis by me)

Hillary has said that she’s taking her battle to seat the delegations all the way to the conventions. If we don’t seat them, she wants us all on record denying their full voting rights at the convention :

VAN SUSTEREN: And if he says, no, I won’t do it, that leaves Michigan and Florida out. And does that leave you out?

CLINTON: No. Not at all, because we are going to make sure those votes get counted, one way or another.

VAN SUSTEREN: How?

CLINTON: Well, you know, you can always go to the convention. That is what credential fights are for. You know, let’s have the Democratic Party go on record against seating the Michigan and Florida delegations three months before the general election? I don’t think that will happen. I think they will be seated. So that is where we are headed if we don’t get this worked out.

I’m with Hillary and BTD on this. Let’s join them and stop referring (even in passing) to the magic number that doesn’t include the Florida and Michigan delegations. When we count the delegates, let’s include ALL the delegates.  And when we count the votes — make every vote count.

As an extra supporting link, Jeralyn says the Popular Vote is a tie!

[Update]  Jonathan Singer reports an email message with Hillary’s rejection of Obma’s request for a 50/50 split of the Michigan delegation:

Just in via email, the Clinton campaign responds to the Obama campaign floating the possibility of seating all of the delegates out of Michigan, but with a 50/50 split. Here’s campaign spokesman Phil Singer:

When it comes to counting votes, the Obama campaign seems content to only count the ones that it got. Senator Obama voluntarily removed his name from the Michigan ballot and wants a backroom deal that ignores the nearly 600,000 Americans who voted in Michigan. Instead of distorting Senator Clinton’s words, the Obama campaign ought to honor the votes in Michigan and Florida, respect the bedrock principles of our democracy and stop giving the Republicans an issue to use against Democrats in the fall. 

Obama couldn’t have had any serious expectation that Hillary would accept the 50/50 spilt of Michigan delegates.  So what did he expect to get out of making this offer?

36 Responses

  1. “But is there really a sizable pool of Democrats in either state who are both (a) so committed to the party that they care about stuff like this”

    Holy #$$%, does he think that people are eager to cast ceremoinial votes because they think they can win a free plasma TV or something? Most people vote in order to have their damn votes counted–when that doesn’t happen, uh yeah, they kind of care.

    Is there some sort of fringe benefit to voting I’m missing that exists outside of having the votes counted, like it improves the skin or is the equivalent of a week of workouts?

  2. Michigan and Florida could potentially affect the outcome one way or the other. If Obama beats her in Florida (like in PA), he would have won it fair and square. On the other hand, these states could potentially give Hillary the winning hand as well (the last 10 primaries could give her an upper hand as well). We won’t know until their voices heard.

    Like Anglachel said,

    “If The Golden One was simply getting more votes in the same contests, then, yeah, sucks to be on the losing team, but the votes are the votes. However, the fact that the inclusion of these two states changes the math completely and that the votes are being blocked by Obama and that the press is brutalizing Hillary and making shit up and that we need both those states in our column come November and, well, yeah, we’re getting pissed.”

  3. sickofthis: “the equivalent of a week of workouts”

    I could use some voting.

  4. sickofthis: “the equivalent of a week of workouts”

    I could use some voting.

  5. Wow, 1972 all over again! There was some pretty wild stuff at that convention (Dem, of course), including the McGovern camp intentionally losing procedural votes so that the Humphrey camp wouldn’t be able to challenge more important rules that would seal the victory for McGovern. I hope the Clinton strategists are reading their Hunter S. Thompson as they look ahead!

  6. Don’t you hate it when you post the same thing twice? I do. Sorry about that,

    Oh and by the way, the Confluence is a little over 1000 hits short of 200K. Congrats in advance.

  7. Upstate, the DNC is offering free membershps to the voting club, you can travel from state to state voting in caucuses that don’t verify. Free towels and they charge only $1 for every pound you lose. And you get $20 for every disenfrachsing scheme you come up with.

  8. sickofthis: heh!

    I very much doubt they would want me. I am the quiet type (and not much of a team player), so probably I would not fare well at caucauses based on what I have seen at youtube.

