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    • The Law of Equal Treatment
      Last Friday I wrote an article on the idea that if a society has a rule or duty, it must apply to everyone in the applicable situation, no matter who they are, even if it’s someone you love. It was interesting to me that most of the commenters disagreed. Perhaps this is my fault in choosing the famous example of a German general executing his own son for aba […]
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Clarification

In the post below, How Power Works, I am in no way advocating that anyone vote for McCain. Voting for a Republican in this day and age is an anathema to me. Nor am I saying that the state of the economy, Iraq war, Supreme Court are not important to me. (However, I would like to point out to you young, nubile female Obamaphiles who think the world revolves around abortion rights that it was probably not the best strategy in the world to repeatedly call us old women. Because as you know, old women generally do not worry overmuch about unplanned pregnancies and they can usually pay for their daughters to go elsewhere if necessary. So, that whole, has-been feminism thing to make us feel unsexy and uncool probably backfired a bit.)

No, if Obama wins the nomination by excising two states, and by extension NY, NJ, CA, AZ, MA, OH etc, what I envision is this: I am going to go vote this November for Linda Stender in NJ-07 and various and sundry municipal positions. But the top spots will remain uncast until the end. Then, I will stand there in front of the Sequoia eVoting machine, the left hand hovering over Obama’s name, the right hand hovering over the “Cast Ballot” button, and at this point in time, I have no idea what is going to happen. BUT, I figure that the Republicans are unpopular this year and Barack has SOOO much enthusiastic support among the college aged crowd, who will certainly not be too busy studying to carry out most of the GOTV activities, that he probably won’t need my vote anyway.

I took a peek at TPM today and it looks like the Obamaphiles are in full spittle mode, misinterpreting the polls that say that 28% of all Clinton supporters would vote for McCain if Obama is on the ballot. This is not what I am advocating at all. But there is a great deal of uncertainty about what I *will* do, no doubt about that. And the 28% of Democrats who are considering McCain are probably a lot like my mother. She voted for Bush twice, but she is a registered Democrat and this year, she is planning to vote for Clinton in the PA primary. She’d vote for her in the general too except that won’t be possible if the Obama campaign manages to cut out 29 million voters in Florida and Michigan and win on the 48 state strategy.

What puzzles me is how it is that any Democratic blogger would consider this prospect, um, Democratic. Or better yet, think it is a good idea as long as his candidate wins. But there you go, they are not so much pro-Obama as anti-Clinton. In fact, I rarely read anything on their pages that promote Obama’s policies. What they are mostly about is tearing Clinton down.

So, there you have it. My vote is uncertain. As someone in the comments said, Obama is going to have do a lot of ass kissing to get my vote. I don’t know where he will find the time to court the Democrats all over again at that stage of the campaign but that’s *his* problem. In all my years of voting, going back to 1980, I can not ever recall having such a visceral dislike of a candidate. And this feeling was not generated by anything Clinton has said or not said. her campaign has been rather tame. Obama has done this to himself. But in the past, even when the nominee wasn’t my first choice, I learned to like him. Not this time. This time, I will be voting under duress and my left hand may not know what my right hand is doing.

Some good news: It looks like some wealthy patrons of the party have sent a letter to Nancy Pelosi asking her to zip it. Zip it good.

Update: Obama is having a hissy fit over the letter. Demands that Hillary make them take it back. Hmmm, I hope she’s taken a lesson from James Carville’s playbook and doesn’t apologize for anything. For all we know, she had nothing to do with it. Besides, it’s *their* money.  They can do with it what they want.  They can help Nancy get rid of the Republicans that are getting in her way or Nancy can raise funds from some other source and they’ll go to Paris for the spring.

93 Responses

  1. You don’t have to vote McCain, you can write in Hillary. Still a Democratic vote. I plan to show all these liberal-boy-punks that they can’t go on a 3 month gang-rape marathon, using the most horribly misogynistic language I’ve ever seen in politics, and not face consequences. These punks will get their comeuppance in November. Just WATCH the wimminz not play kissy nice make-up with the self-important little women-hating punk boys of Left Blogistan.

    And no – i’m not going to give a list of links proving the misogyny. I’m beyond defending my viewpoint. Game over. Done. We can talk again next primary cycle. Till then, the little liberal punk boys of Left Blogistan can EAT IT!!!

    https://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/2008/03/26/how-power-works/#comment-6178

  2. I am sorry that I suggested McCain was a good alternative. I do think I will write in Hillary – if I can’t find it in my heart to vote for a Democrat presidential offering.

    I think we are all pretty tired of the treatment Hillary has been receiving – it is beyond not getting a break. Sometimes a little rant helps everyone get it out – but thanks so much for writing this clarification. I’ve really appreciated your ability to remind us not to give up.

  3. Re: those “young, nubile Obamaphiles”

    I guess they aren’t planning on getting old?

    I’m white, male and not-young, not-old. I don’t like being taken for granted either.

    If they want our votes, maybe they shouldn’t try so hard to make us feel unwelcome.

  4. China: I like your spiwit. Your dewwing do.

  5. rd wrote: “In all my years of voting, going back to 1980, I can not ever recall having such a visceral dislike of a candidate.”

    I never thought about it that way before. I’ve been voting since 1972. I had visceral dislike of Richard Nixon that year, but I honestly think I dislike Obama more. The more I find out about him, the less I like him. To be honest, hearing his voice makes my flesh crawl. That is how bad it has gotten.

  6. Visceral dislike. Perfect description. I wish I could say I’m OK with an Obama candidacy, but I’m not.

    The amazing thing is (and tucsonLynn will authenticate this comment) I was not a Hillary fan as late as January. How could Obama so turn me off in three months that I will only vote for Hillary – God willing in the GE on the top of the ticket…but as a write-in if I have to.

    Sorry. That’s the way it is. And my husband agrees!

  7. As an Arizona voter, I’m in a position where my vote in the general election won’t matter because McCain will carry the state by a large margin. I’ve decided that if Obama is the Democratic Party nominee, he won’t get my vote and neither will McCain. I will write in Hillary Clinton.

    As for the down ticket, it will be straight Dem.

  8. I so agree with you. Unlike you, who is a babe in the woods, I really AM an old woman (not that I appreciate the insults either). I’ve been voting for Democrats since 1964 when I cast my vote for Lyndon B. Johnson. I have never failed to vote and in the last two elections I’ve given money, made phone calls, canvassed up and down rutted mountain roads in the Appalachians and I’ve fought and fought for Democrats. When Howard Dean got trashed in the primaries by his opponents in 2004, including John Kerry, who compared him to Osama bin Laden, I pulled myself together and worked for Kerry anyway. I didn’t really like him but I knocked my brains out for him until the bitter end. His bumpersticker is still on my car.

    However, I too have a visceral dislike of Obama that is now so intense that I do not think I could bring myself to vote for him. Since my position would have horrified me coming from anyone else over the last forty five years, I am truly speechless at my own perfidy. Nevertheless, I honestly think I’d rather have McCain than Obama. The only thing that would make me change my mind would be if McCain ran with Lieberman. That might make me pull the Obama lever. I don’t know if anything else would.

  9. Great post!
    But I hope we are not going to get in the habit of apologizing for free speech, and passion. I hear BO wants Hillary to apologize for someone else’s letter to Pelosi.
    I understand your hesitancy, and the holding your nose vote. I have no such problems, nor does my neighborhood of hillary yard signs planted by homeowners of your mom’s generation.
    There are a couple of exDems for Reagan, exDems for Anderson, WWII vets, Namvets, and while we are not the big contributors who got Pelosi’s attention, we will have NO problem with changing parties if Hillary is not on that ticket…

  10. If we’ve learned anything since 2000, it’s that likability isn’t the issue. It’s nice when you can get a likable person who’s also a good president (like Bill Clinton), but when push comes to shove you need the good-president part and you can find your friends elsewhere. My True Confession is that I don’t find Hillary especially likable–I admire her and I think she would/will be a great president, but she’d be in the middle of the likability pack if I rated all of the candidates from this primary season. (I’d put Richardson on top, and to be sure, I’d put Clinton way above Obama as I know him today.)

    I suspect that pressuring the superdelegates by threatening not to support Obama in November won’t work, because that’s arguably no skin off their backs if he loses…by and large, these are people who are in positions of power anyway, with or without a Democratic president. Rather, I would make the more generic Clinton-over-Obama case to them, and if we lose, Round Two is to threaten the Candidate Himself: if he doesn’t right every single wrong in his attitude, and in the party’s ridiculous mechanics, bad stuff will happen. He’s the only person who would take that threat seriously, because it’s his ass in the balance.

