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Well, well, well. Isn’t this interesting?

I just got home from a long day and started surfing around the net to see what’s happening.  Via Lambert at Corrente I learned the fascinating news that long-time Kossack and Obama fan extraordinaire, Kid Oakland has had a bit of a rude awakening.  Our friend KO went to the California Democratic Convention and had an encounter with a Hillary Clinton supporter.

There was a moment that gave me pause. I was having a friendly conversation with three SoCal kossacks in the hallway on Saturday when two Los Angeles-based delegates approached. These women, both experienced delegates and friendly Clinton supporters, were happy to chat about what we had in common: blog reading, support for Debra Bowen, curiosity about the Migden/Leno battle and the 2010 governor’s race. One of the women, wearing a Hillary button, went out of her way to compliment our group of younger delegates (wearing Obama buttons aside from me…a press pass guy) for attending the convention. I asked her if she read DailyKos and she replied curtly:

“I’m on strike from that blog.”

That surprised me. I’ve met thousands of kossacks whether at Las Vegas or Chicago or events here in California, and I’ve never once had a negative experience asking if someone reads DailyKos. In fact, I’ve met people who disagree with me vigorously online who were completely cordial and friendly in person….  That’s what struck me with that comment. I think we’ve all got to take a step back and think about that for a second. This was a woman who was cordial and welcoming and yet she felt estranged from DailyKos. The strike shut down the conversation.

Oh really? That surprised you? How very interesting. Kid Oakland is now very very concerned about those Clinton supporters whom the Obamadroids at DK treated so dismissively. Now that he sees they are actual human beings with actual votes and sometimes actual power within the Democratic party, he wonders how they can be brought back into the fold and induced to support the nominee, who of course will be Obama.  Anything else is out of the question.  But, KO wonders, can we do to patch things up with these really terrific people?

But, clearly, Senator Clinton, for as much as the facts on the ground and the party leadership have lined up against her, has the bedrock support of some of the most experienced activists in the Democratic base.

Obama and the Party need every last one of those activists. Dailykos does too. And we need them sooner rather than later. There is so much at stake in 2008. There’s too much at stake to be divided going into Denver. My concluding thought coming from San Jose is this. Obama needs to solidify his coalition. He needs to win over doubting Democrats and include those who have yet to feel fully included. To win, Barack Obama will need every last experienced activist the Democratic party can muster and those experienced activists need to feel utilized and included as respected equals.

Oh dear.  Yes, KO, we tried to tell you and Kos and all the other Clinton abusers that you were pushing things a bit too far, but you just wouldn’t listen, would you?

KO continues:

Senator Clinton is in a powerful position. Her supporters are among the best activists the Democratic Party has. I do not doubt that every last Clinton activist in the party will work for the nominee. The question is when that will happen, not whether they will support the nominee.

Oh really?

Yes, Conflucians, finally, the chickens are coming home to roost. This diary from KO also gives us a clue as to why Nancy Pelosi suddenly realized she’d better not be quite so obvious in her Obama support and flip flopped on her view of the superdelegates’ roles.

As for Michigan and Florida, eriposte has a great suggestion for how Nancy and her pals can help Obama can win without those two uppity states. Imagine wanting their votes counted toward the nomination. The nerve!

All they have to do is pass a Bill in Congress that says FL and MI will be stripped of their electoral votes in November because they broke the “rules” in the primaries! It’s that simple. This way McCain won’t benefit and if Sen. Obama is the nominee, he has a better chance of winning the general election. MoveOn.org and other fine “liberal” organizations, some of the top bloggers, the “progressive” version of hate radio, and so on, can then be completely relied upon to catapult the propaganda about how it is entirely justifiable for FL/MI to be disenfranchised in Nov according to the “rules” and according to the law. In any case, bills like the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act are all so quaint and passe – clearly, part of the “excesses” of the 60s that Sen. Obama keeps referring to.

Isn’t that a terrific idea?

All I can say is it’s going be a lot of fun watching the Obamadroids in the DNC and the big blogs trying to put Humpty Dumpty back together again now that it’s beginning to dawn on them that they’ve made a serious strategic error. Frankly, I think it’s a little too late. But that’s just me.

 So what have all you wonderful Conflucians been up to today?  And what have you heard?


112 Responses

  1. Like I said before, the DailyObama crowd sound like a clueless guy whose wife/girlfriend left him:

    “She’ll come back when she realizes how good she had it.”

    I seem to recall their parting words were “We don’t need you anyway.”

  2. myiq2xu,

    When I was still hanging in there at DK, I saw many commenters say that they wanted all the Hillary supporters to leave. They talked about how to drive us away. And now they want us to support The Precious. We all have to make up our own minds about what to do. But I will not vote for Obama. I wouldn’t vote for him for dogcatcher. And I won’t be returning to DK either. The big blogger boyz are dead to me now.

  3. This ‘Kid Oakland’ spiel sounds like a BS story to me.

  4. There is no going back. We’re in the blogosphere 2.0. The boy blogz are so last December/January. A lot of great new blogs have been found or born since then. We have also seen how the Dem elite and the DNC really work. Nope, there ain’t no going back. I’m sick of all of them. A new community got born. I want my country back. I’ll be damned if a bunch of elites and would be king makers are going to take what is left of this country and shape it in their image. Their image leaves a lot of good people outside. That isn’t my Dem party. Frake the the so called “super liberal left”. They don’t know liberal or progressive if they fell over it. They wanted power. Now they’ll see what it really looks like.

  5. If–God forbid–Obama were the nominee, let me be clear what he would get from me.


    I will not write a comment to compliment him on a blog let lone a diary. I will not donate a penny. I will not lift a phone. I will not knock on a door. I will not display a sign. I well may skip the presidential ballot and vote a straight Democratic ticket down ballot.

    I would do nothing to make Barack Obama president, and I would not shed a tear if he were to fail–as I expect he would.

    And why this animosity. Beyond the fact that I think he is not up to the task, the Obamadroids have completely alienated me, and I don’t care about their quixotic quest. Let them joust and windmills.

    As for the Site that Must Not Be Named: Let it sink into a well deserved oblivion.

  6. I say, Bye Bye Bye. Yeah, I listen to dorky pop music in addition to having season tickets to the SF Symphony :p.

  7. Ditto – all above posts. “super liberal left”. left me, I didn’t leave them.

  8. Amen. For a long time, I tried. I stuck around, because that place had felt really comfortable to me for a long time. I’m not really even angry anymore, because I’ve found other places that feel better to me, and where the people not only nicer, but smarter–most of all this place. But I also like Talkleft and Corrente so much. I think we are tougher than they are, just like Hillary is tougher than Barack, Howard D., and Nancy P. After reading everyone’s stories yesterday, I feel really good about the people here.

  9. I never spent a lot of time at “that place.” I read stories but rarely commented because it’s hard to have a discussion in a huge mob. But as it got uglier and more biased, I quit going there altogether.

    I was a regular at another site that was pro-Obama but reasonably civil until recently. There were other pro-Hillary commenters there but they began to fade away. At the end I was often the only pro-Hillary voice matched against everyone including the blog operator.

    Even worse, the site saw a huge influx of really obnoxious Obot trolls. Finally I gave up and left in disgust. They probably think of my leaving as a victory.

  10. “I’m on strike from that blog. That surprised me….” wow..what arrogance.

    I sat in the convention hallway late friday night, and listened to obama supporters from marin say they were going to ‘turn their back on bill clinton’ if he said something they didnt like…

    this from the ‘hope and unity’ crew

    i havent been to dkos since alegre put up her post, but i went there from lambert’s post at corrente…because i was at the convention, and i am one of his “this is not their first convention” people, an exec board member, county committee vice chair, former club chair, state party rural caucus secretary, and a working member of of the state standing committees for organizational development…aaaaand volunteer of the year for my mostly rural 6 county region last year….
    i was originally an edwards supporter and am still fiercely committed to his goals and his message. When he dropped out for the good of the party I didnt know where I was going to go, other
    than to vote for the Democrat in November and work for my local ‘non-partisan’ candidates.

    I know when someone is working for the good of the party and when they are not..

    he’s right somebody needs to step back…and it’s not me

  11. myiq2xu: They are waking up, it would appear from KO’s diary, to what a Pyhrric victory it is to have chased us around the web.

