Kennedy Keeps Amblin’ to the Right

Ever since Sandra Day O’Conner left SCOTUS,  Justice Kennedy appears firmly to have found his place with the conservative ladies1ideologues.  (May the greater ethos protect us from what is further to come). What is most interesting to me about the recent decision known as the “white firefighter’s reverse discrimination cause”  (Ricci v. DeStefano) is that the same conservatives who decried judicial activism on the part of a left-leaning SCOTUS don’t appear to recognize the same imprint when it’s the conservatives actively push their own agenda.  This is an interesting decision and one that will make Sotomayor’s appointment to the court more even more eventful.  I’m hoping some of the lawyers among us will enlighten me further because this one’s out of area of expertise.  I only know that this is an important decision in many ways.

From the WSJ, and the piece Court Rules for White Firefighters . Kennedy writes for the majority.

The Supreme Court invalidated a Connecticut city’s decision to scrap the results of a firefighter exam after no black candidates scored high enough to ensure a promotion, a case that has been a lightning rod for high court nominee Sonia Sotomayor.

Justice Anthony Kennedy, writing the court’s 5-4 conservative majority, said the city of New Haven violated Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits employment discrimination.

“Whatever the city’s ultimate aim — however well-intentioned or benevolent it might have seemed — the city made its employment decision because of race,” Justice Kennedy wrote. “The city rejected the test results solely because the higher scoring candidates were white.”

Justice Kennedy said an employer cannot throw out an exam unless there is strong evidence that the test was unfair to minorities. In New Haven’s case the evidence was quite the opposite, he wrote, as the city took specific steps to ensure that black and Hispanic firefighters were consulted in designing the questions and made up a majority of the interview panels that awarded 60% of the applicants’ scores.

Chief Justice John Roberts and Justices Antonin Scalia, Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito joined the opinion.

So the judicial activism irony is not lost on Glenn Greenwald.

For all the chatter about “judicial activism” and that dreadful Roberts metaphor of “a neutral umpire calling balls and strikes,” it is so striking how frequently conservative judges invalidate policies which conservatives dislike as a political matter.  Here we have the conservative wing of the Court declaring illegal the employment decisions of local government officials, who used a political approach — diversity — which conservatives dislike on policy grounds.  So often, the outcomes of the allegedly neutral conservative judges are completely consistent with (and aggressively advance) the political preferences of conservatives (Bush v. Gore being only the most obvious example).  Indeed, few things are rarer than conservatives Justices invalidating policies that conservatives like politically, or upholding policies they despise — the true test for whether one applies the law independently of political and outcome preferences.

I’m not an attorney and only want to provide a forum here for discussion, but I will add a few more links for those of you interested in following this important case.

The New Republic has some interesting analysis here. It focuses on the decisions and Sotomay0r. Again, Kennedy’s swing vote is the topic of interest.  The piece is written by Tom Goldstein the founder of SCOTUSblog.

I am struck by the extent to which the majority opinion largely treats the court of appeals’ ruling as a non-event. To the contrary, Justice Kennedy almost seemingly goes out of his way not to criticize the decision below, notwithstanding that the Supreme Court takes a dramatically different view of the legal question. The Court indicates that the state of the law before today’s ruling was “a difficult inquiry,” and that its “holding today clarifies how Title VII applies.” It rejects the plaintiffs’ outright attack on the Second Circuit’s decision as “overly simplistic and too restrictive.”

Here’s some interesting  information on the Right Wing Spin from The Washington Monthly. Evidently, they just couldn’t wait to turn the ruling into a chance to attack Sotomayor.  And yes, the graphic above is my heading graphic on Skydancing showing the interplay between ladies justice and liberty.   I never miss an opportunity to use a great graphic that gets across the point of what something (like a ruling) should be.  That is especially true when we seem to be increasingly losing both justice and liberty, let alone the important links and interplay between them.