  11. derridog: It’s amazing isn’t it? I was a Clarkie in 2004 but I got over it and voted Kerry without much trouble. He struck me as a bit pedantic but he was a polymath compared to Bush.
    And if Obama had a record of accomplishments that I might be able to latch onto as compensation for being completely thrown under the bus by his campaign and supporters, I would resign myself to it and think it was an acceptable trade-off. But he has *nothing* for me to latch onto. That I think is the thing that is fueling this dislike. It’s one thing to act like a cocky, arrogant, aggressive asshole fighting for the nomination. It’s quite another thing to be a cocky, arrogant, aggressive asshole when you have no right to be. He’s no Lyndon Johnson, if you know what I mean (and I *know* you do).

  12. I started voting in l980 also. It is one thing to have a visceral dislike of the Republican candidate, I know that I did for Reagan . This is different. I really cannot listen to Obama. I have never felt that way about any Democrat before. I really do not know if it is that I’m more personally invested in Hillary and so Obama’s horrible attacks cut me to my core, or if he is just more of an idiot.
    It is the same with the cavalier way that he refuses to allow Michigan and Florida to vote. In 2000 and 2004, part of my belief in American democracy died. I was shell-shocked, but it was the Republican Party (and sadly for this lawyer the Supreme Court) that disappointed me. Now, it is my party that is betraying me.

  13. That’s exactly the problem. Obama has done nothing to show that he’s qualified to be President. He doesn’t even seem to have any real policies or any issues that he is passionate about. He is selling himself, his personality–that’s it. That just isn’t enough for me. I honestly would rather have McCain. At least I’d know what I was getting. I can’t vote for Obama because I suspect he will try to privatize social security, get us into another war, and not support rights for women or gays. I don’t like him and I don’t like his advisors. I don’t even like his wife.

  14. Honora: I didn’t always detest Obama. Even as recently as February, I thought it would be just like any other year. I wouldn’t much like the guy but most of my animosity was directed at his supporters, not Obama himself. but he has failed to distinguish himself in every possible way except for the ability to trample all over the people who don’t support him. The FL and MI revote squelching was the last straw.

  15. Bostonboomer – you and riverdaughter put it the “reaction” best — “visceral dislike” indeed.

    I’ve no intentions of voting for McCain. However …

    As I said before, I just don’t see it happening — me and Obama. And he can certainly thank himself along with his “spirited” advisors, surrogates, etc. for their input. Changing my current opinion and perception of his candidacy for president — or any elected position, at this point — well, let’s just say he’ll need to summon all the “hope” he can muster to “change” my opinion.

  16. rd, you were a Clarkie in ’04? No wonder I like you. That, and the friendly environment you’ve created.

  17. derridog and riverdaugther… I am old enough to remember the Johnson years and I was a Clarkie beginning in September, 2003 – went to NH inJanuary (Brrrr) 2004 and my husband and I fell in behind Kerry when needed us (stood out in the freezing cold in PA to “watch” the polls as Attorneys for Kerry (what a joke!).

    No more! We will declare as independents in the next months and vote (or not!) as Americans in November!

  18. I recall when I first started to personally dislike Obama, apart from all of the virulent woman-hatred from his blogging minions. It was when he said “You’re likeable enough.” Oh – so *that’s* who you really are! It was a quick, but deeply revealing glimpse of what’s inside.

    Then, when everyone else dropped out, and we had the first 1-on-1 debate. Remember Obama’s continual body posture? Chin up; eyes looking down in Hillary’s general direction; but never actually looking directly at her; looking down and peripherally towards her, never directly speaking to her eye-to-eye.

    It was the body language version of the “you’re likeable enough” comment. The body language just betrayed his completely dismissive and contemptible attitude towards her.

    I’m no naive idiot. I’m sure HRC feels the same way about him. But what was different in all those debates is that she knew she had to get OVER herself and her negative feelings. She ALWAYS showed him respect by talking straight into his eyes. She never lifted her chin to gaze down her nose in his general direction. And she held her nose and even reached out to grab his hand to show solidarity.

    For me, at a visceral personal level, it is what was betrayed about each person’s inner emotional maturity in these debates that sealed the deal for me. I just fell in love w/ HRC and began to hate the Hope-Pope.

    And then all the media gang-raping and Obama not mentioning a word to halt it – oh yeah, that too. He could have SOOOOO swooned me there. The gallant male coming to the rescue and saying “David Schuster – you are despicable for saying that Hillary is ‘pimping out’ her own daughter!” Had he done this, I probably could not have helped falling in love w/ the gallant knight.

    Just shows his lack of emotional maturity. He can’t get over his own contempt for her. HRC shows time and time again she can let these sort of personal things go. Whatever inner feelings of rage I’m sure she has, she also has the self-possessed control to keep it in check. That’s what I want in a leader.

  19. riverdaughter: Perhaps you’ve encountered many of the same BO supporters I have. Inhabitants of a land where the obnoxiousness knows no bounds, it seems.

  20. Chinaberry, That’s a great post. You are very insightful.

  21. bostonboomer;

    You’re absolutely correct on your view of Obama’s passion.

  22. China: Yes, if he had stepped up and said that the misogynism was over the top, he could have scored points. But nooooo, he piled on.
    Jerk

  23. speaking of cocky arrogant aggressive assholes……haven’t we been dealing with one for seven long years now? who’s the real bush lite?

  24. I’m listening to Hillary right now on Fox News’ Greta vS show. She’s doing a great job.

  25. Just in case I seem to be saying anything to the contrary, I myself am NOT above Obama. I am exactly as emotionally immature as him. When in the company of others and the talk turns to politics, I simply cannot control myself. The contempt I have for him just drips off me.

    And that’s exactly why I would SUCK as president. You can’t be like me and be prez. Obama and I are EXACTLY who you don’t want to be prez. If I were in a room w/ Obama, I would do EXACTLY what he did – bend over backwards to avoid having to shake his hand. Not gonna happen.

    I am petty and low but I’ve found a place in life in which I can be a productive member of society despite this failure. I am sick-to-my-stomach at the thought of someone with my same inner emotional immaturity becoming president.

  26. “I rarely read anything on their pages that promote Obama’s policies.”

    It’s interesting to see a Democrat like yourself utter this sentiment. It’s honest and refreshing. I’m an independent conservative who generally votes Republican. And I have to admit, I never thought I’d see the day when Hillary would be seen in my mind as the better Democratic candidate. But she really is.

    The more I try to find out about Obama, the more I’m worried for this country. How can someone with so little substance obtain an almost rock star status based on promises? If the Democrats are getting buyers remorse, I think I’m beginning to understand why. Obama needs more substance than a “no” vote.

  27. This is quite the blog! The first time I linked to it I attracted a troll!!!! That’s amazing. This must be the center of the HillaryUniverse, of which I am a proud nebula (vague, gaseous, but mostly empty.)

  28. You know folks I am not personally invested in Hillary Clinton. I preferred Edwards to start with because I just didn’t know that Hillary was such a dynamic candidate until I watched several of her speeches. She tells it pretty much straight up which I admire. I feel that she would be by far the best president. By far.

    On that same token I am from Northeast Texas and we are prospering. My region is doing very well. Having a republican governor, no state income tax and a republican dominated state congress has been no detriment to us. I always vote democratic for the principle of the ideology anyway. A John McCain presidency in conjunction with a democratic congress seems like it could be a winning situation. McCain isn’t crazy or for 100 years of war as many people are trying to say. From what I’ve heard from the guy he is a very impressive candidate and unlike Obama he is someone with a proven track record of bipartisanship, which is one of the reasons wingers dislike him so much.

    I guess what I am saying is that the only way to hold the DNC accountable for the mess they’ve created by propping up a lying nitwit is by voting for the opposition. When I took political science many years ago my professor believed that you vote a straight ticket. I have always done that even before taking the course. It is logical. If they don’t hold up their end of the bargain then you vote against them the next time. Starting with Daschle the democratic party has capitulated to the republicans at every opportunity. Even when they have the majority they don’t do anything about the lying, corruption, signing statements, torture, war, etc. Frankly, I am sick of supporting a party that only pays lip service to their ideas. Pelosi and the whole bunch seem to be worried more about their poll numbers than doing what is right. Bush should have been impeached long ago. Yet, the SOB is still wreaking havoc. At this juncture I am still planning on voting for dems but I might change my mind. After all, the only way let the DNC know that they aren’t representing me is to vote for someone else. I may not like the republican agenda but at least I know where I stand and where they stand. With Obama and the other nitwits I no longer know where they stand. What I find most interesting is that while republicans are supposed to be the racists, sexists and homophobes you find that republicans actually elect and appoint to high office both women and minorities. In this regard they do just as well as democrats do. It just isn’t good enough for my tastes. This election has been a real eye opener concerning womens issues (which is why I voted for Kay Bailey Hutchinson when she originally ran) and gay issues. I just don’t think the democratic party’s rhetoric matches reality. Just like Obama’s.

  29. And by the way, Riverdaughter – you and Anglachel have saved my sanity. Thank you so much for this blog. I’m kinda new to this whole political blog stuff. I read TPM for all my “liberal” news for about six months.

