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	<title>Comments for The Confluence</title>
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	<link>http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com</link>
	<description>A weblog for Kossacks in Exile</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 10:27:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>Comment on Afternoon Open Thread by kangeroo</title>
		<link>http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/2008/05/11/afternoon-open-thread/#comment-17361</link>
		<dc:creator>kangeroo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 09:06:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/?p=813#comment-17361</guid>
		<description>there's no way in hell i'm voting for obama now.  i'm convinced that obama's a 3rd party candidate in the midst of a hostile takeover of the democratic party--and i'm finding commenters out there who are on the same wavelength.

from derridog at noquarter, re: the media:

&lt;blockquote&gt;The question that bothers me is why they want her out so badly. This likely means that the corporations don’t want the Clintons because they know how the government runs and historically have put the brakes on corporate greed. But the other question is: do they want Obama because McCain can knock him out easily or do they want Obama because he’s their guy -they put him up to this because he’s in their pockets and they want to take over the Democratic Party and knock all the progressives out of it and leave us with only easily ignored third parties.

I think the latter.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

from chancellor at talkleft:

&lt;blockquote&gt;[A]s I see it, this year, the will of the voters is going to mean less than the power struggle going on within the Beltway Dems--aided and abetted by some in the blogosphere. The Mountain States are seen by these "new coalition" Dems as representing the best opportunity to counter the Southern Strategy of the Repubs.

As best I can tell, there are many in the Dem party who would like to write off the South entirely as an electoral strategy. This would mean being able to throw out the influence of the Carters, the Gores and the Clintons. Of course, they can't do this without replacement states to make up the votes. What they're hoping is that they can cobble together enough Libertarians in the Mountain States and the border states, such as Virginia and Missouri, to re-draw the electoral map. Obama is the candidate that they chose to draw these voters into the Dem fold.

The problem is that the big electoral votes are still in states where the voter demographics favor Clinton. IMO, the neo-Libertarians will do anything to stop Clinton in order to execute the first part of their strategy--including taking a loss in the GE, as long as they think they can pick up the congressional races. They're trying to prove a point here, IMO, whether or not it means winning back the White House. There's also a problem in that Libertarians are not Democrats, so we are seeing a fight not just for votes but for values. . . .

My guess is that they believe it's now or never, and that due to the state of the economy, the Iraq war/occupation and Bush's approval ratings, this is the time for the coup.

BTW, I do believe it is an attempt at an internal coup. IMO, the comments by Brazile were a slip-up in her anger--we weren't supposed to know that we were being told to go to the back of the bus and stay there, at least not until November. However, now that the plan is out there, you have people like Chris Bowers and Matt Stoller extolling the virtues of the new, neo-Libertarian party, formerly known as the Democrats. Maybe they think we'll change our minds once they tell us how wonderful everything is going to be under the new order. It's Animal Farm redux, best I can tell.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