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121 Responses

  1. I thought this was slam-dunk case law from what I read when the decision was made by Sotomayor’s court. Isn’t the fact that no minorities passed the test “strong evidence that the test was unfair to minorities”?

    The wingnuts are so ridiculous with their trashing of Sotomayor for her overturn rate. This will put her over 60%. Oh noes! No matter that the average of all cases overturned by SCOTUS is near 75%. I never heard a word about any other nominee’s overturn rate ever. Turns out Alito’s is 100%.

    • The Supreme Court is also made up of majority reactionary loons. It’s the 33% where she agrees that worries me, not the 67. :)

    • Actually a minority (a Hispanic) DID pass the test to qualify for a promotion. The fact that no black person did not pass the test is NOT evidence that the test was racially biased. The city took extraordinary measures to make certain the test was racially neutral. Those are facts.

      Perhaps the blacks believed that they were a shoe-in because of minority preference and therefore didn’t study hard enough. I really don’t know. I do know that I have failed my fair share of tests throughout the years and never considered that the reason I did so had anything to do with race. It was because I didn’t study enough.

      This whole “liberal” mentality that everything is because of race is completely misguided. When everyone is given the same study materials and the same amount of time to study there are no racial barriers to the results.

  2. I have no problem with the Supreme Courts judgment in this case — because every effort was made by this fire department to insure a fair test for ALL.

    Whereas in the primary — every effort was made to help 0bambam “win” — even to the extend that 0bambam was given free points.

    Back to the Supreme court . . . What is important is a level playing field for civil service — and with a balance of oral and written testing — from what I’ve read the testing for promotion was extremely fair.

    For promotion — IF there are extra points for skin color or gender — then that would be an unfair advantage.

    • I have to agree with you NW. We, here in Chicago, have been living with this for a long time.

      It doesn’t matter if you are qualified or not, as far as the Chicago City Council is concerned, it’s all about skin tone. That is dangerous and it breeds anger.

      From what I am reading, as far as Sotomayor’s decision, she was within the law. She didn’t rule out of sympathy…

      The loons on the right will use this to try to derail her confirmation. I doubt they will win but there will be “noise” now that SCOTUS has overturned a decision she was part of.

    • I don’t disagree with the decision, I just can’t figure out why SCOTUS even took this case. Seems like this type of case has been dealt with many, many times. Sotomayor’s terse opinion seemed to indicate that the majority considered it well-traveled ground. I just wonder what type of mischief those rascally Supremes are up to? Maybe a little shout-out to the Cons or some fun before Summer break? Sending a message to Sotomayor and/or those who will confirm her? Dunno.

      • I keep hearing over and over that the terse opinion means it wasn’t well thought out. The talking point appears to be yet again that the gal doesn’t have the intellectual chops to produce tortured appeals to emotion like Kennedy’s.

        • Yep, just heard it again, “terse” equals “shoddy.”

          • “Terse” in a legal decision usually means “nothing to discuss”

          • I mean the critics I read and saw came out and said “this opinion is terse, therefore it is shoddy,” not that I’m reading in “shoddy” when I hear them say “terse.”

          • Shoddy would be a longer written decision that was poorly reasoned.

            Judges don’t usually write long decisions on well established areas of law. That would be reinventing the wheel.

    • Why are they testing for promotion at all? Why isn’t job performance evaluation the main factor in consideration for advancement?

      • that’s considered too subjective any more

        • Were the tests open to all takers, or do you have to be recommended?

          • i don’t know about that actually but I imagine that information has to be out there somewhere.

          • From the decision:

            To sit for the examinations, candidates for lieutenant needed 30 months’ experience in the Depart-ment, a high-school diploma, and certain vocational train-ing courses. Candidates for captain needed one year’s service as a lieutenant in the Department, a high-school diploma, and certain vocational training courses.

      • Because performance evaluations are subjective. The city wanted an objective criteria for promotions.

  3. It is an affirmative action case and, it’s been said, that since we now have Obama as president affirmative action is no longer needed.