    I was so fed up with everything that I was seeing at TPM and in the MSM that one day I did a Google search for “Clinton” and “misogyny”. After poking around a while, I found Anglachel which led me here.

    HALLELUJA!!! I can literally feel the anger dissipating by participating here. Now, all I have left is cold calculating revenge (which I have no intention of ridding myself of).

  30. riverdaughter has saved my sanity too. I’m so much calmer and happier now than at that awful cheetos place.

    jay– Think back to 2000. Americans elected a man who knew nothing about foreign policy or government who had never traveled, who had no ideas of his own, whose big selling point was people wanted to have a beer with him. And look what happened. That’s who Obama is, minus the family power and wealth. He’s a nobody, a nothing, with a “nice” personality. I don’t see it, but the Obamabots do.

    Right now Karl Rove is on Fox News talking about all the horrendous things that the Republicans can do to The Precious.

  31. For myself, the likeable enough crack didn’t sit well, but I didn’t fall into visceral dislike until “the snub.” That was so intentional and then his schoolyard excuse about turning to answer a question from McCaskill was so lame. It reminded me of something my kids would say when they were caught doing something flat out rude.

  32. rd: “Obama is going to have do a lot of ass kissing to get my vote”

    I am not sure what he would have to do. Some other transcendental speech? Expect no mea culpa, or at least not a sincere one….

  33. I am stunned by your sheer honesty.
    Wow.
    As a current Edwards supporter–yes, I still believe he shoulda coulda woulda been a nominee 20 points ahead–I blame Obama for Edwards having to bow it.

    And for so much more.

  34. UpstateNY, unless he addressed me personally and said “Maria I am so sorry for being an ass,” a speech would not be enough.

  35. Obama’s morale compass doesn’t match mine.

    If it ever happened that Hillary would ask me to vote for Obama, I would have to respectfully decline. No matter how much I love her, I can’t vote against my conscious.

    It’s Hillary or nothing baby.

  36. “Obama is having a hissy fit over the letter. ”

    Love it!!!! There’s a couple uppity wimminz on that list that signed the letter. I hope he is truly and personally upset by this. Step 1 in the whole vengeance thing.

  37. Early reason for Obama dislike:

    An RS profile I read Spring ’07 which had him disparaging his mother as a ‘Jungle Fever’ white liberal, which then evolved into a specific campaign strategy to attract votes. Yes, there was a quote (from his pollster) about exploiting the jungle fever dynamic.

    Men w/ ‘mom issues’ = red flag.

    Frankly, Obama gives me the creeps. It might be his face in the clouds on his web site. Perhaps it’s the Will.I.Am video, or Oprah and The One.

    At this point, it goes way beyond Candidate Obama and more to the utter farce that the Democrats have presented as a “primary.” I might lose it next time a Democrat opines relentlessly on ‘will of the people’ while blotting out two states and pointing to caucus results for the precious pledged delegates (The Gold Standard) that contradict primary results (TX,WA). Hey, did TX ever tabulate the final result or is it still stuck at 40% reporting? Never mind, I’m sure that after the county conventions, Obama will have a 75-25 advantage!!

    Obama has not managed to sustain any sort of lead over Hillary — even today, it’s 45-45. Yet, I’m supposed to believe that by the Ultimate Metric of Most States and Pledged Delegates, Obama wins repeatedly by whopping margins. Please.

    A Potemkin village primary.

  38. I don’t know if TPM thought folks were going to be outraged by the STFU letter from hefty Dem donors, but I thought it was one of the best slapdown letters I’ve ever seen.

    And good for them.

  39. As a Kansan and after holding my nose to vote for Kerry, only to have him spit on my vote by not pushing to have every vote counted in Ohio — I promised myself NEVER again.

    Never again will I vote for a guy, just because he’s a Democrat.

    I’ll never vote for a Republican — never have, never will.

    But, Obama has already proven that he’s not going to count every vote. Just ask the Democrats of Florida and Michigan.

    If Obama gets the nomination without STANDING for seating FL & MI — NOW when it matters, then I’m not going to vote for him in November. I’ll write in Hillary’s name.

    And why is that so shocking?

  40. I think at this point I really would vote for McCain. I have never voted for a Republican before, but I would want to send Obama and the DNC a message they will never forget. I really see an Obama presidency as a four-year breather for the GOP. I’d rather have someone unloved by the GOP dither around for four years than have Obama with his stunning lack of good judgment and seeming lack of interest in actually governing. Of course, it would be a matter of picking the lesser of the two evils. The only two ways my decision could be changed would be 1) who McCain picks for a running mate and 2) if Obama ever offered a substantive reason to vote for him that could override all his negatives.

  41. I’ve been particularly amused to read Obamaphants trying to use this poll to claim that it shows that Obama supporters are more ‘loyal to the party’.
    A. My loyalty is foremost to my country and what I think is best for it, not to a political party.
    B. If I find that, in my heart, I cannot bring myself to cast a vote for Obama, should he ultimately be the Democratic nominee, it isn’t a case of me abandoning the Democratic Party. In my estimation, it is the party abandoning me.

    That being said, I’m 95% certain I could never bring myself to actually vote for McCain. Like others have said, I’d likely either write in Hillary or skip it and vote in the other races.

    Though, I will say, with McCain, as much as I am counter to the vast majority of his positions, I cannot but believe that his convictions, wrong as they are, are what he honestly believes. And that his desire to be President comes mostly from a desire to serve his country.

    Whereas Obama’s rabid pandering, particularly to the religious element, leaves me highly skeptical of his commitment to social causes important to me. And outside of W and Mama Barbara, I can’t think of a man and woman who so viscerally strike me as egotistical in politics. The statements and insinuations that we should all just be SO grateful, proud and humbled that Barack would deign to descend from his perch of perfection to the pestulant pit of politics. And he’s doing it JUST FOR US!!!!!

  42. Obama is turning out to be quite the whiner.

    Wah, wah, wah.

    He’s got absolutely zero chance of winning in November.

  43. @ Bostonboomer

    Not only was Bush likeable, but he did have years of executive experience managing the great State of Texas which you failed to mention. This is why I’m surprised more Dems didn’t/don’t like the good govenor of NM — here’s a likeable guy with lots of REAL executive experience, but Obama and his fluff got in the way.

  44. One good thing about a McCain winis that more than likely he’ll run as as a patriotic maverick (i.e. centrist Republican) who just can’t help himself in siding with military solutions for whatever ails the country.. Which means he’s going to walk away from all that “strict constructionist” bullshit.

    What’s more the Dems will be in the majority in Congress and perfectly capable off stopping McCain if he should venture off the reservation. .

    Free to govern as a centrist, the fascist neocon & Moonie wings of the GOP will be neutralized and hopefully castrated.

    We can only hope…

  45. Supreme Court are not important to me. (However, I would like to point out to you young, nubile female Obamaphiles who think the world revolves around abortion rights that it was probably not the best strategy

    OK, about this … access to the constitutional right of an abortion is in name only. I know this is the favorite Democratic ‘fear card’ to keep women in line, but perhaps a discussion about how abortion rights are de facto a state issue is long overdue.

  46. Jay–

    Bush was governor of TX, a state in which the office is largely ceremonial. Most of the work was done by Bush’s Lt. Gov. Bush spent a lot of time cackling over killing people in the electric chair though. Face it, he was handed the presidency because of his dad. It was a legacy presididency. One person I dislike worse than Obama is GW Bush.

  47. I just can’t see party loyalty at this point. it’s not just the way women are taken for granted. have the democrats done what they were elected to do in 2006? a lot of us worked hard for that election and it wasn’t to see them capitulate to bush and fund the war.

  48. Jay: Welcome to The Confluence. Sorry you chose this year to take a look at our party, now that it’s been trashed. *sigh*
    yeah, she’s the real thing, Jay. She’s not perfect, for sure. But she’s got a very good head on her shoulders, she knows what she’s up against and in spite of all that’s been said about her, we trust her to do the right thing the vast majority of the time. She’s a decent person.

  49. And, no, Jay, we do not think that Bush was qualified to be president and many of us found him just as unlikeable as we find Obama. But as I said before, likeability can be overcome if the candidate has a solid record of accomplishments. Unfortunately, Bush deficient in this area. So, you have to give us some credit, Jay. Many of us knew in advance that Bush would be a disaster and we were right. We thought the Iraq War would be a disaster and we were right. We’re making the same prediction about Obama.
    Sometimes it is hard to be a Cassandra. But I think you can trust our judgment on this one Jay. Hillary is the real deal.

  50. bostonboomer: Most of the work was done by Bush’s Lt. Gov.

    Exactly. A conservative democrat by the name of Bob Bullock. He was already in office when Bush was elected. Around the time mom and pop began to officially settle back into residence in Texas. The coverage over their return “home” to the Lone Star State didn’t Dubya at all. I’m just sayin’.