  12. Yes, it is too late. One of my Obamabot friends told me several months ago that “we don’t need Florida”. HAHAHA. Have we learned nothing from 2000? Just like they don’t need Clinton supporters, right? I guess that was before Rev. Wright and the polls showing that close to 30% of Clinton supporters will vote for McCain and that Obama is losing to McCain not only in FL but also having some major problems in OH and PA. My other Obamabot friend has taken a break from posting negative stuff about Clinton on his blog and went back to sports. I guess they think us moody women need some breathing room to cool down then we’ll come back to them with open arms and all will be well again. HAHAHA. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

  13. taxismom,

    It was so funny that KO suddenly realized that Hillary has lots of supporters who know their way around a convention and who are long-time activitists. Duh! Obama and his supporters have been penny wise and pound foolish. They never thought about the long term, and they still aren’t thinking about the general election. It’s just like riverdaughter said the other day, it’s the grasshopper and the ant. While Hillary has been busy building relationships and coalitions, Barack has been frittering away his time with race-baiting and negative campaigning, never thinking about how many in the party he and his supporters have alienated.

  14. Aw, come on. Don’t you think calling Air America “hate radio” is a little over the top? Sure, Randi Rhodes called Hillary Clinton a “whore”, but that was a comedy routine. It wasn’t on the air!

    C’mon! Where’s your sense of humor?

  15. Okay, Mr. Kid Oakland. We can make a deal.

    To clairfy: the issue isn’t supporting Sen. Obama in the general election (that ship has sailed); it’s about a Democrat winning the presidency.

    So, do you want a Democrat in the White House and an increase in the Dem majorities in the House and Senate?

    Then starting today, actively support Hillary Rodham Clinton as the 2008 Democratic nominee.

    Your support includes but is not limited to:

    -donating the maximum to her campaign
    -fighting against the attacks from Sen. Obama and the Republicans
    -walloping the bullshit personal comments against Sen. Clinton and other women
    -voting for Sen. Clinton in the general election

    In exchange, I’ll work the phones, stuff the envelopes, put out the signs, and do all that other stuff to get Democrats elected. And I’ll go to the polls and vote a straight Democratic ticket.

    That’s the deal.

  16. Lambert–

    Right. I hear Barack Obama made a joke about the Bataan death march too. Har har har. But I have to thank you for pointing me to KO’s diary–now that was laugh out loud funny.

  17. Yes, they expect to abuse our gal and women will come back.
    No we won’t. It’s over, we’re through. Don’t call me.

  18. Oh, and Im not supporting our local Dem congressman either. He’s a big Obama supporter – and, sorry to say, a turncoat.

  19. Well, what can I say really? Other than…

    ba da ba ba baa… I’m lovin’ it.

  20. KO’s post is why I feel, that if we can drag this to the convention, we can win for Hillary. The convention has pretty much become an award to the party faithful and a lovefest for the candidate. But the people who work for the party, network, raise money(the long time activists, in other words), are awarded for their efforts by being chosen as delegates. And many of these delegates are pledged to vote for Obama at the first vote, but afterwards they can change it. I think they will change it, and change it to Clinton, who is the one candidate not shitting on her own party, who has fought for the Democratic party. They see that Obama is the one splitting the party, being divisive.

    To the convention!!!

  21. bb
    i’ve been working with women who did clinic defense for planned parenthood in the 70’s , the national women’s political caucus, women who were members of the California “Socialist Democrats” in the 60’s, who way back then had a presence in state party politics……these are the ‘oldtimers’ he is just figuring out they may need in November and they were with HIllary long before I was..

    i had a conversation with a Nor Cal colleague Obama supporter about enfranchising MI & FLA..’you’re on of those?’ he said…then he proceeds to tell me that even if they did revote, it wouldnt make any difference…the count would be negligible…..THEN WHAT’S THE DAMN PROBLEM with letting them vote?????

    And he said ‘it just struck him one day, Obama’s the one”
    I’d heard about those people, but I didnt know i knew one…
    and he is just so sure we will win..he’s not worried that mccain and romney are running around the mountain west fundraising like crazy…well i am, worried as hell..
    my husband and i are retired he is soon to be on medicare, so that means i have no coverage once the teacher’s plan runs out.. and this election actually matters to us.

  22. BostonBoomer, KO left me behind a couple of months ago. I used to be in his local blogger group, but I dropped out when I realized that I just don’t GET him anymore. And I guess never did (although I’m still on the same side of the High Fructose Corn Syrup issue as he is.)

    I really appreciate your decoding of his post, because I didn’t get it AT ALL

    Sarah, was that you fighting the good fight today at Political Animal? What an ugly group of former-friends that’s become. Is Kevin seriously posing those clueless questions — or what?

  23. At MyDD Todd Beeton was gushing over this:

    em>Introducing the Obama Organizing Fellows

    This summer we are looking for students or recent graduates who want to be a part of a new generation of leadership that believes, like Senator Obama, that real change comes from the ground up.

    Fellows will be trained on the basics of organizing & campaign fundamentals and then placed in a community to carryout grassroots activities. Program participation will start on June 5 through the end of the summer. Fellows will be asked to commit to a minimum of 30 hours per week.

    I guess retirees and others need not apply.

  24. There’s a diary at MyDD that has a title that includes, “Coming to Obama.” My real question at this point is whether they baptize by immersion, or if pouring water over the forehead is a valid sacrament.

  25. http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/03/30/why-calling-out-misogyny-matters/

    May have been linked to before, but via Sideshow, this piece at Feministe is great–and, yes, those misogynistic jibes and slurs against Hillary are indeed aimed at all uppity women (and even nonuppity women who just might be getting some ideas…).

    Longish, but worth you reading time.

    Should be posted at every leftish blog site which permits comments: Yes, even Ann Coulter should be addressed and criticized on her arguments, not her anatomy. (No use at rightwad sites.)

  26. taxismom,

    It’s amazing, isn’t it? It really is kind of like a cult. I really started to get worried about these Obamabots when I found that if you asked even the teeniest tiniest question about what Obama really believes or what he stands for, they would lash out at you, enraged that you would dare even question his holiness. He’s about “change” and “hope.” You have to have “faith,” because he’s so special that just by his very being, his very essence, he will transform America and everything will be so perfect and we’ll all be so happy. It was scary to me.

    And now I guess some of these people are starting to wake up from their Obama-induced comas, and they are discovering, lo and behold, Hillary actually has real supporters. And the rest of the primaries look very good for her.

    What I don’t get is people like Howard Dean and Nancy Pelosi. Are they really this stupid? Do they really believe that Obama can win the election without MI and FL and while angering at least half of the party, including long-time, loyal Democrats?

  27. I have been boycotting AAR for many, many weeks – perhaps months – ever since I heard R.R. do her own special version of Tweety. I never did go to DK. I didn’t have the time. I haven’t watched KO or MSNBC since I don’t know when. I found riverdaughter by reading Larry Johnson’s blog. The Confluence is a good fit. I came close to tears several times last night whilst reading the Roll Call. We are awesome and we are people to be reckoned with.

    I wish I had something sage to say. But I don’t. I am sorry that the Obamaniacs in my family are so closed minded about BO and Hillary, that they can’t imagine how a smart, rational feminist (my mother) and I can even entertain the notion of Hillary for president. It is sad, really. I think they are so intent on ignoring the flaws in the man, they project it all onto Hillary.
    I also think when they have finally wised up to BO, it will be even sadder. For some young people in my family it is the very first time they have been inspired to become involved (besides on election day).. That said. I will only vote Hillary. If I have to writer her in I will.

  28. The ever-narcissistic St. Kid serves up another dose of his famous self-righteous drool. While he’s busy adjusting his peace-brokering halo, won’t someone please pass that boy a bib.

  29. The innate (and inane) sexism of the Obots is stunning.

    I am a 47 year old grandfather. I am a beer-drinking, football-loving flaming heterosexual. No one has mistaken me for a female since I was in diapers.

    But because I support Hillary, numerous Obots have assumed I was a woman. Others have intentionally misstated my gender hoping to make me angry. Calling me gay comes in third.

    I’ve seen numerous Obot replies to my comments that start out with something “Listen sweetheart . . . ”

    I guess calling someone a woman or a fag is the ultimate insult for these “He-Man Woman Haters.”

  30. DCDemocrat: Getting “saved” by Obama requires the full dunking. The balm is no longer in Gilead, it’s moved to Chicago.