    Conservative jurists have wanted to cut back affirmative action for quite some time. This looks like it could be a first shot.

  4. I had heard a few weeks back that there were several minorities who had passed the test and can still be promoted but that the top scores were the ones who got the promotions as in the past, if they move out of the job the next person on the list gets promoted – by the test score.

    In fact I believe one of those who were promoted is Hispanic but no AAs scored in that top tier.

    I’m as liberal as anyone here but we’re talking about a group of people who must be extremely knowledgable as people’s lives do depend on their knowledge. Being a firefighter is very serious business – again – people’s lives depend on a firefighter’s knowledge

    • I haven’t read the decision yet, so I don’t know what the history is in New Haven, but some fire departments like NYC do have a history of writing tests that do not relate to job related knowledge or performance but are deliberately designed to try and block certain groups. Considering that, it’s not surprising that courts would be cautious about accepting particular tests as value neutral.

    • Thank you, joanelle. This from the wife of a former firefighter, who has long been keenly aware that the lives of firefighters themselves depend on the knowledge, competence, good judgment (and sobriety) of those working next to them. It’s one thing to make breezy judgments on the SC decision. It’s another thing entirely to live with the real life results of well intentioned but uninformed idealism vis a vis potential life and death situations.

      • I agree. We once worked two nurses short in a major level 1 trauma centre because affirmative action insisted that we spend 6 weeks looking for hispanic trauma nurses before they would permit us to hire two well-qualified non-hispanic certified trauma nurses. This can be dangerous. As far as firefighters go, just send me someone qualified and I could care less about color, gender, religion or country of origin.

        • That is so true — I care not at all about minor details like “color, gender, religion or country of origin” when faced with a major emergency — I want someone who knows what the hell they are doing and that they are the best at what they are doing. You want a person who does not panic — and knows exactly what to do and knows the equipment.

          My husband is a retired firefighter/district Chief — so I know a bit about the dangers firefighters face and the training that they undergo to become firefighters.

    • 100 % with you! “people’s lives do depend on their knowledge. Being a firefighter is very serious business – again – people’s lives depend on a firefighter’s knowledge”

    • As well as how well they put that knowledge into action on the ground. I wonder if they test for that too?

      • When firefighters are called out — there are several officers who oversee and monitor the situation — plus there are fellow firefighters who work as a team. The rookie period varies from fire district to fire district — but each rookie should be under the microscope and their reactions and behavior is carefully monitored.

        Most firefighters are professionals — and their safety is on the line. WE want the very best in command — and so do firefighters.

        When 4 firefighters in Seattle died in an Arson-set blaze — thousands of firefighters from around the country turned out to honor these fallen firefighters. AND the commanders involved were put under the microscope. Commanders often deal with life and death decisions — some are good and some are awful.

        There’s a series of novels about firefighters and politics involved in Seattle firefighting — Earl W Emerson — his books give you a peek into the lives and politics of fictional characters — but he bases many of his stores on events and people in the Seattle Fire District.

  5. I can’t comment on the question of “law” but the approach of the city to throw out the exam because it didn’t have a desired result was not the proper way to deal with the situation. I think that they panicked and were afraid of being sued for racism. The best “affirmative” action approach would be to offer classes and individual instruction to those who didn’t pass and allow them to retake the exam. The implication that an exam that apparently was constructed to be “fair” is racist because of the result is racist. The AAs and Hispanics didn’t do well, not because of race but because of socio-economic and educational factors. The latter can be improved.

    • I haven’t had a chance to read the decision yet but I think it’s important to note that the city went out of it’s way to prepare a test that was racially neutral. The only evidence that the test was unfair to minorities were the results, and that could just be a statistical fluke.

      This is not a case where the minorities were alleging that the test was unfair. The city just decided to throw out the results to avoid being sued. Then they got sued anyway.

      • Ah, now I understand that better. And that explains what I saw as some of the majority opinion that fear of being sued was not enough reason to reject the outcome, especially since that was based on race.