  51. “didn’t Dubya at all.”

    didn’t “hurt” GWB’s profile and favorability, at the time.

  52. wow great video at Taylor Marsh of Greta interviewing Hillary……strange to have to go to Fox for a great interview…..

    http://www.taylormarsh.com/

  53. Well, I’ve only been able to vote since 2000, but I thought I couldn’t be more demoralized after having worked for the Gore campaign that year. My parents had my sister and I volunteering for Dukakis when we were still in elementary school so our family are staunch Democrats and yet our whole family is almost distraught that we find ourselves in a position of refusing to vote for Obama. It’s been that ugly.

    Never did I imagine that I would hate a fellow Democrat so intensely–and on actually legitimate grounds–as I do with Obama. Disturbingly, there is equally rabid hatred of Clinton from Obama supporters and overwhelmingly it is based on complete lies, with the false race baiting narrative being the most explosive (Advice: if confronting an Obama supporter on this issue, it’s best to start with the Jesse Jackson, Jr. clip to show how Obama himself pushed inflammatory, untrue race rhetoric against Clinton and that if Obama truly suffered from the injection of race he never would’ve allowed his national co-chair to spew such bizarre nonsense. To think Clinton could possibly gain by such a maneuever–especially with an overtly hostile media–is insane!).

    Even for those who weren’t appalled by the ugly smear campaign or open misogynistic bigotry leveled at Clinton by even top Democrats–including Obama himself–the disenfranchisement by MI and FL by Obama and the DNC, respectively, was the final nail in the coffin. Especially for our family, which consists of FL Democrats who wept in 2000 and now have to contend with Dean & Co. stabbing them in the back and twisting the knife.

    If Obama is the nominee, he’ll lose–badly. Period. So when we state either Clinton is the nominee or we’ll refuse to vote for Obama, it’s not out of revenge, but to give us a chance to win–and save the party. Obama is a godsend to the right! With him as our nominee, our party will epitomize the worst right-wing myths about liberals: we’ll have a nominee exposed as a neophyte fraud who plays the race card to blunt criticism and smear, disenfranchises voters for personal ambition alone, and considers anti-American* pastors and corrupt power brokers to be mentors and close, personal friends.

    *Regardless of what we liberals think of Wright, he’ll be seen as virulently anti-American and racist. As will Obama.

    NOTE: I don’t think we should rely on Rasmussen or Gallop polls, especially the former, which has a spotty record this year. Pew did a study (before Wright) that showed 10% of Obama supporters would pick McCain if Clinton was the nominee while 25% of Clinton supporters would do the same if the reverse were true. Obama was struggling before Wright with working class (white) Democrats and Latinos. How he’ll woo them now is beyond me.

  54. Somebody please kill me now!!! Just do it I beseech ye!!!

    I have to turn to Frank-F@#&ing-Luntz to hear somebody in the media say anything reasonable about the Democratic race?

    I have a headache.

  55. About MI and FL:

    I think the “constitutional” aspects of these primaries gets overplayed, since there is no constitutional right to vote in a primary so that annoys me. But I can certainly agree that Obama has took a position on each primary that makes any Democrat grimace.

    I certainly don’t mind that his campaign was against seating the delegates based on the original votes. I can’t see any good argument for that. Nor do I mind that he rejected the revote plan in Michigan and the mail-in plan in Florida. They both had very real problems. Someone needed to point them out.

    What I was absolutely stunned by was that he wouldn’t offer a plan of his own and start throwing some of that 55M a month at it. I mean, that’s the kind of move that could have swayed voters all over the country. He’s an expert in election law. He should have been able to do that. Even if he got rejected, it would have at least stymied Clinton’s rather childish “What are you afraid of?” rhetoric.

    Instead, he took a academic-minded position that might have sounded righteously restrained in a seminar but looks grossly opportunistic in play.

    Just sad and stupid stuff.

  56. I won’t vote for Obama. I have reached the point where I just am resisting voting for someone I have absolutely no faith in. I was an Edwards supporter and didn’t want HIllary either. But, the landscape has changed. My criteria is now something like “at least a Clinton team would probably be able to re-fix the economy–they did it once before.” If Clinton isn’t the nominee, I cannot vote for Obama, especially since he’s such a liar and inexperienced opportunist, as well as a cynical race-player. I will either not vote the top of the ticket or write Edwards in.
    It’s a way of protesting, at least. The Democratic Party has to be sent some sort of message at the very least.

  57. I have voted a nearly straight Democratic ticket since Jimmy Carter in ’76 but if they insist on not recognizing the rights of those voters in FLA and MI to have their votes counted, to be allowed participation in the process, I will not be able to vote for any Dems this time around. That is a cardinal sin in my book. I was sickened in 2000 with the non-count in FLA. That was something I never thought would happened in America and I blamed it on the Republicans and their “win at all cost, damn the people” approach. To see the Democrats do the same thing this year is a shock for me. Or is it an awakening? I don’t know.

    I fear gross incompetence from BO if elected. We’ve just suffered through 7 years of that. No more please. I think McCain might at least be semi-competent but his policies would be so wrong that I can’t vote for him. Nader’s a joke, so beyond writing in Hillary (which I don’t think is allowed here in NY) I may have to vote for “None of the Above”. Blomberg, anyone?

  58. I won’t vote for Obama because he does not need my vote. I will leave the spot blank.

  59. I too will not vote for Obama. And if the Dems go down with him, so be it. Howard, Nancy et al. brought it on themselves. I don’t give a f*&k anymore. This whole thing is disgraceful.

  60. McCain’s national finance director, Fred Malek, helped kill and barbecue a dog, while drunk, in college. I did plenty of things while drunk in college, but that’s not on my list. And he’s by no means the only Republican with serious animal kinks.

    Vote for the Democrat! They’re not sociopaths!

  61. I have to confess that I will never vote for Obama. i can’t do it not after the way he has treated the Clintons, and not after the way he has treated Hillary’s voters. I have voted Democrat all my life even when I didn’t care for the person. I voted for Kerry, but never thought he was that strong. But Obama I could never vote for. He doesn’t deserve to step on the White House lawn as far as I’m concerned. I agree with you riversdaughter that if he would have stood up even once to the misogyny in the party, and in his campaign I would have considered him. But the race baiting, and sexist comments he himself has made, has made me detest him with a passion. I can’t even look at him anymore.

    Good Bye Obama!

  62. Why has Obama not apologized to the Clintons after hearing his pastor attacked them? b/c the guy is an arrogant ass and classless.

    It is just one of many reasons why many democrats will abandon him if Pelosi and the dem establishment nominate obama.

  63. I’m so glad I found The Confluence, Taylor Marsh, Anglachel’s Journal, NoQuarter, and all of the other pro-Clinton blogs on the web. I could feel the change in early January right after Iowa. My Obamabot friends put me on trial for supporting Clinton and they kept telling me that she was “dead” and they were so happy and gloating. I think if they had actually remained civil Clinton might have lost NH but they and the media acted like arrogant fools, too eager to write Clinton’s obituary. It backfired. And they didn’t learn. They continued with the attacks and about a week after NH I think I decided that I would never vote for Obama even if he won the nomination. I’m glad to see so many people on here who share my view and now we even have polls showing that a good number of Clintonites feel the same way.
    Anglachel has a great post up about how Obama, the blogger boyz, the DNC, and the media have lead to all of us agreeing that we will never vote for Obama and some of us even planning to vote for McCain: http://anglachelg.blogspot.com/2008/03/gathering-storm.html

  64. Dislike. Visceral dislike. It’s hard to put my finger on why, except, first how he and his camp treated Hillary Clinton. There is something very dirty about the way he does things politically.

    And, being from his same gen he is dredging up racism to use to his advantage. That alone is grotesque. He is not for the Democratic Party as a whole. He is for himself, only. For this reason he will NEVER get my vote.

    It’s his “spin” I can’t stand, or his dishonesty. It’s the way he “turns” on people like his own pastor. I’d have more respect for him if he could take a straight stance. But he won’t. He seems to bend and flow with the spin like a Gumby doll.

    He’s not real. And when more of his history comes out, ie: Rezko, people will see how ruthless he actually is.

    He alone is corrupt, and he has made me disgusted with my Party of choice.

    That crack he made about Bill Clinton not being able to dance “like a brotha” or his wife (in Jimmy Choos) not being able to support Hillary?

    Well, they can eff off. Truly.

    The Clintons see past race. Obama doesn’t. Hillary sees the Democratic Party as a whole. Obama has fragmented it, and destroyed any gains we’ve all made.

    He makes me sick to my stomach for being such a fakir.

    And, he’s pro-corporate, pro-nuke. He’s in it for himself. He is not a Kennedy, or a Carter or a Clinton. He disgraces the Democrats and he’ll be surprised at how they will turn on him, because of his actions.

  65. wow great video at Taylor Marsh of Greta interviewing Hillary……strange to have to go to Fox for a great interview…..