    Plus I am not among the popular/intelligent/beautiful half of the Dem party.

  9. 2214 is our new mantra. The more our girl refuses to roll over, the more we love her!

  10. Obama supporters really don’t believe that some Democrats will refuse to vote this time. I’ll make myself do it but I have three other adults in my family (mother, brother, husband) and they will not vote for Obama, period. It’s not just FL and MI, as bad as that is, it’s the whole tone of this campaign and the smearing of two Democrats that my family thinks highly of.

    Obama needs to come around and do the right thing on MI and FL and then he needs to do some major making up to the Clinton supporters. Hillary may be a big enough person to let it go, but many of us aren’t.

    Teresa

  11. And Katiebird, on the Clinton memo….Obama isn’t content to count only the votes he got. He wants to count some of the ones Hillary got with the 50-50 non-solution.

    Teresa

  12. (nodding) Teresa, that’s so true.

    And me? I’m not voting for Obama (I’ll write in Hillary). But that’s no real loss to him. I live in Kansas and there’s no way it will vote for a Democrat. Still, I’ll never vote for a Republican.

  13. I’m in Tennessee (duh). I doubt my vote will matter either. It makes it tempting. I feel like I will be validating this terribly unfair campaign if I vote for Obama but I worry about my 16 year old step-daughter who has lived with me 11 years.

    I want Obama (if he wins) to sit down, on TV, with Bill and Hillary Clinton and have a long honest discussion with them about how this campaign ended up here. I know that won’t happen but somebody needs to make me feel better about this. The rest of my family is a lost cause. Two won’t vote at all and one will probably vote for McCain.

    I never dreamed this primary would end up this way.

    Teresa

  14. Drum is another knucklehead that I dismissed. A political animal alright.

  15. I am so sad today over the Rhodes video and the awareness that she was speaking out at an event organized by Obama supporters, for Obama supporters, advertised on Obama’s website and sponsored by a station that has endorsed Obama.

    I feel like the Democratic party, the party that I’ve pretty much always been proud of has just dried up and gone away. If someone with Clinton’s accomplishments and loyalty can be spoken of in this crass a fashion, and the party doesn’t object, why do I belong?

    How is it the Boxer and Mikulski, and hosts of others aren’t standing up and objecting to this rhetoric? When did it become okay for nationally syndicated talk show hosts to behave like this at a Democratic function? Why doesn’t Obama feel the need to straighten this out (yeah, yeah, stupid question)? And that’s ultimately what I find so disheartening – we’ve all been misrepresented. And when you are misrepresented, you’re eager to straighten it out. If some Clinton supporter – say, Ed Rendell was caught calling Michelle Obama a fucking whore, Clinton would have a press conference within minutes and fly to Chicago to apologize. From the obama campaign, we get nothing. From his supporters, we get lame ripostes about how Obama can’t be responsible for everything people post on his blog.

    I’m genuinely heartbroken today. This isn’t about the individual candidates but about the fact that the Democratic party is tolerating this. Progressives are tolerating this. And all of it justifies racist rhetoric being used against Obama in the general – should he be the nominee. How can he object when someone calls him by a racist epithet when he has looked the other way when Clinton is called by a misogynist epithet?

    Hillary may never have been called a nigger, but she has certainly been called something as demeaning. Obama is defining deviancy downward – as someone once observed about the Republicans.

  16. I have a proposal for those 50/50 split proponents. How about if I take your wallets? When you complain, I’ll say, Okay, let’s compromise – I’ll give you back half your money, I’ll keep half, and everybody’s happy. Deal?

    Somehow I don’t think they’d buy that, do you? Then they can keep their hands off my valid Michigan vote.

  17. {{Upstate}}, I don’t know what happened to my comment, but hours ago, I wrote that I think you’re totally wrong, you are in my half of the Democratic party. And that’s clearly the popular, brilliant & beautiful half…. 🙂

  18. @Lori: It all makes sense when you realize that throughout the world women and girls are not considered human beings–at all. If they were then slurs, bigotry, and hate crimes against their gender would be taken seriously rather than universally being trivialized, justified, or openly celebrated. This is why Rhodes not only remains proud of her “performance,” but feels victimized:

    They [Air America Radio] are in breach of my contract and have damaged my hard won excellent reputation in the broadcast industry…”

    Just today, the UN released a report that points to the obvious: women and girls throughout the world are the victims of insidious intolerance and hate, usually violent.