if obama gets the nomination, i'm now certain that i'll be voting for mccain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>there&#8217;s no way in hell i&#8217;m voting for obama now.  i&#8217;m convinced that obama&#8217;s a 3rd party candidate in the midst of a hostile takeover of the democratic party&#8211;and i&#8217;m finding commenters out there who are on the same wavelength.</p>
<p>from derridog at noquarter, re: the media:</p>
<blockquote><p>The question that bothers me is why they want her out so badly. This likely means that the corporations don’t want the Clintons because they know how the government runs and historically have put the brakes on corporate greed. But the other question is: do they want Obama because McCain can knock him out easily or do they want Obama because he’s their guy -they put him up to this because he’s in their pockets and they want to take over the Democratic Party and knock all the progressives out of it and leave us with only easily ignored third parties.</p>
<p>I think the latter.</p></blockquote>
<p>from chancellor at talkleft:</p>
<blockquote><p>[A]s I see it, this year, the will of the voters is going to mean less than the power struggle going on within the Beltway Dems&#8211;aided and abetted by some in the blogosphere. The Mountain States are seen by these &#8220;new coalition&#8221; Dems as representing the best opportunity to counter the Southern Strategy of the Repubs.</p>
<p>As best I can tell, there are many in the Dem party who would like to write off the South entirely as an electoral strategy. This would mean being able to throw out the influence of the Carters, the Gores and the Clintons. Of course, they can&#8217;t do this without replacement states to make up the votes. What they&#8217;re hoping is that they can cobble together enough Libertarians in the Mountain States and the border states, such as Virginia and Missouri, to re-draw the electoral map. Obama is the candidate that they chose to draw these voters into the Dem fold.</p>
<p>The problem is that the big electoral votes are still in states where the voter demographics favor Clinton. IMO, the neo-Libertarians will do anything to stop Clinton in order to execute the first part of their strategy&#8211;including taking a loss in the GE, as long as they think they can pick up the congressional races. They&#8217;re trying to prove a point here, IMO, whether or not it means winning back the White House. There&#8217;s also a problem in that Libertarians are not Democrats, so we are seeing a fight not just for votes but for values. . . .</p>
<p>My guess is that they believe it&#8217;s now or never, and that due to the state of the economy, the Iraq war/occupation and Bush&#8217;s approval ratings, this is the time for the coup.</p>
<p>BTW, I do believe it is an attempt at an internal coup. IMO, the comments by Brazile were a slip-up in her anger&#8211;we weren&#8217;t supposed to know that we were being told to go to the back of the bus and stay there, at least not until November. However, now that the plan is out there, you have people like Chris Bowers and Matt Stoller extolling the virtues of the new, neo-Libertarian party, formerly known as the Democrats. Maybe they think we&#8217;ll change our minds once they tell us how wonderful everything is going to be under the new order. It&#8217;s Animal Farm redux, best I can tell.</p></blockquote>
<p>if obama gets the nomination, i&#8217;m now certain that i&#8217;ll be voting for mccain.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Afternoon Open Thread by daria--g</title>
		<link>http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/2008/05/11/afternoon-open-thread/#comment-17359</link>
		<dc:creator>daria--g</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 06:36:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/?p=813#comment-17359</guid>
		<description>From Politico, on that story (Novak) about Michelle nixing the possibility of Hillary as VP -

&lt;I&gt;He dismissed it with a flit of his hand. He nearly didn't say anything, but then offered: "My wife does not talk to Bob Novak on a regular basis."  Communications director Robert Gibbs suggested afterward that the article should be set aside "in case of a toilet paper emergency."&lt;/i&gt;

D'oh.  Isn't Gibbs kind of asking for Novak to really go after them..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From Politico, on that story (Novak) about Michelle nixing the possibility of Hillary as VP -</p>
<p><i>He dismissed it with a flit of his hand. He nearly didn&#8217;t say anything, but then offered: &#8220;My wife does not talk to Bob Novak on a regular basis.&#8221;  Communications director Robert Gibbs suggested afterward that the article should be set aside &#8220;in case of a toilet paper emergency.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>D&#8217;oh.  Isn&#8217;t Gibbs kind of asking for Novak to really go after them..</p>
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		<title>Comment on Afternoon Open Thread by CB</title>
		<link>http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/2008/05/11/afternoon-open-thread/#comment-17357</link>
		<dc:creator>CB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 05:06:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/?p=813#comment-17357</guid>
		<description>(posted on Taylor Marsh). I wish I had written it. 

But first, I really must thank the brilliant, indomitable,  Hillary Clinton for standing so tall in face of the hatred directed towards women in this society. Her example WILL make a difference. There are men and women who would never have considered a woman to be presidential material who are now in awe of her!  She has grown in our estimation. The more we see of her the more we admire her.(There has been a downward spiral with the hope/change (TM) ad campaign's product.)

There are woman who cannot overcome their own internalized dismissal of their second sex. Some who have not even tried.

I think of two who have been gratuitous in their belittling of Hilary who have a larger voice than they deserve: Anna Huffington whose Huff Post had such potential, but sold out as a fluff piece even before it had Hillary in its cross-hairs, and Andrea Mitchell, who has been lying about Hillary since Bill's first campaign, snipping a bit of Hillary's comment about she supposed she could have stayed home giving teas to cast her as dismissive of women .