  31. I’m with all of you . . . I’m not going back. There is an amazingly diverse, interesting and progressive coalition supporting Hillary. Let’s keep it going, as we continue to include those who seek real change through real solutions. I will not be co-opted by the Democratic elites who have failed, and failed and failed, or the hate-filled, misogynist Obamabots. These people are not progressive. I will never support Obama, nor will I be bullied into doing so— but, that won’t be an issue because Hillary will win the nomination as well as the GE!

  32. ufa: The ever-narcissistic St. Kid serves up another dose of his famous self-righteous drool.

    It’s a BS story designed to assist w/ the “uniting” process. I’ve seen a few of those in the last 24hrs. I also expect lots of “I am/was a HRC supporter but see how wonderful Obama is now” type essays.

    Not coincidentally, I read today that Obama is working on his GE strategy.

  33. Re the Obama Fellows:

    I thought it was a paranoid fantasy that I’d be dealing with the Obama Fan Base for the rest of my fucking life.

    Bunch of Obots coming round my house with clipboards, making notes and asking how they can “help.” No thanks.

  34. hey mv…
    listen we hit the grande dame of gay bars in San Jose last weekend, mac’s club…my bud with the Hillary t-shirt was the most popular gal in the room…:>)..
    not the best dancer, that would be me…
    but the young multi ethnic crowd, loved that t-shirt…heh…

  35. RE: “Getting saved by Obama”

    I recall Molly Ivins’ comment – “The problem with our Baptists is we don’t hold them under water long enough.”

  36. There was an op-ed today in the WashPost by Ruth Marcus advising that Hillary is allowed to stay in the race … as long as she doesn’t say anything bad about BO.

    Ridiculous. They might as well go back to calling for her to drop out.

  37. I think they are waking up because we are becoming visible. Lambert can claim credit to pushing back the calls to withdrawal with his WWTSBQ Watch series (which cost me a few $$). We can defeat one meme, we can defeat them all.

    And one self-serving DK diary does not make a trend and does not enfranchise FL and MI voters.

    People like KO should know by now, that nice fuzzy rhetoric does not work on us. We want substance. That’s why we support Hillary

  38. And will the Obama Fellows be grassroots organizing for anyone but the Obama campaign?

    Signs point to no.

    I think that’s what bugs me the most in all of this. There’s alot of “us” and “we” and “together” being thrown around by the Obama campaign. It’s taken as a given that anyone who is a decent person should “unify” for “change” but, leaving aside that “change” is left all but underfined, the only way for that to happen is to vote Obama. All that is good or could be good rests in his attaining the Presidency. Only he can save us. Only by electing him can we save ourselves. The “us” ends up being all about him.
    The whole sell is that of empowering people, but what it appears to me to be is the use of people to attain power.

  39. Re: “And will the Obama Fellows be grassroots organizing for anyone but the Obama campaign?”

    By summer the primaries will be over. Why will Obama need a grassroots organization?

    There are already grassroots organizations in the Democratic party.

    Oh, wait, he’s kissed a bunch of them off and they aren’t coming back, not for him anyway.

  40. Hey Myiq2xu,

    Sounds like the other board you may be referring to is the DUmp. I recently left DU, it was ugly. Being a Hillary supporter over there was like being a 6th grader fighting off high school bullies, bloody and unwinnable.

    I love this place, TalkLeft and Corrente. I also joined some DUers who formed Capital Hill – a Hillary board.

    This whole primary has been very enlightening but not in a good way.

  41. If–God forbid–Obama were the nominee, let me be clear what he would get from me.


    I will not write a comment to compliment him on a blog let lone a diary. I will not donate a penny. I will not lift a phone. I will not knock on a door. I will not display a sign. I well may skip the presidential ballot and vote a straight Democratic ticket down ballot.

    I would do nothing to make Barack Obama president, and I would not shed a tear if he were to fail–as I expect he would.

    And why this animosity. Beyond the fact that I think he is not up to the task, the Obamadroids have completely alienated me, and I don’t care about their quixotic quest. Let them joust and windmills.

    As for the Site that Must Not Be Named: Let it sink into a well deserved oblivion.

    LMAO! A comment that reads my heart to the letter.

  42. Elixer: JC’s BJ

  43. I’d been a reader of Dkos since before anybody heard of his blog. What pisses me off the most about that site now is you have a bunch of people attacking Senator Clinton and the former Pres in a most vicious, vitriolic manner. These two people were committed democrats-fighting the good fight long before most of the posters on that site were born and that includes the creator of the site. It’s really quite disgusting.

  44. I knew this would happen. No amount of introspection or apologies will work since they’re obviously void of integrity or sincerity. It is too damn late. The damage has been done.

    If Clinton is not the nominee we’ll all know it was the result of a scorched earth/shock and awe campaign by Obama, the DNC, his supporters, and a media that were hellbent on exploiting any vice–misogynistic bigotry, disenfranchisement, heinous smears–solely to destroy her. This was never about supporting Obama, but disemboweling what Clinton represented. And they sure as hell enjoyed themselves as they did it. Hell, they felt downright righteous about it! Unfortunately for the Believers, the media will turn on Obama if he’s the nominee and expose this bullshit just to knock him out.

    And since Obama is currently tied with McCain–in MA of all places!–his best possible outcome would be to avoid a total landslide. Not even the economy will bail him out since the man is simply not qualified to be president–at all. The Believers will be fighting for a lost cause and everyone will know it.

  45. Ohio- Brilliant!

  46. CNYDem:

    I have a BA in history with a minor in poli-sci, and a JD.

    I’ve been a political junkie all my life, and now I have young snots that are younger than my kids lecturing me about times I lived through. Almost always, they are very wrong.

    Obama is a year younger than me, and I’ve seen Obots call him “post-boomer.”

    Hello? Obama was born in 1961 which means HE IS A BABY-BOOMER!

  47. I skipped through comments on that thread. I don’t see the lights going on. Reminds me of the OJ trial, when his defenders couldn’t agree among themselves whether “he didn’t do it” or “she deserved it”.

    My friend and congressman, Jim McDermott, got a million-dollar bill this week for his adversary’s attorneys fees at the losing end of an 11-year politically motivated legal battle. While all this snaked its way through the court system, we couldn’t say as much as we’d like … but I can say there’s many a price paid for living under a federal bench dominated by the Federalist Society, and many a victim less able to bear it.

    Giving less than our utmost against the Republican nominee would be a very serious matter … and yet circumstances might require it.

    The blog boyz don’t know what they’re doing. Obama doesn’t know what he’s doing … he’s never won a race except by eliminating the opposition.

    Never mind the abuse on the blogs. When Obama labeled Hillary “status quo” right along with Bush, he called me “status quo”. When he says “turn the page”, he dishonors the battles we’ve waged — at life-sized cost — to fend off the Right’s worst at peak momentum. When he employed an orchestrated campaign to paint the Clinton’s as race-baiters and acted like he expected us to buy it, he crossed a line that will be very difficult to un-cross. When he defined the 90’s with warmed-over Limbaugh language, he defined himself as a crap-peddler.

    What to do if BO08 takes the nomination? That’s a hard question. Direct consequences aside, the economic doctrines of “moral hazard” and “regrettable expenditure” may apply.

    What to do with the blog boyz? That’s not even worth thinking about. (And never mind them learning a lesson. They’ll learn new places to place blame, if necessary, but lessons? No.)

  48. RonK–

    I stopped reading KO’s diary at the third comment which was about how Hillary deserved all the abuse she’s been getting because of all the terrible things she has done–no specifics of course. At this point, they are just talking to each other in the echo chamber. Even if they figure out some half-baked strategy to bring Hillary supporters into the Obama fold, they won’t have access to many Hillary supporters to try their strategy on.

  49. “The question is when that will happen, not whether they will support the nominee.” Oh no…not true!!!

    They have gone so far, the first question is WILL they support the nominee (if it’s not Hillary Clinton) not when that will happen.

  50. I too used to visit Daily Kos until I was called every name in the book and told to leave the blog. Hillary was being castigated on a daily basis. When you would try to point out, for the sake of conversation, what was so appealing about Obama’s message (vague to me so I wanted to hear what I may have been missing) you would think I had asked something personal by their response. If I wasn’t directed to the Obama site and told to find out for myself, I was called an f’ing troll and to crawl back under my rock. It became apparent that there was no site monitor and that this discourse was condoned.