  19. Sometimes I think these boy bloggerz are all 15 years old and have never been through an election before! What do they teach these kids in school these days? Do they even understand the concept of one person, one vote, and what a democracy means? This is why I’ve just stopped reading these people. Just about everything they say these days is basically to prop up their candidate and doesn’t make any sense to anyone living in the reality community.

  20. What Kevin obviously doesn’t realize is that committment is a two way street. If the Party isn’t committed enough to count their votes now then don’t expect them to to vote for their non-choice later.

  21. I am surprised that Jimmy Carter, as someone how monitored elections, is out there being coy about his support of Obama. Obama got started in politics by leveling the playing field. He hired an election official to challenge the nominating papers of his opposition, and thereby ran unopposed:

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-070403obama-ballot,0,6422746,full.story

    Obama wants to disenfranchise the voters of Florida and Michigan because he doesn’t hink he can win these votes fairly.

    How much do you know about Obama, Jimmy Carter? I used to respect you, but you seem to know little about a candidate for whom you plan to vote.

  22. UpstateNY–

    You are popular with us Conflucians, you are certainly intelligent, and your writing and ideas are beautiful. No more negatives about ourselves. We are smart and we see clearly. We are not blinded by what our candidate says or represents. We see her as she is and we love her anyway. We don’t want a perfect president, but we want one who is tough but compassionate and who knows her way around government and politics.

  23. katiebird– I used to think that if I didn’t vote for the Democrat in MA it wouldn’t matter, but I’ve begun to think that Obama will lose MA. People here are disgusted with Deval Patrick. I don’t think they’ll vote for another Axelrod clone like Barack. I’m afraid if Hillary doesn’t get the nomination MA will go for McCain. But I still don’t think I could bring myself to vote for Obama.

  24. Cognitive Dissonance,

    When I was in high school we were required to take a civics course. These days, civics is no longer taught in the schools. A lot of those young blogger boyz haven’t take it, and they also don’t have any historical knowlege to inform their opinions. They are clueless and vulnerable to cult leaders.

  25. Dean, Brazile, and TeamO believe that we’ll all come ’round and support our team in November. Well, the fact that they’re banking on that pisses me off as much as the disenfranchisement of two million Democrats in FL and MI. As a former Floridian, who was there for the 2000 debacle, I can tell you that I absolutely WILL NOT collude in the Dean Disenfranchisement of Democrats.

    Yesterday I sent a note to Donna Brazile demanding to know why she was disenfranchising Democrats in order to set the process to her preferred solution, and I closed by saying “shame on you.” She wrote back saying “we must all work together!”

    Right, Donna. All of us except the two million in FL and MI, who are being excluded from the “together” part of that platitude.

    I’m voting for Hillary Clinton in November–whether she is the nominee by democratic process, or not. The fact that TeamO thinks they can PASS OFF this 50/50 CON as a legitimate offer just sets my simmering rage to a boil.

    My vote goes to the best candidate: Hillary Clinton.

  26. CognitiveDissonance — In political terms, most of the blogger boyz were indeed born yesterday. Most of them had a political awakening with the Dean campaign, and stuck around for Kerry.

    These are NOT political sophisticates, and most are not on personal journeys to become political sophisticates. Thay are people who believe they can get up one morning knowing every bit as much as people who have devoted their whole lives and hearts to a subject (and have proven their mettle in elimination contests in most cases).

    It follows that they don’t think this whole game is much deeper than tic-tac-toe, and that they don’t expect to learn any more in a year, or a decade, or a century.

    Kevin Drum is among the better of the bunch, IMO. He demonstrates a degree of humility and curiosity that most others do not.

  27. There is a real problem with trying to figure out how to allocate these delegates fairly with no revote.

    Based on the exit polling roughly 15% of Obama voters said they voted for Clinton. Some 27% of Edwards voters did it.. That does not even account for the stay at home portion and those that chose to vote in the other primary.