What was left out was the context and the conclusion of the sentence. Andrea Mitchell (Mrs. Alan Greenspan) confronted Bill at a restaurant after the White Water nothing "broke" (selected lies from the beginning) in the New York Times. How did Hillary's being a law partner affect the campaign in this regard?

 Bill told Andrea to ask Hillary directly. Hillary replied that she could have stayed home giving teas (typical First Lady behavior--which would have been expected in Arkansas), but she wanted to help  women have choices at different times in their lives--work or stay home as was appropriate for them. 

What Andrea broadcast was that Hilary supposed she could have stayed home having teas, which was an insult to all women at some level, right?

It does seem that a lot of young women who are jumping on their boy friends' Obama truck think that they will never confront the "glass ceiling"--that that is so their mother's life.

Here's the letter:

Dear Super Delegate:

At each turn in this historic election, I hear someone—a chairman, a pundit, a super delegate, an elected official, a reporter posing as an unbiased journalist, a line of people proclaiming to have the American democracy and my interest at heart—tell me by words and actions that I, a woman in my thirties with a degree from The University of Michigan, do not count unless I vote for Senator Obama. I am told the Democratic Party is making way for a new coalition, and I need to get in line or leave. 

I voted for Barack Obama as my Senator in Illinois with excitement and quiet pride. Since his run for the highest office in America, he has lost me, slowly and painfully, each time he and his public supporters chose division over unity, misleading words over promises of higher standards, sexism over human decency, race baiting and charges of racism over honest and open dialogue, misogyny over fair and equitable treatment for all, disenfranchisement over democracy, hypocrisy over personal integrity, and condescension over humility. If these choices are representative of the hope and change Senator Obama and his coalition seek, then I reject them all. 

My vote alone may not matter much, but multiply my one vote by a force of untold, silent number who feel as I do and you have a far-reaching and solid base that will never forget the transgressions Senator Obama and his public supporters deployed and inflicted on us in this election. 

The Democratic Party may have always unified in the past, but it is unlikely it will this time. To accept the transgressions displayed in this election would be akin to giving permission to repeat them to whatever end. I cannot do this and will not vote for Senator Obama as President. My vote, which is not transferrable, belongs to Senator Clinton, who has earned it. 

Should Senator Obama be the nominee against Senator McCain in the general election, I will write Senator Clinton's name on my ballot. Should Senator Obama go on to lose the presidency, then the super delegates and the DNC must ask themselves why did they put forth an unelectable candidate who believes in dismissing Michigan, Florida, working-class whites, women, Hispanics, Asian Americans, and the counting of all votes. 

Lessons are repeated until they are learned. But until then, how much will have been lost?

I ask you kindly to consider giving your support to Senator Clinton and make her our nominee. She will win and restore the Democratic principles that have been tarnished and lost over the past eight years. Senator Clinton is committed and will never stop fighting for America. She has the experience, perseverance, tenacity, and courage to be President of the United States of America.

Thank you for your consideration.