    I would never go back. There have been other blogs established that have a more intellectual bent. Is it possible that most of those blogs have been created by twenty somethings because they sure did not have facts at hand. Just the same old rhetoric and regurgitation of Hillary hate.

  51. My solution is: Vote the Democrat! They’re not sociopaths.

    But work? Money? For Obama? No way. Work on policy, money to individual Congressional races (ie, not to Dean. Alas.)

  52. When Obama came out with that Harry & Louise ad just as Edwards dropped out — I thought he was crazy. For so many of us, Health Care is a huge issue. And to use an ad so emotionally loaded. Well, it convinced me to look hard at Hillary’s plan and I’ve never looked back!

  53. That Kid Oakland post? I was never a big fan of his at That Place. Not that I disliked him, I just wasn’t in the habit of reading his stuff.

    But that diary was something else. “Hey, guys, there are a lot of these strange Hillary people, and for some reason they don’t like us…they seem intelligent, but they don’t like us….maybe we need them….maybe we should forgive them…they knew not what they did…let us welcome them back to the Righteous Way without recrimination….”

    It was condescending and cheesy, but at least he wasn’t calling the two nice Hillary supporters castrating racists.

  54. And just a heads up: I am from Massachusetts, the same state that elected Deval whose message was “change”. Pure rhetoric. What we got instead is a mostly absent governor, one who is trying to sell his bio and spends a lot of time out of the state. One of his assistants was arrested in FL on a morals charge with a young boy. The charge was dropped and he is back in the State House. Deval wanted a new car, drapes, the works in his office when he was sworn in then took a couple of weeks off. All I am saying is that falling for the “change” candidate may be buying much of the same. LIke they say, birds of a feather…..

  55. There was an op-ed today in the WashPost by Ruth Marcus advising that Hillary is allowed to stay in the race … as long as she doesn’t say anything bad about BO.

    Just like the FLA and MI delegations should be seated as soon as Hillary quits….

  56. Screw ’em and the horse they rode in on, say I. A bunch of us were in one of the other comments threads talking about writing in Hillary…

    Which is the only thing that will get me to the polls on E-Day. I live in a solid red district with no Democratic candidates for most of the downballot races…

    It’s just too bad. The Obamanation is about to screw a whole bunch of candidates for state elective office, as well, since A LOT of people will stay home if he’s the nominee.

    I still think Hillary can pull it out, but it’d be heartbreaking to watch Obama get the nomination and immediately articles are written in the paper about how they’re having to hire people to do the volunteer jobs, etc. Here’s hoping the True Believers have enough money to make up for the fully half of the Party that’s totally turned off to the Obama campaign.

  57. Poor K.O, I tried to tell him myself what was going on at Kos and he wasn’t hearing it.

  58. DCDemocrat — It’s baptism by total immersion in Kool-Aid, isn’t it?

  59. OK, I not only read Kid Oakland’s piece, I read every one of the 700+ comments.

    I’ve been saying for months that I’d vote for the Democratic nominee no matter who it was. No more. Come November, I’m voting for Hillary. Either she’s on the ballot, or I write her in. That’s it.

    My thanks to all of Obama’s DKos supporters who helped me make this difficult decision.

  60. It’s funny, I keep thinking were it a few years prior, I would have totally had one of those “we’ll all be saved, come to Obama” epiphanies because I guess I’d have been seeking something like that & pretty adept at rationalizing everything else to fit this ideal. As for what I’m doing right now, well, resolving (whatever happens) to try and avoid losing friends and alienating colleagues in the coming months, over this primary, because on a busy day and if overtired.. or if at a bar watching returns as we usually do, I’m apt to shoot my mouth off, and that could be a terrible idea, professionally speaking in particular. The blog boyz are just going to get angrier, whatever happens – it’s what they do. I work with some of those types. (I’m in IT).

    If nothing else this primary makes me realize.. it’s easy in my generation (I’m late 20’s) to just gloss over the fights of previous ones and think women are treated equally and nothing’s in our way, while what’s really happening is casual misogyny just pervades our culture and hardly anyone even notices any more, but now I see the consequences if we don’t fight this stuff. it’s like Albright said – “I think there is a special place in hell for women who don’t help other women.”

    So, thinking about that and currently, listening to the Twilight Singers “blackberry belle” (new to me) which is some sad, depressed shit. Oh well.

  61. They won’t get me to vote for Obama, even if they ask nicely and show a newly developed propensity for politeness. BO reminds me of a Bush/Kerry clone — a chardonay sipping killer who smiles while destroying the economy and burning treaties and igniting the middle east. I love America too much to ever vote for BO even though he calls himself a Democrat.

    I’m looking at the progressive split as a divide between the Dem elite and the labor party. The problem is — dem elites never win, whereas the labor party usually does. We’d be stupid to let the democratic party become the Obama Kerry effete wing, I mean, if we want to win elections. But let the uber smart Clinton be the nominee and not only will we win in November but we’ll probably build the party more than BO ever could and will win for years.

  62. It’s ironic to read a thread dedicated to skewering me and mocking me for my choice of candidate…and especially to see the names of people I consider online friends joining in when I’m not even around.

    is there anybody here who doesn’t see the problem with this thread? ie. You are attacking me in exactly the way you claim you have been attacked.

    Yes, I did have a great conversation with a CA delegate who is on strike from DailyKos in San Jose. I am sure both of us will vote for the nominee of the party. I did not get the sense that she had left DailyKos for good. We got along just fine, but I don’t pretend to be able to read her mind. She walked away, not me.

    I met many other Clinton supporters in San Jose, like I do in real life here In Oakland and SF, people of all backgrounds. I am pretty sure that most of us Democratic activists will rally around the nominee.

    Which is pretty much what I told daria in the comments at dailykos.

  63. You are attacking me in exactly the way you claim you have been attacked.

    Claim to have been attacked? Did you read the comments on your own post?

  64. hey kid–
    “I am sure both of us will vote for the nominee of the party. I did not get the sense that she had left DailyKos for good. ”

    don’t bet on it. just sayin’

  65. ko: She walked away, not me.

    So, you were reaching out, but the bitter beeyotch just walked away?

    This gets better and better.

  66. If you are looking to take offense, then it’s hard to have a conversation.

    1. I don’t talk like that.

    2. She walked away before I could ask her more questions or hear more why she was on strike. That’s just a reality, not an accusation. It was her choice.

    She wasn’t bitter. She went out of her way to say it was great to see young people (ie. the two women I was speaking with wearing Obama buttons) at the the convention.

    Btw, I’m 39, about to be 40. There seems to be some confusion on that. My first campaign that I chose to work on on my own (as opposed to doing so with my parents) was Jesse Jackson in 1987.

    My mom is exactly Senator Clinton’s age. She is a feminist. Community organizer. A faith-based social justice activist. She was a Clinton supporter, but eventually chose to caucus for Obama.

    She and my dad raised me and my sisters to be respectful and invested in women’s empowerment. They are life long Democrats who happen to be for Obama.

    I’m really not interested in slagging anyone here. I don’t think we get anywhere when activists attack each other personally.

  67. k.o. — So it’s all about you, is it? very well, let’s talk about you.

    You mouth is open , your mind is closed, and you’re telling yourself what you want to hear. You are busily poisoning the wells in both camps and burning the bridges between them, and you don’t know you are doing it. The predictable consequences may not be to your liking.

    Some of the lifers will fall in line. Some won’t. The Confluence tends to be a refuge for acute bullshit detectors, disproportionately people of color, and feminists who viscerally know better than to empower their abusers. Your tone-deaf whining will tend not to improve relations with this community.

  68. yowza. Well, yes. I refuse to go back to Kos and reread what I wrote, but I distinctly remember asking in very clear terms, when will respected voices on this site stand up and say, these accusations of race-baiting must STOP. Now. And nobody did shit.

    I was on that site for five years. The trashing of Hillary goes on unabated and now, gradually, we’re seeing these nice calls for unity – unity on your terms, because it benefits your candidate – and I say no way. Where were you to stand up against the character assassination in the first place?

    That’s how I see it. No, we can’t all just get along when you won’t take a stand against the way Hillary has been treated over there. Where was your rec list diary calling out Markos for running those 100% bullshit front page posts claiming the Clinton campaign darkened videos of Obama?