    Uncommitted was heavy Obama

    70 percent of African-Americans cast their votes for `uncommitted.’ ”

    Voters aged 18-29 overwhelmingly voted “uncommitted.”

    Obviously two of Obamas main groups voted for uncommitted but the rest actually voted for Clinton as did many of Edwards voters.

    Better to have a vote than this process but it is what it is now.

    certainly neither Clinton nor Obama would have had 50% of the tally with Edwards in there. My guess is it with a few assumptions looking at the exit data is that would have broken down

    Clinton 42 +/-
    Obama 40 +/-
    Edwards 14
    Other 3

    (by the way that was before i saw this)

    Friday, March 07, 2008
    AdvertismentIf Democrats hold a second Presidential Primary in Michigan, the race could be one of the most competitive all year. The latest Rasmussen Reports telephone survey finds that Hillary Clinton would attract 41% of the Primary Vote while Barack Obama would earn an identical 41%.

    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/michigan/election_2008_michigan_democratic_presidential_primary

    Assigning all of the delegates to one or the other disenfranchises the Edwards vote of michigan as well. Where should it go? But if you are looking just at Clinton and Obama it was probably close to 42/82 and 40/82

    or Clinton 51.2
    Obama 48.7

    or based on Rasmussen’s poll of 41/41 taken in March

    Clinton 50%
    Obama 50%

    better for Clinton is that the same outfit shows Florida election was probably about right.

    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/florida/election_2008_florida_democratic_primary

    The latest Rasmussen Reports telephone survey shows that Clinton attracts 55% of the Sunshine State Primary Vote while Obama earns 39%.

    the actual result was

    Clinton 50
    Obama 33
    Edwards 14

    so 55/39 looks pretty accurte if you assume in FL Edwards support split sorta even to each

    Obama’s camp can make a reasonable case for 50/50 in MI.

    We’ll see how “fair” they want to be in FL where the vote should just count as is. A compromise in FL would be to ding the supers not the voters if the DNC wanted to discourage this again.

    make MI and FL supers vote a 80% weight vote or something and count the rest. OR just use no punishment at all. and go with

    MI 51/49
    FL 55/39 (i.e. 58/42 in %) or use the result (55/33/14) which probaly favors Clinton versus the reality of no campaigning in FL a bit

    at least there is evidence to support counting FL as fair if they do note revote

    anyway just my opinion

  28. sadbuttrue, you are assuming the exit polls would match the reality of the vote. It hasn’t anywhere else. I think an actual result should outweigh an exit poll any day. Obama voters voted uncommitted. I don’t believe any of them who say they voted for Hillary. Why would they do that with everyone telling them to vote uncommitted?

    I think it is more than generous to give Obama all of the uncommitted. To give him some of Hillary’s votes would be stealing. I would rather my vote not count at all than to count for someone I didn’t vote for.

  29. If they get their way, Osbama Bin Lying and his flock of Branch Davidian-like adherents would drive down the democratic party in flames in November. Wake up, fellow democrats before the Obamorons get hold of process and drive us down the cliff.

  30. well the michigan vote as is is total garbage.

    >>think it is more than generous to give Obama all of the uncommitted. To give him some of Hillary’s votes would be stealing. I would rather my vote not count at all than to count for someone I didn’t vote for.
    >>>>

    In reality the MI primary is so flawed none of the vote count is meaningful and that is why a revote should have occurred whatever camp obama or camp clinton wanted or lobbied.

    Clinton:

    “”It’s clear: This election they’re having is not going to count for anything. I personally did not think it made any difference whether or not my name was on the ballot”

    I agree with Hillary but they have to do something that is approaching fair or reality or Clinton is being no more fair than Obama here.

    Actually in each primary votes are “stolen” if you will from the candidates that do not get 15%. Dodds votes are “stolen”, Biden’s, Kucininch’s (sp), Edwards, and Gravel. THose are the viability rules in the cases of Biden and Dodd. FOr edwards there are just getting stolen. But the rule of MI was

    “”It’s clear: This election they’re having is not going to count for anything”- Hillary

    The problem is not that some of Clinton’s votes “were” his votes and some “were” Edwards votes because all the voters got screwed by the ballot choices. The problem is the election itself was meaningless and everybody knew it.