        Sounds like the city was really wrapped in a pretzel and make a stupid, short sighted decision. They should have promoted some of that group and reworked the test or provided more training. Though it did sound like the city really bent over backwards to make it fair.

        It will be interested to get to the details because perhaps this will not be as dramatic as people fear if the city has such a peculiar reason for what they did (fear of litigation). But I’m not a lawyer.

    • Well, what if an existing basketball team wanted to make a “special part” of the team (maybe they’d play in special tournaments, AllStars or something) – so the team had tryouts. So all the applicants were already basketball players on the team. But only black men passed the tryouts and got to be promoted onto the special team.

      Would people be saying that was racist?

      Or would they be saying, well, they’re taller, faster, stronger, and they practiced more?

      I think they’d say the latter. That’s why I think the chances are that the firefighters who didn’t pass the test needed to study more. A dyslexic even passed the promotion test.

      In the real world, if we gave a test to a bunch of people, we wouldn’t naturally wind up with 100 winners, 52 which are women, 12 which are black, 20 which are hispanic, 15 which are gay, etc etc. Real life and fair tests don’t take affirmative action or demographic percentages into account. Therefore, a test which was painstakingly made fair but no blacks passed is not the problem, IMO.

      If I have to take a test, I study. If I don’t pass and can re-take, I study more and better. Why shouldn’t that be true for everyone? I understand some people have past SES or educational factors – but they’ve been doing the firefighting job for years. Somehow on the job, they didn’t pick up the things they needed to know to move up to the next level. I think the ball is in their own court…..

  6. I’m very happy with the SC decision. I hate all forms of discrimination and that includes the reverse kind that Sotomayor displayed. Just because some black guys couldn’t pass a test doesn’t mean that it’s racially biased. An Hispanic guy passed it. Are we to pretend that there isn’t a bias against education in the black community? Are we supposed to ignore what Bill Cosby has been saying? Remember the heat he took for saying what needed to be said?

    • Please don’t pollute our threads with wingnut talking points.

      Sotomayor made a ruling based on the law the way it was until today.

      • That she did Myiq. According to responses on the blogs, by prominent Constitution Lawyers and not the ones that played one while running for POTUS,….She issued her ruling within the Law. What SCOTUS did was legislate from the bench today. Something the “Wing nuts” cry when a “Democratic” judge issues a ruling they don’t like.

        Don’t you just love the hypocrisy?

    • You blogstalkers are cute. Really.

  7. There are 2 different issues here, if I understand it correctly. One is whether the test was unfair or racially biased – and all evidence is saying that it was not. So, no, it wasn’t fair for the city to throw out the results because of some presumption of racism. And I feel for those firefighters.

    The other issue is whether it was LEGAL for the city to do this, in the pursuit of diversity. That’s what Sontomayor ruled on – that the city could do that, legally. The SCOTUS has now disagreed, but her original ruling was not some wild-eyed deviation, in was in line with other rulings.

    I am of two minds about this. I think that affirmative action is a mixed bag, and no matter HOW a business or college or whatever responds to the problem of racial/gender diversity, those rules can be abused by both sides of the issue.

    Abuse of the argument “we are all color-neutral, it’s all on merit” (wink wink nod nod) has in the past been a handy cloak to hide some very entrenched racism. What is striking to me in this case is that the city did not want to throw out the tests because they really thought there might be some bias there, and wanted to go back and look more closely at the process. No, they were simply afraid of lawsuits. And THAT sort of mindset can skew the process just as much as bias can – because the goal becomes not fairness and diversity, but avoidance of accusation.

    It’s a very sticky situation, and while there are extreme screamers on both sides, I can honestly see both. So I end up saying that I don’t have a big problem with her original ruling, but neither do I have a problem with today’s SCOTUS ruling, either. Maybe that sounds waffley, but it’s my honest thought.

    • some how, you always boil things down to the sensible nitty gritty, I admire that about you.