    The well was poisoned at Daily Kos long ago, and the people who did it, and the people who permitted it to happen, need to step up and take responsibility for what they’ve done instead of just pretending like it doesn’t matter to those of us who got the brunt of it. It does matter. Misogyny and character assassination and accusations of racism do matter. They’re not something you can do and then sweep under the rug with no acknowledgment and say, “can’t we all just get along.” I won’t lift a finger to support Obama. And the great thing about The Confluence? I actually am free to say that without getting told to crawl back under a rock, or that I need to take my meds, or called a Hillbot, or hit with a shit ton of troll ratings.

  69. Well that was an interesting read even though I said I would not go there anymore, nor Americablog or TPM. Simply too much bashing if you did not toe the line.

    That said, perhaps maybe some of B.O.’s supporters arerealizing what’s going to happen if Obama is the nominee. Sorry ’bout that: too little too late.

  70. Kid Oakland wants us back? After he insulted Hillary supporters–me for one–for our age and our gender, not just because were pro-Hillary? Is he, excuse the pun, kidding? I went to Daily Kos three or more times a day before kos let the dogs out. When the Edwards supporters were in the ascendance on the rec list, it was mildly annoying and a little funny but those folks almost never attacked the other candidates. As soon as Edwards dropped out the Obama people surged forward and they were mean. Then kos got mean with them and the place was not only unwelcoming but hostile. My visits dropped down to a couple of times a week and I was almost grateful when alegre called the strike to help me break the last connection. Now I have found some wonderful sites like this one and I don’t need to go back, even if peace is declared, so to Kid Oakland I say “too little, too late.”

    As far as what I will do if Obama wins the nomination, not much. There are plenty of other candidates to give my money and time to. If the election gets close, of course I’ll vote for him over McCain just as a form of self protection, but if it’s not close, maybe I’ll vote third party for the first time ever.

  71. KO — True believers like you, and now Kos, led me to leave Daily Kos, and I will never look back.

    One day perhaps you will wake up and recognize it is people like you, who have enabled the Hillary hatred, who have split the party.

    Obama will get my reluctant vote, but that is all, IF he is the nominee. My time and my money go elsewhere, to other Democrats.

    I do not have optimism for the general election. I do not have optimism because my experience with Daily Kos and other obnoxious Obama supporters has led me to believe that Bush was not alone when he said “you’re with us or against you.”

    I was not against you or your ilk. But I was forced to be against you, because as a Hillary supporter I was given no respect, and no choice in the matter.

  72. That should read “you’re with us or against us.” Not that a correction is necessary; you have said it many times.

  73. Get this in your head kiddo Oakland — we have left and we aren’t returning.

    Check out the oozing misogyny at the Orange Satan. But then I’d bet you wouldn’t recognize what we’re talking about.

    Hillary will win and if she doesn’t then Obama will have one of the worst defeats EVER.

    I was in one of the caucus states and I saw the Obamabots up close and personal — and there is no way EVER that I would vote for Obama. He will NEVER be ready to be President. Not one Obamabot could tell us what Obama believed in — what his positions were on ANYTHING. What they did was lie and make distortions about Senator Clinton’s record and her positions on issues. As yet I have no idea what Obama really believes or what he’s really done for his constitutes.

    Real Grown ups can’t vote for an empty suit like Obama.

    It is my belief that ALL the votes from the caucus states should be tossed out — eliminated. If the state democratic party wants to send delegates then they need to run a real primary — one that cannot be gamed by Obamabots.

  74. F*ck Kos, Dean, Pelosi and anyone who promote obama. I am done with them all. I wil vote for the true American hero, Mr McCain, no doubt. Theer is nothing they can do to convince me. Nothing. It is done. and I am done with democratic party if they nominate obama.

  75. oh, forgot to write: FU to Kid Oakland.

  76. Kid Oakland: There is a time when so much damage is done that it doesn’t matter. The Obamadroids have crossed a line in the sand, and they’re going to reap the whirlwind. We have been chased across the web like hated refugees, and our anger is now out of control. Have fun trying to make Obama president without us, should he get the nomination, because that project is yours. And should you succeed, expect lots of, “We told you so,” when he starts to sell the progressive movement down the river (yes, ron k, the river of Kool-Aid.) ‘Cuz that’s just what’s going to happen.

  77. So the “real” Democrats have to chase around all over the net to get someone to engage them. What is KO doing with a press pass? This explains a great deal on what is going on with O and the press. Some of us were trying to explain in the fall of last year that one does not alienate future allies, burn bridges, or my favorite foul ones own nest.

    Looking at the ruins of Orange, TPM and Ameriblab, I would advise coming up with a new business plan such as hiring editors with an emotional age over 12. This is actually hilarious if you can forgive them for being such asses, but forgiveness does not mean unification around Rev Obama.

    The saddest part is this same crap is playing out at the local level for Dems all over the country. It is going to affect local races because they are having trouble raising money which of course is the result of chasing off one half of your party. The stupidity is breathtaking.

  78. Hillary supporters have taken so much abuse on many sites, that it is easy to understand why they now react like, well, Obama supporters.

    I have been driven to tears a few times on pro-obama sites because of attacks. And I have been called all the names in the book.

    I used to really want a Clinton/Obama ticket. Now, no way, no how. I will never vote for him – for many reasons, one being his supporters. (And have you noticed how similar his supporters are to his minister?)

    I would rather write in Hillary, sit it out, or vote McCain. Obama will never get my vote. And sites that promote him, and trash Clinton, and her supporters will never get my *business*.

    It is our right to discuss and question a candidate for president. What is not ok is to be attacked personally for vetting our candidate.

  79. *for vetting the candidates*

  80. Words cannot express how pissed off I get when I think of how the Clintons and the supporters have been treated by the DNC, the MSM and many in the blogosphere. I am finished with all of them. I have boycotted them and will not return. My family of four will stay home in NOV if Hillary is not the nominee. This has all been a sham and has shown us how hypocritical, infantile and deceptive many in our party can be. I will not reward them in any way. They are going to pay for this abuse. ANd yes, I take it personally! If they can’t understand this, I do not give a damn ! I still believe in democracy!

  81. Sara in Italy, I will be arriving in Italy for 4 months. (le Marche in Fano). Where are you in Italy? Italians love to discuss politics, how are they sizing up Obama and Hillary? Prepare me.

  82. It’s all as predictable as yesterday’s weather. You beat the crap out of someone, possibly for years, then you find that you’re in their will (did I mention that they’re wealthy?) and they’re on the way THIS VERY MINUTE to their lawyer’s office, and you put two and two together. Sorry, ol’ chap! It was all just fun and games, wasn’t it? Let’s go have a drink…yes, it’s on me!

    My perspective on all of this is a little different, in that I would vote for the lying ol’ sack of blather if he is the nominee, largely because the prospect of permanent war everywhere in the world would put a crimp in my plans to travel the globe when I retire. But let’s not imagine for a moment that KO’s sentiments are genuine or that the represent any genuine pre-contrition (much less the real deal) from a bunch of people who have always been triumphalists by nature (it’s part of their weird messianism), and now think they have a real triumph looming.

    BTW, USA Today (I can’t help it, it’s all I had to read this morning) had an interesting article about the importance of the NC primary. I think they pulled the idea out of their ass, but I still found it reassuring: that early May primary is the test for the continued viability of the Clinton campaign. i was glad to read that, even though she’s down in NC, because that’s a long ways from now, and it’s a state where she can make up ground, especially if Edwards endorses her or at least doesn’t endorse the Hopester. Although the prospect of another month of hostile appeals to Hillary to quit the race will be like one big fingernail on an infinite chalkboard.

  83. So, Kid Oakland was “surprised” that some Hillary supporters were on strike against the foul cesspool of hatred and misogyny that he “front pages” on? Why? Does he think that they should just love being called names and humiliated by a bunch of high school morons for daring to prefer an experienced and qualified woman who has dedicated her life to the Democratic Party and progressive causes over a PR campaign masquerading as a “grassroots movement?” And, in any event, what’s so special about DK anyway, that every active Democrat “should” be going there? OK, it was basically the first Democratic blog, but being the first doesn’t mean being the best, or even being any good at all. DK SUCKS, and more and more people are beginning to recognize this fact. Markos is a clown; the stunt he pulled claiming that Hillary had “darkened” an image of Obama marks him permanently as a deranged, conspiracy-theorist, laughing-stock idiot. Personally, I’m not “on strike” or “boycotting” that POS site, because those terms imply that there is something that could be said or done that would make me go back. But there isn’t. The place is dead to me, like a broken link.