Sincerely,

A Voter</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(posted on Taylor Marsh). I wish I had written it. </p>
<p>But first, I really must thank the brilliant, indomitable,  Hillary Clinton for standing so tall in face of the hatred directed towards women in this society. Her example WILL make a difference. There are men and women who would never have considered a woman to be presidential material who are now in awe of her!  She has grown in our estimation. The more we see of her the more we admire her.(There has been a downward spiral with the hope/change (TM) ad campaign&#8217;s product.)</p>
<p>There are woman who cannot overcome their own internalized dismissal of their second sex. Some who have not even tried.</p>
<p>I think of two who have been gratuitous in their belittling of Hilary who have a larger voice than they deserve: Anna Huffington whose Huff Post had such potential, but sold out as a fluff piece even before it had Hillary in its cross-hairs, and Andrea Mitchell, who has been lying about Hillary since Bill&#8217;s first campaign, snipping a bit of Hillary&#8217;s comment about she supposed she could have stayed home giving teas to cast her as dismissive of women .</p>
<p>What was left out was the context and the conclusion of the sentence. Andrea Mitchell (Mrs. Alan Greenspan) confronted Bill at a restaurant after the White Water nothing &#8220;broke&#8221; (selected lies from the beginning) in the New York Times. How did Hillary&#8217;s being a law partner affect the campaign in this regard?</p>
<p> Bill told Andrea to ask Hillary directly. Hillary replied that she could have stayed home giving teas (typical First Lady behavior&#8211;which would have been expected in Arkansas), but she wanted to help  women have choices at different times in their lives&#8211;work or stay home as was appropriate for them. </p>
<p>What Andrea broadcast was that Hilary supposed she could have stayed home having teas, which was an insult to all women at some level, right?</p>
<p>It does seem that a lot of young women who are jumping on their boy friends&#8217; Obama truck think that they will never confront the &#8220;glass ceiling&#8221;&#8211;that that is so their mother&#8217;s life.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the letter:</p>
<p>Dear Super Delegate:</p>
<p>At each turn in this historic election, I hear someone—a chairman, a pundit, a super delegate, an elected official, a reporter posing as an unbiased journalist, a line of people proclaiming to have the American democracy and my interest at heart—tell me by words and actions that I, a woman in my thirties with a degree from The University of Michigan, do not count unless I vote for Senator Obama. I am told the Democratic Party is making way for a new coalition, and I need to get in line or leave. </p>
<p>I voted for Barack Obama as my Senator in Illinois with excitement and quiet pride. Since his run for the highest office in America, he has lost me, slowly and painfully, each time he and his public supporters chose division over unity, misleading words over promises of higher standards, sexism over human decency, race baiting and charges of racism over honest and open dialogue, misogyny over fair and equitable treatment for all, disenfranchisement over democracy, hypocrisy over personal integrity, and condescension over humility. If these choices are representative of the hope and change Senator Obama and his coalition seek, then I reject them all. </p>
<p>My vote alone may not matter much, but multiply my one vote by a force of untold, silent number who feel as I do and you have a far-reaching and solid base that will never forget the transgressions Senator Obama and his public supporters deployed and inflicted on us in this election. </p>
<p>The Democratic Party may have always unified in the past, but it is unlikely it will this time. To accept the transgressions displayed in this election would be akin to giving permission to repeat them to whatever end. I cannot do this and will not vote for Senator Obama as President. My vote, which is not transferrable, belongs to Senator Clinton, who has earned it. </p>
<p>Should Senator Obama be the nominee against Senator McCain in the general election, I will write Senator Clinton&#8217;s name on my ballot. Should Senator Obama go on to lose the presidency, then the super delegates and the DNC must ask themselves why did they put forth an unelectable candidate who believes in dismissing Michigan, Florida, working-class whites, women, Hispanics, Asian Americans, and the counting of all votes. </p>
<p>Lessons are repeated until they are learned. But until then, how much will have been lost?</p>
<p>I ask you kindly to consider giving your support to Senator Clinton and make her our nominee. She will win and restore the Democratic principles that have been tarnished and lost over the past eight years. Senator Clinton is committed and will never stop fighting for America. She has the experience, perseverance, tenacity, and courage to be President of the United States of America.</p>
<p>Thank you for your consideration.</p>
<p>Sincerely,</p>
<p>A Voter</p>
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		<title>Comment on Afternoon Open Thread by Gavche</title>
		<link>http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/2008/05/11/afternoon-open-thread/#comment-17356</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavche</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 04:51:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/?p=813#comment-17356</guid>
		<description>"from being nominated by particular sects in the party who may not represent a general electorate."