      • Aw, thanks. :) I’m still mulling this one over.

        The law is pretty clear that the dept is within legal bounds to take steps to root out racism in their process, even if that means an innocent white guy losing his promotion. That’s what law and precedent says, and Sontormayor ruled that way.

        It seems to me that the SCOTUS cut a fine line, here. Basically what they are saying is that the dept’s decision was not a response to even potential racism or possible bias, but a decision made solely on the basis of race itself. And that the body of law that Sontemayor based her decision on can be utilized for the former, but not the latter.

        That’s sort of how I’m reading it, but It’s a very very fine distinction, IMO.

        I’m no lawyer, so I could be wrong.

        • It looks like the court based it’s decision on the distinction between “prima facie” and “strong evidentiary basis”

          It said the city needed a strong evidentiary basis to conclude they would be liable under a Title VII disparate impact lawsuit in order to throw out the test.

          • So what happens when they keep the test and then get sued? Can they throw it out retroactively after being proved right?

          • From the decision:

            If, after it certifies the test results, the City faces a disparate-impact suit, then in light of today’s holding the City can avoid disparate-impact liability based on the strong basis in evidence that, had it not certified the results, it would have been subject to disparate-treatment liability.

          • Is it just me or does that sound like the Court saying ‘we care about white people, screw off black people’?

          • no, i think the court just keeps saying, we’re white men, we’re here, get used to it!

          • No, that is not what the court is saying

          • But now there’s no liability, so regardless of what hard facts and arguments the minority fire fighters can muster to support their position once the test is used, tough luck on them. It’s already been decided on speculative arguments before the city decided exactly what actions to take.

    • I can find no argument with you wmcb. Thanks.

    • Nicely said. I’m thinking that perhaps this ruling may not change the law so drastically since it’s really about the cities reason for not promoting — fear of litigation — vs. any fear of bias in the testing and results.

  8. OT, but this was just sent to me by Ricki Lieberman–uber-Hillary supporter last year–and it’s a very clear testimonial for single payer:

    PLEASE DO NOT BE CONFUSED – A PUBLIC OPTION IS NOT A SINGLE PAYER SYSTEM

    [The following is from the prepared text of the remarks given bySteffie Woodlander, M.D., M.P.H. at a hearing on health care reform conducted by the Health Subcommittee of the House Energy and Commerce Committee on June 24 in Washington.]

    “I am a primary care doctor in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and associate professor of medicine at Harvard. I also co-founded Physicians for a National Health Program. Our 16,000 physician members support nonprofit, single-payer national health insurance because of overwhelming evidence that lesser reforms — even with a robust public plan option – will fail.

    Private insurance is a defective product. Unfortunately, the Tri-Committee health reform plan would keep private insurers in the driver’s seat, and, indeed, require Americans to buy their shoddy goods.

    Even middle-class families with supposedly good coverage are just one serious illness away from financial ruin. My colleagues and I recently found that medical bills and illness contribute to 62 percent of all personal bankruptcies — a 50 percent increase since 2001. Strikingly, three-quarters of the medically bankrupt had insurance — at least when they first got sick.

    In case after case, the insurance families bought in good faith failed them when they needed it most. Some were bankrupted by co-payments and deductibles, and loopholes that allowed their insurer to deny coverage. Others got too sick to work, leaving them unemployed and uninsured. And insurance regulations like those proposed in the committee bill cannot fix these problems…

    As research I published in the New England Journal of Medicine showed, a single-payer reform could save about $400 billion annually by shrinking health care bureaucracy — enough to cover the uninsured and to provide first dollar coverage for all Americans. A single-payer system would also include effective cost-containment mechanisms like bulk purchasing and global budgeting. As a result, everyone would be covered with no net increase in U.S. health spending. But these savings aren’t available unless we go all the way to single payer…

    A public plan might cut private insurers’ profits, which is why they hate it. But their profits account for only about 3 percent of the money squandered on bureaucracy. Far more goes for marketing (to attract healthy, profitable members) and demarketing (to avoid the sick). And tens of billions are spent on the armies of insurance administrators who fight over payment and their counterparts at hospitals and doctors offices. All of these would be retained with a public plan option.