    I’m not saying give him all the uncommitted I’m saying allocate the totals based on the reasonable expectation of the vote including what available polling there is..

    It can;t be” fixed” as it happened there exactly. But certainly the strong demographic tendicies tell us in a revote Obama would probably do even better now with Blacks than he did before Super tuesday and South Carolina.

    I’m just saying taking the exit poll matches up with a March Rasmussen poll which tells me that the numbers proposed are reasonable in MI. Hell in a revote I actually think Obama could win the state but that is besides the point.

    As Bill said in South Carolina , Jesse Jackson won there in 1988. HE could have said that about MI too.

    I dunno I tend to think the Rasmussen poll combined withthe exit poll tells you about where this would land. There has not been a fair or meaningful election in MI by any reasonable measure.

    Fl is a different story ,though flawed, at least it reflects reality and polling.

    Revote or allocate in MI …you can;t count garbage which means

    yes you were dienfranchised as was everyone else that voted in a meaningless election.

    The party and state could have fixed that with a redo but they didn’t.

  31. Obama is the reason why there was no redo in Michigan. The Michigan legislature needed the approval of both the Clinton and Obama campaigns to go ahead and vote on the revote plan. The DNC said the Michigan revote plan was acceptable to them, but Obama started dragging its heels and ran out the clock before the Michigan legislature’s Easter break.

    Here’s the memo they sent about the Obama campaigns “concerns” about Michiganders voting (the blogger who wrote this story is an Obama supporter btw and he says Obama blocked the MI redo):

    http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/4/5/12623/93695

  32. Obama is the reason why there was no redo in Michigan. The Michigan legislature needed the approval of both the Clinton and Obama campaigns to go ahead and vote on the revote plan. The DNC said the Michigan revote plan was acceptable to them, but Obama started dragging its heels and ran out the clock before the Michigan legislature’s Easter break.

    Here’s the memo they sent about the Obama campaigns “concerns” about Michiganders voting (the blogger who wrote this story is an Obama supporter btw and he says Obama blocked the MI redo):
    >>>>>

    Maybe the legislature did “want it” but they certainly didn’t need it any more than they needed it to screw it up in the first place. The legislature let down the citizens of Michigan.

    The full Obama email points to the fact that DEmocracy21 as well as a dozen other entiies were going to sue for the following

    disenfranchised voters than thought the vote did not count and voted in the GOP primary

    the disallowance of soft money paying for the process

    As you know there was already a lawsuit and ruling that said the parties could not have the list of who voted (declared) in the previous primary. Thus the plan couldn’t even be implemented as drawn up.

    It was a flawed proposal and they should have fixed it before they left. I do not think the one proposed would have survied a challenge on disenfranchisement of previous voters.

    The legislature showed no resolve whatsoever. Neither Obama nor Clinton can vote in the MI legislature. Having screwed it up they should have opened it up, paid for it, and let the voters have at it in an election that counted and reflected the will of the people.

    They failed on all three points which required no input whatsoever from Clinton or Obama. Good for Obama if he wanted the voters that would have voted for him but voted in the GOP primary to have their say as well.

    …and what’s Fl’s excuse.

    At least it not as screwed up as MI and will probably result in more delegates for Hillary.

  33. That’s a nonstarter. The reason for the revote would be because the votes weren’t counted. Nobody made Democrats vote in the Republican primary, and if they did, their votes were already counted. Nobody gets more than one counted vote. There are plenty of people in other states who would have voted for Obama, or Clinton or Edwards if they hadn’t chosen to vote in tje republican primary, but woulda coulda shoulda they don’t get that option. “Disenfranchised” voters are ones who voted in the Democratic primary and are not having their votes counted, not voters who chose to vote in the Republican primary, had their votes counted, and now want to vote a second time.

    “Fl is a different story ,though flawed, at least it reflects reality and polling.”