And more importantly, with so many open primaries and caucuses, from being nominated by Republicans. They're supposed to ensure that the Democratic nominee is the choice of Democratic voters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;from being nominated by particular sects in the party who may not represent a general electorate.&#8221;</p>
<p>And more importantly, with so many open primaries and caucuses, from being nominated by Republicans. They&#8217;re supposed to ensure that the Democratic nominee is the choice of Democratic voters.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Afternoon Open Thread by Pat Johnson</title>
		<link>http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/2008/05/11/afternoon-open-thread/#comment-17355</link>
		<dc:creator>Pat Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 04:04:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/?p=813#comment-17355</guid>
		<description>Maureen Dowd is a sick puppy.  The little girl that nobody liked in school.  The constant girlfriend.  The lady who never had a wedding planner.  A dried up, overpaid, mean spirited hack who sits at her computer exposing her neuoroses for all the world to see.  The NYT needs a complete housecleaning over there and she could use a new broom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maureen Dowd is a sick puppy.  The little girl that nobody liked in school.  The constant girlfriend.  The lady who never had a wedding planner.  A dried up, overpaid, mean spirited hack who sits at her computer exposing her neuoroses for all the world to see.  The NYT needs a complete housecleaning over there and she could use a new broom.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Sunday:  Happy Mother&#8217;s Day! by Chevalier</title>
		<link>http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/2008/05/11/sunday-happy-mothers-day/#comment-17353</link>
		<dc:creator>Chevalier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 03:38:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/?p=808#comment-17353</guid>
		<description>Good wishes to your brother and to your family - it's VERY hard living away from a loved one travelling for work even for a few weeks, let along months - and I can only imagine the pain when that separation is accompanied by fears and stress over that loved one's welfare. 

Hope this war ends soon and everyone American AND Iraqi is safe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good wishes to your brother and to your family - it&#8217;s VERY hard living away from a loved one travelling for work even for a few weeks, let along months - and I can only imagine the pain when that separation is accompanied by fears and stress over that loved one&#8217;s welfare. </p>
<p>Hope this war ends soon and everyone American AND Iraqi is safe.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Afternoon Open Thread by daria--g</title>
		<link>http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/2008/05/11/afternoon-open-thread/#comment-17352</link>
		<dc:creator>daria--g</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 03:34:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/?p=813#comment-17352</guid>
		<description>angelasmith, can that stuff stay OT?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>angelasmith, can that stuff stay OT?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Afternoon Open Thread by Anne</title>
		<link>http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/2008/05/11/afternoon-open-thread/#comment-17351</link>
		<dc:creator>Anne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 03:33:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/?p=813#comment-17351</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Unfortunately Rasmussen polls are part of these state by state polls, and they have called off their polling. Why?&lt;/i&gt;

I believe because Barry has been sinking in them for weeks...if  he was doing well , they would continue them .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Unfortunately Rasmussen polls are part of these state by state polls, and they have called off their polling. Why?</i></p>
<p>I believe because Barry has been sinking in them for weeks&#8230;if  he was doing well , they would continue them .</p>
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		<title>Comment on Afternoon Open Thread by daria--g</title>
		<link>http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/2008/05/11/afternoon-open-thread/#comment-17350</link>
		<dc:creator>daria--g</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 03:32:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/?p=813#comment-17350</guid>
		<description>I see Dowd as sort of.. the loudest and most obnoxious expression of what is probably conventional wisdom around there about Hillary, eg, contempt, WWTSBQ, she's a monster.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see Dowd as sort of.. the loudest and most obnoxious expression of what is probably conventional wisdom around there about Hillary, eg, contempt, WWTSBQ, she&#8217;s a monster.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Afternoon Open Thread by kiki</title>
		<link>http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/2008/05/11/afternoon-open-thread/#comment-17349</link>
		<dc:creator>kiki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 03:30:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/?p=813#comment-17349</guid>
		<description>open thread, so I'm just wonderin'......what in the world is Maureen Dowd's problem?  it seems like I used to like her (perhaps in a previous life) but lately she is so weirdly hateful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>open thread, so I&#8217;m just wonderin&#8217;&#8230;&#8230;what in the world is Maureen Dowd&#8217;s problem?  it seems like I used to like her (perhaps in a previous life) but lately she is so weirdly hateful.</p>
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