    And overhead for even the most efficient competitive public plan would be far higher than Medicare’s, which automatically enrolls seniors when they turn 65 and disenrolls them only at death, deducts premiums directly from Social Security checks, and does no marketing.

    Unfortunately, competition in health insurance involves a race to the bottom, not the top. Insurers compete by NOT paying for care: by denying payment and shifting costs onto patients or other payers. These bad behaviors confer a decisive competitive advantage. A public plan option would either emulate them — becoming a clone of private insurance — or go under. A kinder, gentler public plan option would quickly fail in the marketplace, saddled with the sickest, most expensive patients, whose high costs would drive premiums to uncompetitive levels.

    In contrast, a single-payer reform would radically simplify the payment system and redirect the vast savings to care. Hospitals could be paid like a fire department, receiving a single monthly check for their entire budget, eliminating most billing. Physicians’ billing could be similarly simplified.

    Eight decades of experience teach that private insurers cannot control costs or provide families with the coverage they need. A government-run clone of private insurers cannot fix these flaws. Only single payer national health insurance can assure all Americans the care they need at a price they can afford.”

  9. The part of this ruling that kind of worries me is the SC expressing the opinion that fear of a lawsuit is not justification for what the city did. The city has been sued before for discrimination.

    The problem is that the Gov mandates something, like a non discrimination policy, and than leaves you between rock and hard place. What were the city’s options here? They couldn’t promote the white firefighters without facing a lawsuit and they couldn’t refuse to promote them without facing a lawsuit. What they did was the only other option, to throw out the results and refuse to promote anybody. And that resulted in a lawsuit, too. And than the SC rules that fear of a lawsuit is not valid reason for taking a particular action. Well, yes it is. If you screw up and somebody sues, you’re out a lot of money. Taxpayer money. What exactly was the city supposed to do in this situation? There was no viable option.

    • I’m gonna try to do an analysis tonight explaining the decision.

      It’s really not as terrible as some people are making it out to be.

      • I was hoping some one with a legal background would step up, but I thought it was important to discuss our first impressions and provide some links …

        unfortunately, i don’t have my filter set to politically correct and try to put a bunch of things out there before coming to conclusions so maybe now i need to add an explanation that I just tack links that intrigue me from all sides disclaimer to these kinds of things — although I was hoping that every one knows that I speak as no authority on matters of law

        • I’m trying to wrap my head around it, too, Daki, without giving in to my jerking knee. Here’s an interesting discussion from Slate. Their site is hard to navigate, so I haven’t made it through all the arguments and comments yet, but, the premise is that the lawsuit was filed before New Haven had a chance to adequately address the situation.

          This case went off the rails when this litigation was launched in medias res. No promotion decisions had been made. Having decided not to certify the test results, the city’s civil service board—had it not been for this litigation—would have next proceeded to determine how decisions would be made for this round of promotions, then applied that new criteria to those seeking promotion. What that criteria would have been and who would or would not have been promoted are completely unknowable.

          http://www.slate.com/id/2220927/entry/2221839/?from=rss

        • Were the promotion criteria posted by the fire dept. prior to the exam? I would be surprised if the exam was the only criterion. What about work history and evaluations by supervisors?

          • The Department has to follow the “rule of three”

            For each opening they have to pick one of the top three scorers on the test.

            You could be number 1 on the test with 9 openings and get passed over each time.

          • That link from Slate in Cinie’s post says the exam counts for 60%, twice as much as at many other depts.

          • Read the decision – it lays out all the facts

          • The 60/40 weighting of the written and oral exams was required by the city’s contract with the firefighters union.

  10. i agree with Supreme Court on this one those firefighters did not get there jobs for one reason . they were white & that wrong no matter wich way you look at it . Sotomayor’s was wrong in ruleing that way….