    No offense, but polling is an inexact science and is greatly flawed. Obama tends to massively overpoll in primary states. Should we throw out the actual results in MA, CA, TX, NH because the polling was wrong and voters on the ground acted differently? To have any degree of accuracy a poll needs about 1500 respondants–state polls often have about 300. They’re total garbage and meaningless. What matters is who actually turns out on election day, polls are weighted in terms of who the pollsters think is going to show up, and their forecasts are about as accurate as weather forecasts. If Edwards and Obama supporters voted for Hillary, that was their choice. Hillary didn’t take their names off the ballot, they took them off themselves, leaving an obvious option in terms of uncommitted. It’s not her fault, and the idea that their shananaigans somehow invalidates the election when Obama refused flat out to take his chances with a revote, which is in itself unfair to Democrats who already voted and wouldn’t be able to take off another day to vote again etc, is stupid. Obama supporters were running a vote uncommitted campaign for Obama, and giving him all the undecideds is more than fair, since they should really be split between all the candidates who yoinked their names off.

  34. Sorry but just to clarify, what I meant by “Edwards and Obama supporters voted for Hillary, that was their choice” is that there’s no real reliable way to tell why someone voted the way he did. I know Obama supporters who got into the booth and ended up voting for Clinton for one reason and another, and vice versa. There’s also the fact that people frequently lie to pollsters, saying they’re Obama supporters who voted for Clinton when they really voted Uncommitted or whatever. And the way a question is worded often provokes confusion and different answers. In general, with polling data you’ve got a mass of unreliable information that’s open to intepretation and very likely inaccurate, that’s why it’s crazy to reject hard data (who voted for whom, the actual vote tallies) in favor of polling data that indicates who should’ve or would’ve voted for whom if this or if that. It just doesn’t make sense.

  35. That’s a nonstarter. The reason for the revote would be because the votes weren’t counted. Nobody made Democrats vote in the Republican primary, and if they did, their votes were already counted. Nobody gets more than one counted vote.>>>

    Actually in Texas people do vote twice which is why Obama won the caucus and the most delegates in the state.

    >>>>
    Nobody made Democrats vote in the Republican primary, and if they did, their votes were already counted.>>>>

    You are right nobody made them but if they wanted to vote in an election that would count that’s all they had available. The DEM primary did not count.

    The non starter is counting Michigan or Florida because they were not going to count. Unless you noticed it hasn’t started .

    So using your logic,

    nobody made anyone go vote in a meaningless election that would not count either.

    Why should they be upset any more than somone who did something different when faced with the same FUBAR?

    Casting a meaningless vote has a name. Straw poll.

    >>>
    In general, with polling data you’ve got a mass of unreliable information that’s open to intepretation and very likely inaccurate, that’s why it’s crazy to reject hard data (who voted for whom, the actual vote tallies) in favor of polling data that indicates who should’ve or would’ve voted for whom if this or if that. It just doesn’t make sense.
    >>>

    I couldn’t agree more. You should not count a straw poll as an election.

    The elections held in MI and FL are really no better than a straw poll because they did not count. They are pretty good straw polls but worthless straw polls nonetheless.

    I like Clinton but I just can’t agree on counting those events. They were invalid and clearly invalid. Some chose to cast a valid vote in another primary, some chose to cast a meaningless vote in a straw poll, and some just stayed home.

    I really don’t know what you do to fix it because it actually can’t be without a revote. Blame Obama for that I suppose but last time I checked neither Obama ‘s nor Clinton’s wishes actually ran the MI and FL legislatures. Nor should they.

    >>>Sorry but just to clarify, what I meant by “Edwards and Obama supporters voted for Hillary, that was their choice” is that there’s no real reliable way to tell why someone voted the way he did. I know Obama supporters who got into the booth and ended up voting for Clinton for one reason and another, and vice versa.
    >>>

    it’s moot. There was no actual valid DEM election in FL or MI. Maybe they should figure out how to have one because they have not. A revote is not as big a deal requiring the candidates approval and It’s been done before even in the DEM nominating process when another state had this exact delegate stripping thing happen.

    They did not try to count the straw poll result. They did the right thing.

    But hey if it helps Clinton I guess it’s good. If it helps Obama it’s bad. Good means to an end logic but not they way I want to see it go either.

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