    We hate Foxnews, but more and more that is the only thing palatable. Of course, we just turn the tube off when that idiot UNReilly is on, but when it comes to news, they have the best organization, darn it.

  66. Jay: Thank you for your perspective. I have grown to respect conservative opinion more than I have in my entire adult life (I’m in my mid-20s so not that long). I’ve stopped the elite mindset mode I’ve had since college and actually started considering other opinions from conservative friends and acquaintances. Us Clintonites have been forced to watch FOX News and agree with people like Pat Buchanan. There have been a lot of surprises in this election. All of the conservatives I know share your opinion. Some are voting for Clinton while others support McCain BUT if they had to choose between Clinton or Obama it is Clinton hands down. Obama scares Americans on both sides of the political spectrum. Especially for conservatives who are patriotic and are absolutely offended by Michelle Obama’s comments and Rev. Wright. It will be interesting to see the independent and Republican turnout for Obama in the remaining primaries. I think a lot of them had their fun in the beginning but are now scared that they had a hand in electing an unpatriotic liberal elitist who possibly shares the same racist, anti-semitic beliefs as his pastor. It’s funny to see Republicans these days actually defending Clinton and giving her fairer coverage (FOX) and Clintonites promising to vote for McCain if Obama wins the nomination. Maybe our shared hatred for Obama really will bring us together in the end 😛

  67. prohillary: I mentioned this earlier today but I think the number for Hillary supporters is much larger. 28% only counts the people who will vote for McCain. It doesn’t include people like me who will write in Hillary. I think there is a good number of us who have chosen to do this instead of vote for a Republican. Then there are some who won’t even vote at all. I estimated earlier today that if the media and Obamabots don’t get a clue that Obama won’t get a good 30-40% of Clintonites to vote for him if he is the nominee.

    Oh, and I LOVE the photo of that old woman snatching an Obama sign out of another woman’s hand at a Clinton rally. Go Grandma! I would love to see millions of old women start riots in this country and show all of these young men and women who is boss!

  68. I loved that photo, also!!! Don’t mess with granny!!! Not to mention all those kids are are rallying for obama who will be in class in November, and hardly likely to pack the polls. There should be a granny march somewhere, We went to the early anti-war marches in NYC. Totally useless with a programmed moron in the white house, but we really had the number–blocks and blocks of the already POd.

    Sources familiar with the extent of Clinton’s advertising said her buy for the coming week was less than half the size of Obama’s and was focused primarily in the Philadelphia market. Her statewide ad buy appeared to be in the range of $600,000, his about $1.6 million.
    http://www.philly.com/philly/news/politics/elections/20080326_Clinton_ads_up_in_Pa___Obama_plans_bus_tour.html

    This is fhe first economic revival program he has worked on and it will help Penna!!!!!!

  69. What is this with Obama that he thinks he can just demand that Hillary do this or that to always make his life easier? F*)#(k him! I’m sick of his little boy hissy fits, demanding that everything always go his way, that he always have the advantages, that no one ever ask him a tough question, and that everyone let him win! Is Hillary his mother? I would suggest that Hillary call him back and tell him to seat FL and MI or just STFU! What a whiney baby!

  70. It would probably be unwise to say this to my colleagues & I’ll have to work pretty hard to keep my mouth shut about what I’m really thinking, if it comes to that..
    But I am about 95% sure I couldn’t vote for Obama. I don’t trust him to stand up for Democratic principles at all. I hate the Rovian tactics of his campaign. I’m very worried about what would happen with the economy and foreign policy because he really DOES have no experience and that’s not nothing.. a lot of people I know seem to think it just doesn’t matter, I’m not sure why.

  71. I am the kind of Democrat that Democratic candidates rely on. I give money to the party. I sit at the phone talking to people about the candidate. I wear out the tread on my tennis shoe. I stand on the corner holding signs yelling my voice raw for hours on end. Guess what. If Barack Obama is the nominee, there’s no way in hell I’ll do that for him. Instead, I will wander across the river from DC to Virginia 11 and try to turn it blue. I am not wasting my time on yet another loser, and Barack Obama is a deeply flawed candidate.

  72. Just can’t pull the lever for BO. McCain won’t get my vote; I’ll stay home. If BO snags the nom, it will be the absolute WORST candidate the Democratic party has ever put up. “Deeply flawed” doesn’t even begin to describe the neophyte.

  73. Here’s a petition for all to sign about FL and MI.

    http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/seatourdelegates/index.html

  74. For a long time during this primary season, I said I’d get behind the nominee, whoever it was. Then for a while, I said I just didn’t know what I would do in November, but that Barack Obama was going to have to “earn” my vote, he wasn’t going to just get it for free. But, I’ve moved WAY past that point.

    I will never vote for Barack Obama. He hasn’t earned the right to represent this country; he hasn’t earned the right to represent the Democratic Party; he hasn’t earned a damn thing. He’s one of those very clever people who know how to avoid doing the work, but always slides into place to collect the credit for those who do the work. Clinton’s been “doing the work” for the Democratic Party for 30 years–and she’s never wavered from her dedication to the people she serves, even when it means helping David Axelrod and his wife with their autism foundation at the very moment Bill Clinton was undergoing an impeachment trial in the Senate! That speaks volumes to me. I have always hated those loathesome people who think they are too good to do the work but never fail to claim the credit. And, I’ll never vote for one to be the president of this nation. The office has been sullied for the past 8 years by a petulant, petty poser, and to put another one in the White House would compound the crime. I won’t collaborate with idiot voters or a Democratic Party who have lost their collective minds over this candidate.

  75. If you want to see why I am a Hillary supporter, read this:

    http://www.correntewire.com/sneaky_chelsea_dodges_questions_about_her_dads_blow_job#comment-78003

    The comment by Lambert on the “Clenis” is worthy of its own front page thread.

  76. I have taken this primary so personally that in NOV my husband and I will stay home if Obama is the nominee. Let all the AA, young, independent and republican voters who supported him in the primaries go out and vote. According to Obama, he can get support from all sides. If the Dems fail in Nov, look at the bright side. Nancy will be gone, many pundits and bloggers will have egg on their face for their lies and deception and a ruined reputation, and the Dem party will never take women for granted ever again! I am so pissed with Obama and the DNC for condoning and perpetuating sexism and misogyny. I feel so battered and abused that I will never be able to forgive and forget how undemocratic our DEm party has behaved. Shame on them!

  77. Tiffany–

    What have they done for us after we elected enough of them to win majorities in the House and Senate? All they have done is cave to Bush over and over and over again. Why should I trust these people to pick the President? I can already tell that Obama will just be another caver. If the Democrats lose this year, the party will be dead. Another opposition party is going to have to be formed. Right now the Democrats are so much like the Republicans that I just can’t see much point in listening to them.

  78. myiq2xu–

    I followed your link over to Corrente, and when I saw I had already read that entry, I started looking around. Unfortunately, I clicked on a link that too me to that dreadful orange place. Apparently Deleware Dem has decided that we (Hillary supporters) are the “cultists” because we don’t want to vote for whiney Barack. I couldn’t believe my eyes when I noticed that I still have TU status over there. I haven’t posted a comment to that site for weeks and they still trust me. Ha!

  79. By helping to slag Clinton in the usual way, the Republicans have found another way to boost Obama, trying desperately to make him the democratic nominee.

    But they FEAR an Obama presidency, for the same reasons we do, ie the corruption, and the incompetency.

    But beware, republicans, you might just get Obama as President if you continue to push his nomination, you never can tell…

  80. Well, as a bluedog democrat who has voted the straight party ticket every election since my first (1972), who’s volunteered for Gene McCarthy, McGovern, Mondale, Carter, Gore, Clinton, Gore, and Kerry, if the party (not MY party) nominates Barack Obama, I’ll vote for John McCain, because I put my country above what USED to be my party.

    I don’t believe there is any chance Obama will win the GE, but I think he has a very good chance to be the democratic nominee.

    Obama is a…..? I don’t know. A cypher? I do know he’s a fraud, and I do know he associates with, and takes counsel from, some very unsavory people. I also know he supports the same kind of voter disenfranchisement that the Republicans usually, and that he has been able to drive a wedge between black, white, and brown Democrats… something the Republicans have been working on since since Carter beat Ford.

    Heckuva job, Obarry.

    McCain is a moderate Republican who will advance some things I like, and many things I won’t. But I will vote for McCain, because that will be my vote against Pelosi, Dean, Kerry, Kennedy, and anyone else who has worked to deny loyal Democrats a say in the nomination process, for changing the Democratic party to the Hypocratic party.

  81. My evolution away from BO started a year ago.

    I watched him at that time on Keith, thinking, “I’d better watch this guy since I’ll be voting for him”. I went away, highly unimpressed thinking, not a very dynamic guy. He’s not going to make it very far. Maybe someday he’ll be pres, not now.