    I can’t imagine anything more disingenuous and transparently self-serving than an Obama supporter, who has either engaged in personally, tacitly encouraged, or conveniently overlooked, months and months of vile Hillary hatred and misogyny, and viscious, brutal attacks on her supporters, at DK and eleswhere, now coming around and asking “Why can’t we all get along?” I’ll tell you why: look in the mirror.

  84. Personally, I’m not “on strike” or “boycotting” that POS site, because those terms imply that there is something that could be said or done that would make me go back. But there isn’t. The place is dead to me, like a broken link.

    I can’t imagine anything more disingenuous and transparently self-serving than an Obama supporter, who has either engaged in personally, tacitly encouraged, or conveniently overlooked, months and months of vile Hillary hatred and misogyny, and viscious, brutal attacks on her supporters, at DK and eleswhere, now coming around and asking “Why can’t we all get along?” I’ll tell you why: look in the mirror.

    Thank you VERY much…you put it very succinctly…and I completely, utterly AGREE!

    This joker is so out of touch from Clinton supporters, that he’s going to be having an epiphany sooner, than later about the ridiculous bubble he and other obamanation supporters are residing in.

  85. Joelarama, on April 3rd, 2008 at 4:03 am Said:
    KO — True believers like you, and now Kos, led me to leave Daily Kos, and I will never look back.

    One day perhaps you will wake up and recognize it is people like you, who have enabled the Hillary hatred, who have split the party.

    Obama will get my reluctant vote, but that is all, IF he is the nominee. My time and my money go elsewhere, to other Democrats.

    I do not have optimism for the general election. I do not have optimism because my experience with Daily Kos and other obnoxious Obama supporters has led me to believe that Bush was not alone when he said “you’re with us or against you.”

    I was not against you or your ilk. But I was forced to be against you, because as a Hillary supporter I was given no respect, and no choice in the matter.


    I respect your right to vote, but please reconsider voting for obama…why be part of something that is going to harm America?

    A vote for obama is real….a symbolic vote (writing Hillary’s name in etc) is at least not causing any harm.

  86. kid oakland, on April 3rd, 2008 at 1:31 am Said:
    It’s ironic to read a thread dedicated to skewering me and mocking me for my choice of candidate…and especially to see the names of people I consider online friends joining in when I’m not even around.

    is there anybody here who doesn’t see the problem with this thread? ie. You are attacking me in exactly the way you claim you have been attacked.

    Man, you are seriously wearing blinders, and a filter of some sort to read ANY of these particular comments, and consider it being “skewered” or “attacked” or “mocked.”

    As a previous poster had written, have you READ the comments on your thread?

    Insinuating Hillary and Bill are racists…the most disingenuous, and fractious political manuevering is DISGUSTING..not “just politics” but DISGUSTING. And that’s even if you’re smart enough to realize what Obama has done to them by playing the race card. “Harlem is not Bill Clinton’s backyard; it is not his plantation, underscore plantation” Feb 4th, Sen Bill Perkins.

    Sorry “Kidoakland” but racism in ANY direction/form is UNACCEPTABLE; that is what the Democratic Party stands for.

    “skewered” “mocked” “attacked”

    Man you must be as whimpy as Obama.
    (Yes, that was actually an insult, just so you know the difference.)

  87. DCDemocrat: “when he starts to sell the progressive movement down the river” Why, BO08 will be as progressive as, as, as….um…let’s see…oh yeah, I remember now! Ronald Reagan.

  88. The question is not directed to me, but I do have one possible answer: voting for the lesser of two evils gets you less evil. If that’s the best that can be done, well then there we are. My gut says give Obama the finger in November. My head says putting Senator Strangelove into the White House probably means World War III, and probably isn’t worth it.

    Although never a “kossack,” I did read the site now and then, even when it was generating more heat than light, which was almost all the time. I too cannot say I’m “boycotting.” I’m not reading it again, period. And I find it humorous that Kid Oakland, who I regarded as reasonably level-headed (you know, not a spittle-flecking lunatic or anything), is here to present his personal anti-sexist pro-unity bona fides on behalf of Obama to people that have been the victims of vicious misogyny, race-baiting, and personal invective from Obama’s campaign and supporters.

  89. Destardi — I am a Democrat, and a good one, no matter what Kos has labeled me and others like me. I will of course vote for Obama over McCain. Hillary is my first choice.

  90. Kid Oakland,

    I have been neither rude nor dismissive of you. And I have never attacked you.

    Your candidate’s surrogates and supporters have behaved shamefully. They continue to do so. Your candidate will bear the consequences.

    I was serious about my deal. You may not agree that what’s at stake is holding onto Dem majorities and seeing Dems downticket get elected, as well as getting a Dem in the White House.

    I would suggest, based on my experience, including the phonecalling I’ve been doing on behalf of Sen. Clinton, that I’m right. I don’t ask people if they’re angry at the treatment the senator has been getting—they just tell me.

    These are registered Democrats, sir. And they are pissed. They’re not trying to decide between these two candidates; they’re trying to decide between voting and not voting this fall. Or just voting for McCain and letting the party smash itself to pieces trying to place blame.

    I take you at your word that your outstretched hand is sincere. I’ve offered my hand with the conditions I’ve outlined.

    As I see it, if things go the way many Obama supporters assume, your candidate loses, the party splits, there’s a possibility there will be no more Dem majorities nationally as well as in states and cities, and a new generation of young Dem politicians just starting out may find their careers cut short because people decide to stay home.

    Get Sen. Clinton as the nominee and we _all_ work toward a huge win in the fall. We take the seats vacated by retiring Republicans, bolster or create majorities or strong minorities from the Senate and House all the way down to city and county councils.

    Please don’t give me any crap about the good of the party and the good of the nation. If those things truly mattered to Sen. Obama’s surrogates and supporters, then we wouldn’t be at this point. This is about power and we all know it.

    This is not a closed conversation, sir. I’m more than willing to continue the discussion.



    P.S. Yes, that really is my name.

  91. Kid Oakland: If you are looking to take offense, then it’s hard to have a conversation.

    Yeah, no shit. You might want to pass on this little pearl of wisdom to your compatriots at DKos.

  92. I, for one, will not vote for or help Obama in any way if he is the democratic nominee. I can’t see myself voting for McCain, but I can see myself writing in Hillary’s name, or voting for Nader in protest. When I tell some of my friends who are Obama supporters this, they look at me in horror. And mind you, some of these same friends voted for Nader in 2000 against Gore, and they look at me as if I’m a traitor to the cause. Puhleeze.

    I agree with the posters who say KO’s post was disingenuous. He’s just trying to make nice so we’ll fall in line. Well, forget it! I held my nose and voted for Kerry in 2004 and gave and raised money for him, but I’m not doing that for Obama. He, his campaign, and his supporters have completely alienated me. So if anyone has divided the Democratic Party, it’s the Obama crowd, not Hillary and Bill Clinton as the Obamabots like to claim over and over again in their Obama echo chamber.

  93. Dear Kid Oakland:

    I left Daily Kos before alegre called the strike, because I could no longer bear being treated like an idiot or worse every time I dared to make a pro-Clinton statement in a comment thread., or to defend someone else who was being swarmed by Obama supporters. I’d been faithfully visting, commenting and occasionally writing diaries there for four years.

    I can’t see myself going back to DK after the primaries, as kos himself suggested would happen when I e-mailed him in despair over what was happening. “What would you have me do?” he asked. “It will get better after the primaries.”

    It won’t. Too many people who thought they were part of a COMMUNITY were treated too badly.

    I started the primary season a Clinton supporter, but generally open to Obama. I assumed that if Obama got the nomination, I would vote for and work for him with enthusiasm.

    Not anymore. I’ll never vote for McCain. I’ve been voting Democratic for President for too long (since 1976) to feel comfortable about not voting at all. So in the end, Obama can probably “count” on my vote. But he shouldn’t count on my money, or my work.

    Before you can unite a country, you have to be able to unite a party. Obama has made no effort to unite Democrats except to demand a premature end to primaries. He’s tolerated increasing amounts of abusive conduct by his supporters, all the while claiming that HE is the victim of abusive conduct.