    Fast forward to a year later to Daily KOS where the vitriolic hatred for Hillary was right there front and center while Obama was treated like — Oprah. I got troll rated on several occasions for saying things like “guys, he’s not a saint, he’s a politician”. (have to wonder just how organized this mob rule was).

    and some of these aren’t in chronological order but here are my further detractors….

    …The claims of racism (LOL, what a laugher) that the media and the DNC seemed to encourage The words, “she’s likeable enough,” “periodically when she’s feeling low”.

    …Destroying the last successful Democratic presidency for the sake of winning a nomination. If race is untouchable, so should Bill’s picadillo’s be. Hillary didn’t commit them.

    …The claims of the “Bradley Effect” in NH and of CHEATING in NV. Is it impossible to believe she won on her own merits?

    …The spooky godlike aura on the web site, the “fainting” fans at rallies, the wierd religious rallies.

    …The really, really awful coverage in the media, especially propaganda networks like MSNBC. HEY, THE IRAQ WAR WAS A MEDIA DARLING TOO, so I can’t help but run away from their media darlings

    …The statements like “Republicans were the party of ideas”. There’s been no discussion from Barack’s camp about how he’s going to be different from Republicans. Therefore, for me, he’s a Republican too.

    …Suggesting Republicans for his defense cabinet…as if he’s already decided that Democrats can’t do the job. It’s insulting.

    ..And the victimization strategy that has permeated his campaigns. You can’t win the presidency as a victim, and if you happen to (by some lucky coincidence or a media magic carpet ride), I certainly don’t want your victim’s attitude to define the Democratic party in the presidency. It may win us the battle, but it will lose us the war for eons.

    “Dems for a day”.

    Reverend Wright and Rezko. Maybe there’s no there there, except to the 527’s.

    …And Obama is Bush all over again — the weak candidate driven by the puppet strings of people like Kerry and Kennedy. For them, I think he’s their only hope of “winning” — vicariously.

    So call me petulant ;-). Tell me I’m taking my ball and going home. ;-). But I won’t vote for the puppet candidate. My plan is to vote for Hillary in November, regardless of who is onl the ballot.

  82. The Obama children — lo! — these last 13 months actually believed they could put Barack Obama in the White House without us. As people who have lived through McGovern, Mondale, Dukakis, and Kerry, we hasten to assure them that without our time, money, and votes, their cherished messiah has not a chance to become president of the United States.

  83. Does anyone here know for a fact that O is pro-choice?
    There is nothing on his website about women’s issues or
    choice that I can find. It’s like women don’t exist over there. He (Big surprise). He was going to vote yes on Roberts
    until an advisor pointed out that it would be bad for his
    career. He said he didn’t want others to vote on his nominees
    for ideological reasons. The only time I heard him say he
    was, he sounded like he was hedging. When someone uses
    the SCOTUS on me, I tell them I will use my time and money
    to elect downticket Dems so we can control Congress to
    nullify McCain ( hope it doesn’t come to that).

  84. riverdaughter: “As someone in the comments said, Obama is going to have do a lot of ass kissing to get my vote.”

    That would be…me. Do I get a prize? And you’re right—I don’t believe Sen. Obama has the time to give me the ass-kissing I need to vote for him.

    Frankly, there are bigger things than the party—one being the people.

    Did anyone catch Sen. Obama’s economics speech? Okay, first WTF with all the flags? Who does his set dressing? Fire that person. I get the point—it’s all about him looking presidential.

    See, he doesn’t have cool footage of walking along a war zone thanking troops for their service. Craig Crawford is right: each time that Bosnia footage of then-First lady Clinton and Chelsea Clinton rolls, it helps Sen. Clinton. Why? Because she looks like the goddamn commander-in-chief.

    Oooo, I got a snappy tag: Clinton 08: She don’t need no stinkin’ props.

    Second, Sen. Obama always comes across as if he doesn’t understand what economic issues really mean. Maybe he talks specifics, but I don’t know, it’s like it just floats away from him.

    He must talk about this, but I don’t believe him. I’ve never believed him. My gut says he’s probably a likeable enough guy (ha, gotcha), pretty bright and a very good politician. But I don’t trust him with stuff that really counts.

    Anyway, Sen. Clinton seemed really good during her speech on the economy, especially linking foriegn policy (dependence on oil), environment, jobs, American innovation (we can find greener ways to live our lives), and LEEDS certification at Wake University.

    Fucking A, right on, it was a thing of beauty—she should do more of that.

    She could do it with why a gallon milk costs so much. Why the cost of bread is rising. the issue about milk goes to agricultural policy (esp. subsidies and the scarmble to find products in which to put all that high-fructose corn syrup and now we’re dealing with the health effects), introduction of antibiotics and BGH in our food supply and it’s negative effects on health, environment, poor use of swathes of land being used for farming and not for wind generation or crop-based organic planting on an industrial scale, including pesticides and too much food going to feed animals that become are food and the health effects of that food.

    Okay, I need to do a whole flowchart to get this across. But she could totally play connect the dots clearly and concisely—and talk to us as grown-ups. She is a reliable source of information. Oooo, that’s another tag:

    Clinton 08: She don’t need no stinkin’ teleprompter.

    In fact, she should make a point of saying, “Okay, forget what’s on the teleprompter,” and just go. She’s so good when she’s just talking. Of course, she can get in big trouble, too, but she really knows her shit.

    It’s a nice way to spin the Obama campaign swiftboating re: trustworthiness. When it comes to shit that matters, I trust _her._ I don’t care about the other stuff.

    Anyway, would the milk stuff matter in North Carolina? Maybe not. Unless she really nails on why milk and bread cost what they cost and that effects everybody. Unless you’re a True Believer, in which case, you get loaves and fishes.

    But agriculture matters in Indiana.

    And we’re suddenly talking Big Picture stuff on how all of these things are connected and effects each one of us in a deeply personal way—wallet, health, war, torture.

    And also, I’m not sold on this unity thing being a good thing. My fab GF things unity is stupid—do you really wanted to be united with some people?

    I mean, unity in government has gotten us a one-way ticket to Iraq. Unity in the media has gotten us, well, Sen. Obama’s unexamined-until-too-late candidacy.

    I am officially on favor of bickering and dissent.

    One more thing—

    Does anybody get the weird feeling that Sen. Obama and his campaign have an unenviable problem: They know they can’t win the general election, but Sen. Obama can’t walk away gracefully without destroying his political career?

    He doesn’t act like a winner. He can’t close the deal. he can only get the nomination if she quits: He has put his fate in her hands. Winners and leaders don’t do that.

    Of course, I could be so wrong I am wearing my own ass for a hat. I have been guilty of the asshattery before and will be again, I’m sure.

  85. Joan: Does it matter? Obama has demonstrated throughout this campaign that the voices of women are worth half the value of men. I guess it all depends on what kind of Congress we get. Yeah, that’s the ticket! Let’s focus on Congressional races.
    I’d be a trifled worried if I were female Obamaphiles. Obama is getting a lot of support from the Bush Dog states. You know, the Ben Nelson’s and the Tim Johnsons and Kansaa. They aren’t particularly noted for their choice credentials. In fact, wasn’t it South Dakota that tried to pass that super strict bill that would give no exceptions to anyone, and the only scenario that was proposed to gain sympathy would be for a virgin who was brutally raped? Like if you’re just someone’s wife and you’re brutally raped by a stranger, somehow your “expericene” makes you less of a sympathetic character.
    No, I don’t like the Bush Dogs much. But, Hey! If Obamagirl is cool with ti, more power to her. It’s not my problem. I have the money to decide my own fate, unlike some poor twenty year old co-ed during midterms.

  86. My exact thoughts–extreme “visceral dislike” of a Democratic candidate, something that I’ve never felt before. I even find $hrub more appealing, and he is far worse than any other Republican in my lifetime. I cannot vote for Obama under any circumstances. I am writing in Hillary’s name if she is not on the ballot. McCain would be preferable to Obama, although I won’t vote for him.

    I may be sitting out this General Election–no donations, no volunteer activity. I resent wasting time and money on Kerry’s campaign. He was a weak candidate. Coming out in support of Obama really was the final straw, although he is a Kennedy copy, and Teddy wouldn’t want two Clintons to trump one Kennedy (and the Clintons did it on their own merit, not inherited wealth.)

    I wrote to my Rep. Anna Escho who is a Pelosi accomplice about how she was special to us when starting her political career because she was a woman candidate. (My friends passed around her video introduction–something new in campaigns and talked up her candidacy). After Escho endorsed BO based on Axelrod ad campaign rhetoric, I pointed out I hoped she and others in favor of such “change” would turn over their seats to new blood.

    “In all my years of voting… I can’t ever recall having such a visceral dislike of a candidate.” Exactly my own thought.

    Also, ditto: “The more I find out about him, the less I like him. To be honest, hearing his voice makes my flesh crawl. That is how bad it has gotten.” Au contraire, the more I learn about Hillary the more I like her.