    I am 52 years old and a diehard Democrat. If I’d never been a member of Daily Kos, I’d probably have a higher opinion of Obama than I do right now. But I was, and I don’t. I don’t want John McCain to be president, but you should not assume, kid oakland, that everyone will fall in line behind Obama if he does get the nomination. You may ultimately get some if not most of our votes, but don’t expect our energy or our passion or our trust. Obama and his supporters are going to have to do some work to get those.

    Perhaps you think that Obama doesn’t need those, any more than he needs FLA or MI to win the GE. Maybe you think that Obama will create so many new supporters that you don’t need us tired old Democrats who have been faithfully supporting Democratic nominees through thick and thin for all these years.

    Maybe you’ll luck out, and it will be true. But you know what they say about birds in the hand. You’ve let a lot of birds out of your hands. You’re going to need to find twice as many birds in the bush.


  94. Well said as always, litigatormom. You speak my feelings.

  95. Will all of you Clinton supporters follow me here


    and make a contribution to Hillary’s campaign in KO’s honor.

    Then riverdaughter can start a new thread where we specify
    our contribution amounts.

    We don’t just bitch. We bitchin’ GIVE!

  96. I don’t think Obama is prepared to do the heavy puckering up and serious, genuine, earnest apologizing to the Clintons (not to mention her staunch supporters) — for starters — necessary to earn even a tacit vote from me in November.

    Yep, it’s THAT bad. And as someone earlier remarked: blame lies NOT at the doorstep of Bill and Hillary.

    btw – As an Edwards supporter who frequented DK, I certainly recall how obnoxious a growing number of Obama supporters were becoming of John’s cadidacy and his supporters. Endless calls for him to step aside already.

    Of course, upon announcement Edwards would officially suspend his campaign, suddenly, the level of arrogance subsided and we were treated to an array of a–kissing. Though nothing compares to the likes of the enmity continuously leveled against Senator Clinton and her supporters. Beyond. The. Pale.

  97. […] Well, well, well. Isn’t this interesting? I just got home from a long day and started surfing around the net to see what’s happening.  Via Lambert at […] […]

  98. I do hope Obama and his surrogates—after trashing Bill and Hillary Clinton as “racists” and other false accusations, will NOT expect the Clintons to help campaign in the fall.

    Kid Oakland and his “friends” have already said the Clintons are not WORTHY of that honor.

    And of course, my vote–given that KO thinks I’m “under-educated, blue collar” (I only have TWO graduate degrees)—-is not worthy of the mighty Obama. I couldn’t possibly vote for him, since I didn’t see any tears from him after Katrina.

    Sorry, Oakland. Not happening. Not now, not ever.

    You silly arrogant young guys have been hoist on your own petards.

    Your chickens have come home to roost.

    Now , buzz off, Oakland. NO ONE here gives a rat’s a** what you have to say.

  99. First, I didn’t come here to pick a fight.

    For what it’s worth. I posted here all by my lonesome and took my lumps as they came.

    Do I stand by my posts? Yes, that’s all a blogger can do.
    Have I ever demeaned Clinton supporters in those posts? No.
    Have I ever demeaned Clinton in those posts? No. I’ve disagreed with her campaign’s tactics. I think herstory will favor my side of the argument on that one.

    Do I control dkos or MyDD? No.
    Do I write to the webmasters when I see something egregious on those sites? Yes.
    Do I write bloggers individually about this stuff? Yes.

    Do I think getting bent out of shape over anonymous comments online is worth it? No, there are too many trolls looking to start fights. That’s so clear in the MSM where most people blog. (LA Times pieces routinely get thousands of comments.)
    Do I think inter blog battles are worth it? In general, no.

    Do I support people building new blog communities for like minded bloggers? Yes.

    Do I like be slagged for a blog post? No, no one does. But usually people respond only when I’ve made an argument worth responding to.

    I went to the California Dem Party convention as “Internet Media” after applying like anyone else. I sat amidst bloggers of many different views. I talked to people of many different views. I reported on my experience and some of what I reported hadn’t been covered elsewhere.

    Could the internet media outreach have been more diverse and deep? Yes.
    Did it include pro-Clinton bloggers? Yes.
    Did I reach out to them? Yes, the best I could in a zany environment.

    I left the CA Dem Party convention convinced that Obama will be the nominee. I also learned something more about the depth and experience of HIllary Clinton’s support inside the party. I think those two realities do create a ‘Clinton moment’ where her campaign’s choices, the choices made by her supporters are more important.

    I have argued that the single most powerful characteristic uniting Clinton supporters is an overriding confidence in her effectiveness. That’s still true. Despite her financial woes. Despite how she has managed her campaign. Despite her lack of competitiveness in states like WI and VA and ME and CO.

    We keep forgetting that after months and tens of millions of dollars, Senator Clinton tied for second/third in Iowa. That was the point at which the entire dynamic of this race for the nomination changed.

    I think Bill and Hillary Clinton bear the bulk of the responsibility for that change in tactics post-Iowa. Their choices ultimately, reflect on them and not anyone else.

    I am confident we can have a spirited fight for the nomination and come together in the grassroots. If not fully on the blogs, then as a party.

    I think this is a great time to be a Democrat wherever our stand point. I stand by my blog posts and would politely suggest when commenters claim that I’ve attacked them or valorized people attacking them simply that I’ve been mischaracterzed.

    I’m a friendly guy who does politics offline too.

    I did the Chicago Voices program. Some of the grantees were and are Clinton supporters. I knew that going in.

    I stand by my record.

  100. The Dye is caste – there is no turning back for me. I spent five years at DK, left right after JE suspended his campaign. Like Litigatormom – if I had never been to that site, I might have considered BO a little more than I ultimately did. I am now a rabid eternal supporter of Hillary Clinton. I was born a Democrat, everything that a Democrat stands for is my personal issue – not this Regan effete image of BO(misty vapor). All I ever asked for at DK was information – vetting of BO. I think I went into two clearly marked BO diaries trying to find information. Only two because of language and the nastiness toward Edwards and Clinton. IT was disgusting.

    As time has passed we are getting a clearer picture of BO and it is not pretty, does not instill hope and I can’t support vapor, let alone someone who attacks the Clintons as racists, dishonors them and distorts and ignores real problems with BO.

    Kids post/story is just that – my BS meter works just fine. As I have told Dean, Brazile, Kerry, Kennedy the rouse of disenfranchising ML/FL, the constant calls for Hillary to quit, oh, now it is ok with them if she continues(hm, are they getting emails, letters, calls?) has finally made it impossible for me to vote for BO. He is just not my kind of Democrat – I hate whiney people. I have no faith in his dealing with any issue as I know Hillary will. If she is not the nom – then I will write her name in. I cannot in good conscience do other wise. I will work for Hillary and her campaign til she wins. If she does not, that’s it – nothing else from me.

    Kid – I like to give credit where credit is due – you, kos and the droids showed me attitudes and actions I did not think people of my party could ever have. I have been gone from that site for two months and thankfully found many sane initelligent sites like here and TL. What I can’t understand is why so many of you – droids keep interjecting yourselves at these sites – you still do not understand you have no defense and no audience outside your snake pit of hate. Do you really think anyone here can be fooled or bullied?