    BTW, checked two of the so-called liberal Dem (anti-Hill) blogs for the first-time in weeks. I believe they are suffering from the exodus of Hillary supporters, operating in echo chamber. I stopped posting because I didn’t want to engage with such fools. Now they don’t have a lot to comment on since everyone is drinking the same Kool-Aid.

  87. Great job reducing politics to the same level of that people invest in sports teams and melodramatic villains at the ‘talkies.’ Remember when this was a policy debate? I almost don’t. Despite the fact that both candidates had nigh identical platforms, hundreds of thousands of voters in a range of states as diverse as the country itself decided they preferred Obama’s vision of the Democratic party to Clinton’s. With so many people stratified and sold on policy, anyone hoping to come from behind had to go after the high hanging fruit, the kind that are sold on scandal, not policy. It’s inherently nasty and its going to look even more so to people who bought the farm on policy. Just as you see a vast left-wing conspiracy when people like Senator Pat Leahy calls for Hillary to drop out, we see it when Bill Clinton praises Hillary and McCain in the same breath. I’m not claiming equivocation, but pointing out that no matter who you support, there is ample room for umbrage.

    That said, I was in Philadelphia last weekend, and heartened by a conversation I had with a Clinton staffer. She knew that the writing was on the wall, but was working hard anyway on the same street corner that I was. We hung out and solicited voters together knowing that in the end the voter’s were were registering were ours, both of ours. We’re on the same side, and those with perspective, on both sides haven’t lost sight of that. Obama sold me on policy, and I’ll work for him until I can’t work for him anymore. If that’s this year, I’ll work for Clinton and I’ll do a damn fine job of it. The girl who works for Clinton, I know she’ll do the same.

    I have been shocked to see people on both sides, people who used to eloquently debate policy minutiae slowly slide into a delusional world where their primary opponent is somehow worse than the alternative. This double talk of “I never said don’t vote for Obama, but I WON’T BE DOING IT” is the worst kind of arrogance. The democratic candidate isn’t supposed to kiss your ass, their supposed to champion the policies and ideals you believe in.

    You’re angry your candidate isn’t doing better. That’s understandable. Understand though that the nose you’re cutting off to spite the face translates to things like health care for those who need it, an about face in American foreign policy, and the tiny matter of John Paul Stevens being old enough to remember the face of God. There is more at stake here than one woman or one man.

  88. Doesn;t anybody want to see Hillary win in 2012 if she is not nominated in 2008?

    The problem with the “i’ll vote for McCain” or “i’ll write in Hillary” strategy is two fold. one McCain will win if that happens and that’s bad enough. Two the backlash against a Clinton 2012 candidacy will be huge.

    Assuming Hillary is not nominated she will indeed back obama. But if she then can;t deliver her supporters to Obama and the democrats she will lose all her power fro national candidacy. You may think otherwise but I submoit it is cloded passionate thinking to think otherwise. You think superdelegates are not coming now watch what happens in 2012 if she can;t deliver for the DNC in 2008.

    Why would whatever is left of the democratic party turn to a candidate that could not deliver her own supporters to the party? After all they are supposed to be loyal dems right. If she can;t do it it’s over for her.

    Even if obama was not a candidate again in 2012 there is no freaking way that she will earn enough of the AA base to win. IT will be the same story only with someone new.

    No my friends, (since you all are welcoming getting used to the phrase), it’s win the nomination or support Obama if he wins it. Otherwise it’s the end of Hillary.

    She will make a fine majority leader of the Senate if the scenario you all seem to support plays out. She will never be nominated as the DEM POTUS candidate.

    sadbuttrue

    the only way to make sure Hillary gets a shot in 2012 is to SUPPORT obama with your vote. That way when the GOP beats him anyway she can get the nomination next time.

    You heard it here first.

    DEM ’08

  89. Josh: “This double talk of “I never said don’t vote for Obama, but I WON’T BE DOING IT” is the worst kind of arrogance.”

    Um, no. That’s not the worst kind of arrogance. That’s not even arrogance. Telling me the reason I don’t support Sen. Obama because I’m stupid and racist, but expecting me to vote for him anyway—that’s arrogance.

    Dick Cheney’s “So?”—that’s arrogance. And a lot worse to the worst kind of arrogance.

    Choosing not to vote for someone because you think he doesn’t represent your interests—that’s far from arrogant. That’s intelligent. If I don’t think Sen. Obama represents my interests, then why should I vote for him? Because you scold me?

    If Sen. Obama wins the nomination (and he hasn’t), he will have to kiss my ass to earn my vote. Until then, I stand with my candidate until I decide otherwise. Not you. Not Sen. Obama. Not the bitchquitters.

    I withhold my support when a candidate claiming to share my interests shows me he absolutely does not. An example: Jesse Jackson, Jr., speaking on behalf of Sen. Obama, compares beating Sen. Clinton to how O.J. murdered his ex-wife.

    I’m sorry, you said you find sports analogies distasteful?

    BTW, her name was Nicole Brown Simpson. The guy who was also hacked to death? His name was Ron Goldman.

    Good thing your candidate was right out there condemning such garbage. Oh, wait, no, he wasn’t. I guess it could’ve been just a gaffe—oh, wait, we have a reprise of O.J. in Sen. Obama’s speech on how we need to to start talking about race. That’s handy. And uplifting.

    This is the same speech in which he equated the trashtalk of Rev. Wright with his grandmother (you know he exaggerated her bigotry, right?). But I really respected that moment of candor when in that same speech Sen. Obama admitted to his own bigotry and—oh, wait.

    No, he didn’t. Guess Grandma will have to just carry the load for him. Again.

    These are two of many many examples. And I’m not talking about minutia like “her claws are coming out,” and so on because I don’t care about that. I’m talking about some misogynistic crap not just from his enthusiastic supporters, but from his surrogates.

    I don’t throw words like “misogyny” around lightly. I don’t throw “racist” and “McCarthy” around lightly, either.

    Anyway, you say the policies of each candidate are almost identical. Okay, a quick look at his actions, surrogates, associations, and electability.

    First, Sen. Obama points to his Illinois State Senate record in a list of achievements. But much of what the senator says in this regard is…bullshit. Please see http://wweek.com/editorial/3418/10516/ for details on exactly how those bills got passed.

    And you can google Exelon to find out how a bill requiring nuclear power plant operators to warn citizens of nuclear waste leaks turned voluntary and never made it out of committee.

    Your candidate has consistently mis-represented his anti-war stance. When he had opportunities to speak up about ending the war, despite the political price, he chose not to. That’s not New Politics. That’s old politics. Real old politics.

    Sen. Obama is not an affirmative action candidate. Such a statement is demeaning to his real achievements—which I give him credit for—and to his candidacy. If he gets my vote, he will have to earn it. I’m not basing it on that he’s black or white.

    Yet his surrogate and mentor (oh, yeah, he has some money ties to Rezko as well), Sen. Kerry, tells me I should support Obama because he’s black.

    Look out for low-flying paradoxes.

    You admit yourself that the policy positions of the two candidates are nearly identical, but you chose to support Sen. Obama because of his policies. Okay, I’m sure you can see the paradox there, but whatever.

    I chose Sen. Clinton because she will get her policies, like universal healthcare, into action. Paul Krugman has some things to say about her universal healthcare policy. Now, I think the chances are slim that anything will happen with healthcare. But if anyone can do it, she can.

    And frankly, I think she’s electable and he’s totally not. Auchi-to-Rezko-to-Obama and Meeks-to-Wright-to Obama. He voted present because he couldn’t figure out what buttons to push. We haven’t even started down the Larry Sinclair path—allegations I think are total bullshit, but this is going to be 527 fodder throughout the fall.

    (Oh, and expect to hear that we finally captured Osama Bin Lauden on October 31. You heard it here first.)

    Sen. Clinton’s issues are well known—yawn. And a bunch of them aren’t her issues at all. But most people are going to find Sen. Obama’s issues really really interesting—he will be defined by those 527 ads.

    Yep, millions have people have voted. And millions have yet to vote. Just because you believe Sen. Clinton will not win the nomination doesn’t make it so.

    So why don’t we let people go and vote and then see what happens, hm?

  90. Let’s tell Starbucks voters for Obama to stop drinking the Barackolatte’s:-)

  91. Let’s tell Starbucks voters for Obama to stop drinking the Barackolatte’s:-)>>>

    Just for kicks…

    Actually there seems to be little correlation to Starbucks per population and Obama support.

    In the 10 states with the lowest starbucks per capita that have had a vote, Obama won 6 and Clinton won 4.

    In the 10 states with the highest Starbucks per capita that have had a vote, Obama has won 7 and Clinton has won 3.

    In the 10 states in the middle of the metric Obama has won 6, Clinton has won 4.

    The real problem is of the 30 we are talking Obama 20 , Clinton 10.