  101. kid oakland: I met you in Vegas by the pool of the Riviera. I thought you were interesting and cool, in that dark shades kind of way. I went to YK07 as well. But that’s when the wheels came off. I came away from it convinced that Kossacks weren’t so much pro-Edwards or Obama (he completely failed to distinguish himself. He looked bored with the whole thing) Oddly enough, I was an Edwards supporter until I went to Hillary’s breakout session. For some strange reason, I felt sorry for her when I signed up for it. But after I actually heard her, I was so completely amazed. And I think this is the thing that a lot of Kossacks, including yourself, don’t get.
    If you are in the hard sciences, you see a lot of people give presentations on their work and after a period of time, you quickly figure out who knows what they’re talking about and who is bull$#*&&ing their way through 20 minutes of powerpoint slides. I am telling you that Hillary is the real thing, KO. It’s not just the breadth of her knowledge or the fluidity of the presentation. It is the language she uses to describe what she is talking about. The precision of language is a thing of beauty. I know you appreciate words, KO.
    I think you are trying to mend fences. I believe that you are that kind of person. And I know you didn’t deliberately try to offend us. But there is something about true Obama supporters that is incapable of understanding our support for Hillary. We can’t just switch. Our support for her isn’t shallow. It is based on a kinship in policy and philosophy. We are not anti-Obama, or we weren’t until we were treated like the deltas of a Brave New World.
    So, while your concern is well placed, your understanding is lacking
    We will not accept a nominee whose campaign has gone so far out of its way to dissociate itself from us, the undesirables of the Democratic party. We like Clinton, genuinely, and we think she will be better than Obama as president. And we feel that she is getting a raw deal because her critical mass is being held hostage to Obama. That is, the thumbs have been on the scales for Obama (or it might have been Edwards. The point is it was certainly anti-Clinton). We resent that our votes don’t count because of MI and FL. We feel that Obama could have gained positive good will mojo by agreeing to waive the rules but he didn’t in order to screw the rest of us.
    I can’t vote for a person like that, KO. I can’t vote for a person who has taken advantage of gender discrimination for his own gain. I can’t vote for a person who has characterized me as a stupid old woman even though I am Obama’s age and I am employed in a field that few people in the world understand. At this point in time, Obama needs to rely on the people who have gotten him this far: coeds, DINKS and AAs. The rest of us have to protect our self-respect. That is more important at the present time than whether he needs me to GOTV for him in the fall. He can definitely forget about any campaigning on his behalf. I know what it is like to feel abused and I won’t tolerate it in a presidential candidate. He’s on his own as far as I’m concerned. If he wins the nomination, it will be at the expense of a much better candidate who he presently is not even in the same league.
    That’s a problem KO. Not one that you can solve but I appreciate that you are recognizing that it exists.
    In our last open comment session in Chicago, I stood up and tried to call attention to the mob rule that had short circuited the Kossacks during the presidential forum the day before. It seemed to me that Kossacks had surrendered their reasoning abiltity to an appeal to their emotions. John Edwards was certainly able to tap into certain trigger words. But he was unable to capture his target audience in the voting population. After he dropped out, DKos gave its alliance to Obama- who seems to be using the same trigger words. But none of it has any relevance, KO. Your target audience is not other Kossacks but people like me and my family. People who have worked hard to do better than their parents but still want the people they came from to be treated fairly. And that is who Obama has deliberately shunned.
    My sig line on DKos, before I was booted for being pro-Clinton, was from Robert Frost’s poem, Choose Something Like a Star and has the following concluding lines:
    So when at times the crowd is swayed
    to carry praise of blame too far
    we may choose something like a star
    To stay our minds on -and be staid
    I saw something in Hillary to stay my mind on and be staid and I am not switching to Obama after the primaries because he has shown me nothing. As for Kos getting us back, I can’t tell what others may do, but I prefer my liberty.

  102. I’ve read all the comments and there are some HRC supporters who say they will vote for Obama in November simply b/c they can’t vote Repub.

    You do know you can write in Hillary, right? (Just wanted to make sure.)

  103. Amen Riverdaughter!

  104. Kid Oakland,

    Okay, you’re not going to answer me. I was just responding to your request for suggestions.

    Anyway, I’m sure you were active in getting Randi Rhodes suspended for her trashtalking of Sen. Clinton and Gerry Ferraro. And making sure that everyone realized that the event in which Ms. Rhodes did her namecalling appears to be a sanctioned Obama campaign fundraiser.

    It’s on the Obama campaign website. http://my.barackobama.com/page/event/detail/4r2cc

    So, thanks for going out there and calling the Obama campaign, Randi Rhodes, and the people who respond to your blog on their bullshit.

    Me? I’m idly wondering how long women will support Sen. Obama once the 527 ad is cut. It’s pretty simple: picture and audio of Ms. Rhodes comments and a single title composited in: An Official Obama Campaign Event.

    That will take people’s minds off Rev. Wright and Mr. Rezko, for sure.



  105. Please pardon me, my opening line got mangled. I was not demanding an answer, Kid Oakland. Just trying to respond and begin a negotation.

  106. Shorter Kid Oakland: mistakes were made, but not by me.

    Even if it’s true, it doesn’t answer the question: why should you be surprized that Hillary supportes don’t want to subject themselves to hatred, misogyny and ridicule at a manure pile of a website where the average age and IQ of the Lord of the Fly posters hovers around 12?

    And, your self-valorizing list of all the great and wonderful things that you think you do doesn’t answer that question, either.

    Obama, his wife, his campaign, and his supporters on DK, other blogs, and elsewhere have subjected Hillary and her supporter to an endless stream of misogyny, false charges of racism, thuggishness, agism, classism, elitism, recycled-discredited-right-wing-attack talking points, and so on. And, yet, even at this late date, and when you purport to be seeking a truce, you still have the unmitigated gall to criticize Hillary for HER campaign tactics.

    Gee, I wonder why some Clinton supporters are reluctant to climb aboard the Good Ship Obama. . . I can’t for the life of me figure it out. . . .

  107. freemansfarm, on April 4th, 2008 at 5:06 pm: Tis a thing of beauty.

  108. No DK. No Obama. It’s Hillary or nothing. I’m already half-ex-DEM. Only Hillary nomination will make me stay.

    And God forbid, if Obama was the nominee and Hillary came knocking on my door asking my vote for Obama. I’ll have to respectfully decline. No matter how much I love and respect Hillary, I can’t vote against my conscious.

    I can’t vote for a man whose moral compass is broken. I can’t vote for a man has not convinced me that he will do what is right on the expense of his personal benefit. I can’t vote for a man that I believe will do such harm to the country because he’s not a man of principal. NO SIr. No Obama. No Way.

  109. I’ve enjoyed reading every one of the comments to this post, even KO’s.

    Like others here, I feel like I was expunged from DKos – not even so much for any overt support of Hillary’s campaign, but because of my feeling (early on) that the well of the Democratic Party was truly being poisoned.

    My biggest concern is, and has been, that the acrimony can’t be salved before the general election. That scares the shit out of me. I’m actually more concerned about gaining a cloture-proof majority in congress than securing the presidency. And I thought that’s what DKos was all about.

    In my last two DKos diaries, Markos himself basically mocked me. I said that he was loosing a genie that he couldn’t put back in the bottle, and that the genie wasn’t benevolent. Apparently, he still doesn’t get just how many former Kossacks have been alienated not only from his own cause, but from the allegedly “progressive” wing of the Democratic Party.

    Note to Paul: this thing has gone way over the top. At this point, I’m not sure that any amount of apologies or reaching out are going to be able to mend the fences or rebuild the bridges that have been burned. It’s amazing to me that neither you nor Markos has yet managed to figure that out.

    Over the years, we’ve all been aghast at the level of hubris exhibited by the Bush criminal cabal. The hubris that’s being expressed at DailyObama (aka the Act Blue ATM) is every bit as bad, if not worse, than the Bush cabal has brought to us. Why?

    Because we were with you, before you decided you didn’t need us. That’s the ultimate hubris.

  110. Kid, I know you’re a very nice person and your heart is unquestionably in the right place. If not for your efforts to bring other voices like mine to YK last year, the event would have meant much less than it was. I will always applaud you for that.

    But the environment at DK is now like that of an abusive relationship. I think we’re all done making excuses for the site leaders and members and we just want out. There’s no going back.

    Asking us to put our hearts and energy into working for Obama is like asking an escapee from an abusive relationship to come back once a week to clean the house “because you always do such a nice job.”

    Some of us may vote for Obama if he’s the nominee, but I don’t see any of us getting on our knees to scrub the floor for him. The “progressive” netroots has convinced us there’s no place for us at the table. We’re just supposed to come in and sweep up the crumbs.

  111. What they don’t understand is that we have been trashed. Not one talking head has strongly come out in support of Hillary when she is bashed and double bashed day in and day out. Most of the MSM is either in Obama’s camp because it is just “so cool” to support a black candidate even if he has nothing but rhetoric to offer and the other half is in the McCain camp because he is such a “hero”. Hillary has been criticized, not for her policies, but for her looks, her age, her laugh, her ankles, her clapping, and her relation to Bill. Her policies are spot on, well thought out and presented but they are never discussed. Obama is a snob, he has little connection to the female or blue collar voters who support Hillary. His policies are vague and he is counting on his aura to clinch the nomination. His campaign was the first to inject race and Hillary is paying the price. No we won’t forget in Nov and I will not support him if I feel he has won this without all votes counted.

  112. […] once again to the fainting couch.  Poor dear. Just a little over a week ago, Kid was making noises about working on some kind of rapproachment with Clinton supporters in the hopes that we would come […]

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