    Starbuck per capita
    #1 District of Columbia:
    Obama
    #2 Washington:
    Obama
    #3 Nevada:
    Clinton
    #4 Colorado:
    Obama
    #5 Oregon:
    Obama
    #6 California:
    Clinton
    #7 Hawaii:
    Obama
    #8 Arizona:
    Clinton
    #9 Alaska:
    Obama
    #10 Illinois:
    Obama
    #11 Virginia:
    Obama
    #12 Maryland:
    Obama
    #13 Idaho:
    Obama
    #14 Texas:
    Clinton
    #15 Massachusetts:
    Clinton
    #16 Minnesota:
    Obama
    #17 Indiana:
    TBD
    #18 Connecticut:
    Obama
    #19 Florida:
    VOID
    #20 New York:
    Clinton
    #21 New Mexico:
    Clinton
    #22 Delaware:
    Obama
    #23 North Dakota:
    Obama
    #24 Georgia:
    Obama
    #25 Utah:
    Obama
    #26 Wyoming:
    Obama
    #27 Ohio:
    Clinton
    #28 South Dakota:
    TBD
    #29 New Jersey:
    Clinton
    #30 Kansas:
    Obama
    #31 Michigan:
    VOID
    #32 Missouri:
    Obama
    #33 North Carolina:
    TBD
    #34 Wisconsin:
    Obama
    #35 Pennsylvania:
    TBD
    #36 Tennessee:
    Clinton
    #37 Nebraska:
    Obama
    #38 Montana:
    TBD
    #39 Iowa:
    Obama
    #40 Rhode Island:
    Clinton
    #41 Maine:
    Obama
    #42 South Carolina:
    Obama
    #43 Kentucky:
    TBD
    #44 Oklahoma:
    Clinton
    #45 Louisiana:
    Obama
    #46 Alabama:
    Obama
    #47 New Hampshire:
    Clinton
    #48 West Virginia:
    TBD
    #49 Mississippi:
    Obama
    #50 Vermont:
    Obama
    #51 Arkansas:
    Clinton

    Now for some real correlations

    In states that have the highest percentage of people that speak spanish at home Hillary sweeps.

    #1 New Mexico: 29.2 %
    #2 Texas: 27.7 %
    #3 California: 27.6 %
    #4 Arizona: 19.8 %
    #5 Nevada: 18.7 %
    #6 Florida: 17.9 %
    #7 New York: 13.5 %
    #8 New Jersey:

    These overlap her “big states” meme.

    In states that have the higest per capita of blacks Obama sweeps

    #1 District of Columbia: 57.177 per 100 people
    #2 Mississippi: 35.596 per 100 people
    #3 Louisiana: 31.613 per 100 people
    #4 South Carolina: 28.294 per 100 people
    #5 Georgia: 27.212 per 100 people
    #6 Maryland: 26.685 per 100 people
    #7 Alabama: 25.416 per 100 people
    #8 North Carolina: 20.441 per 100 people
    #9 Delaware: 18.628 per 100 people
    #10 Virginia: 18.287 per 100 people

    quite simply blacks and hispanics determined who won almost half the states. It’s by FAR the strongest correlation out there.

    In states where Black/HIspanic popoulation does not almost dominate the result, it’s mixed. However, Obama dominated them because of a heavy dose of caucuses. Obama won primaries in this category in 5 of these states. Wisconsin, Missouri, Vermont , Utah and Connecticut.

    He won nearly every caucus in the category though.

    iowa, Alaska, Colorado, Kansas, Minnesota, North Dakota, Washington, Maine, Wyoming and Hawaii

    Clinton won more primaries in the category

    New Hampshire, Arkansas, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, Ohio and Tennessee , soon PA

    Ohio and PA are significant I agree which supports her cause.

    Unfortunately race (be it hispanic or black) is the real story of the primary season. The Clinton campaign failed to see this inevitable split and ceded too many caucuses she needed to split. If that was the strategy she simply HAD to win Wisconsin and Missouri primaries Now that MUST WIN status is likely on Indiana and North Carolina in addition to PA.

    Obama is weak with Hispanics and Catholics. To his credit his last two endorsements seek support in those camps. Richardson (aka Judas) and Casey in PA.

    the bottom line is Clinton won where the Hispanics pulled her through and Obama won where the Blacks pulled him through. The problem was Hillary did not realize the imprtance of the caucuses becasue of this racial split. Obama did early on and has dominated them. Whether they are the Starbucks crowd over accounting the electorate becasue of caucus or not, they gave him a lot of delegates often in lopsided wins.

    A bigger problem for Hillary is the map of the next states will play out the same. She should win PA, Kentucky and West Virginia but probably lose Oregon, South Dakota and North Carolina. Indiana she can win.

    Lucky for Hillary there are no more caucuses (except Guam).

    If she can win PA, IN and NC her case will be strong for the superdelegates. Otherwise her case for big states is too closely tied to the Hispanic vote to matter as a meme.

    This election has simply been

    High Blacks per capita = Obama
    High Hispanics per capita = Clinton
    Caucuses = Obama

    IF she can turn (non black/hispanic) primaries = Clinton into reality she would have already won Wisconsin, Missouri Vermont and Connecticut. These are not exactly red states that “don’t matter” Two are swing states where Obama won the PRIMARY.

    MAybe she can now turn
    (non black/hispanic) primaries = Clinton to reality
    with Wright out there who knows.

    I don;t know about all the sexist stuff cause I think it’s as overblown as the racial stuff magnified thorugh our own prisms if you will.

    I mean I have heard claws coming out and Ghetto-ize Obama from the same media idiots. Not black enough, to likable (aka bithcy) undertones as well. The horserace is tabloid entertainment and both race and gender are on the marquee. In reality Blacks have simply waited for a legit viable chance to do what has happened this year. They would have voted for Hillary but once he won Iowa they said “let’s get behind him” and vote for Hillary if he doen;t make make.

    THe problem is he has largely “made it” and pulling the rug out now (if he gets the mot pledged delegates) will cuase disaster for the party. In particular the CLintons are going from the most liked DEMS by Blacks to the most reviled in one campaign. It’s not becasue of racial remarks it’s because they view overturning what they have done as disenfranchisement.

    I can see their point. NOt that women don;t have large numbers and a bigger defection threat. But after all defecting if you got the most votes and got shafted is different than if you did not. ANyway Hillary needs to get VOTES not superdelegates.

    ANyway, I doubt gender bias is turning the tide the way we think. It’s the migration of Blacks all to Obama that has done it. None of them were for Edwards really. They were for HIllary more than Obama initially.

    I can tell you stats wise it’s much more race than gender regadless of the media meme on gender politics. The stats don’t lie.

    Top 8 hispanics states = Clinton
    Top 8 black states = Obama

    No caucus strategy = Clinton Trails Obama.

    It’s really that simple and it just doesn’t look like the superdeleagtres will turn it for her. They MIGHT if she can make a better plea based on votes to be cast. (not FL and MI but whats up on tap is all that is required).

    She really has to win PA, IN and NC to make it possible in my opinion. Why can;t she??? They are primaries, Wright is out there . Experience over Words. WHy can;t she?

    So the race is still a race no matter what they say in the media. But frankly HIllary has to WIN some primaries not just rely on her so called big state meme. All the MI and FL situation has done is make her look bad beacuse Obama was not the casue of it.
    (whether you want to make him the cause of it now or not)

    THe big stae meme is also flawed. In reality those big states are mostly high hispanic population results. (as would be FL) It’s pretty clear with an objective eye.
    If Hispanics supported DEMS like Blacks in the general the supers would go for it, They don;t so they won;t. FOr that matter DEMS would have been winning FL all along if it were so.

    Gender has helped CLinton. She routinely gets a margin in women Obama is forced to overcome. Trouble is that margin is not translating to young people or black people (or the uber liberal or the INDY) so it gets washed out fast a lot. And the same margin gets erased by failing with men (sexism??)

    Are not both trends (men more Obama, Women more Clinton) simply identity politics? Or do you really think all the Blacks are racist? Are women sexist? This is getting us nowhere..especially if its a 1600 PA ave address we seek.

    THe other problem Clinton has in that the victories the congressional DEMS have gotten recently are not so strongly tied to liberal DEMS. Obama is playing on that though he is certainly just as liberal. What Obama is is simply a good politician with policy views nearly the same as CLinton. He just comes across as listening to the right more. He has certainly not voted that way. EVER.

    He is
    bettter liked (after years of Rovain bashing)
    better trusted (after Clintonian becoming a word people actually understand and beleive)
    and seen as a more unifiying person (they HOPE)
    and NEWer than Hillary. (BUsh/Clinton/BUsh/???)

    Obama may be a charade but it’s going to get him nominated in my opinion. an probably elected unless women vote with spite for McCain.

    Is McCain better for women’s issues. Give me a break! You can;t always get your way but let’s not do something stupid as a result.

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