    • Sotomayor FOLLOWED ESTABLISHED LAW

      SCOTUS changed the law today

      • See, I’m not sure they did. I think they re-defined and interpreted and narrowed it, but I don’t think it was as sweeping as some are claiming.

        • I’ve looked at this several ways – I’m NOT a lawyer – and what I see is Sotomayor followed the law, SCOTUS looked at it from a constitutional viewpoint.

      • anyone out there that thinks affimtive action is ok & is a good idea . that a minoirty or becuse of gender should get a job just becuse of his or her race then you i guess your ok if they have there taken away for the same reason

  11. affirmative action is wrong & is discrimination

  12. nobody should get job just becuse of there race or gender & no one should have there taken away 4 the same reason

  13. Thank you Supreme Court for making the decision that you did today. This black women is looking forward to the day when affirmative action is gone. I don’t need your help to do anything US government.

    • I couldn’t disagree with you more. And, it’s not about “me.”

    • I would read the decision before you say that.

      • I did.
        Did you?

        • I’m in the middle of reading it right now – why don’t you tell everyone what it says.

          • Why not you? You are the one that assumes we did not read it but thanks for giving a sister the offer ;-)

          • Okay, you read it – why don’t you explain what it says???

          • For what purpose. I find it rather insulting that you assume I have not read it when if you have read my own blog which you dont you would know that I have been following this case from its beginnings as it was important to me as a person of color and as a former resident of New Haven.

            I don’t do pissing contests and if that’s what you are looking for perhaps you should find a gas station restroom.

            I respect you, lets keep it that way. If you want that to change let me know.

          • What pissing contest?

            You already read the decision and people have questions – why don’t you explain what the court said?

  14. We are all created equal, so treat me like an equal by assuming that women and minorities can excel on their own merits and not their race and/or genitalia.

    Right now inexperience is the only color in the White House.

    • It doesn’t matter how meritorious I am if I don’t get hired because the person doing the hiring would rather hire his fraternity brother.

      • Then why would you want to work for the jackass in the first place? Hell that happens in all black workplaces. One AKA hires another AKA. Do you really think affirmative action stops nepotism and friendly favors?

        Yes, I really do want to work for a racist bigot (thumbs up). If you can’t join em force em!

        Again white people of America, thanks for fighting on my own behalf. I would help myself but you didn’t ask me to.

        BTW can you work a little faster on those reparations…Afrocity needs a new pair of Prada shoes.

        • I don’t want to work for that jackass, or the next one, or the one after that. Before AA, all the jobs were filled by white guys, all the good jobs, and that was for the best, no money but no jackasses. Life was so much simpler then.

        • Also, you seem to have a hard time with the fact that AA affects anyone but you. All women of all races can benefit from AA, as can most or all men who aren’t white. So if someone says “I,” chances are that means not you, but them.

          • Seriously, I am well aware that AA is for underrepresented groups which includes those with disabilities, women, etc.
            I am a black woman so that is what I am speaking as.
            Has it really come to Afrocity doesn’t understand AA now just because I am against it. I am really loving this question of my intelligence on the matter yet I (yes I said I) am one of the proposed social underdogs that AA ‘help” being black and having a uterus, my brother is black and has a penis it helps him and my white friend Katie that has a vagina, and my lesbian friend Ally who has ovaries…Yes I get it. I am not for racial quotas and group preferences of any kind.

          • Atrocity, I do not question your intelligence in anyway. But when it comes down to “thanks for fighting for me, white people!” I go huh? Because AA affects millions of white people.

          • Seriously, I can only speak as a black woman. As much as I would love to have the hair and body of a Greek goddess, my genetics predict otherwise. I make it a point not to speak for anyone but myself.

          • You have beautiful hair, I can’t comment on your body because a) can’t see it b) possibly creepy, but…

  15. I’m only on page 26 of a 93 page decision but I can tell you now that this is not a repudiation of Affirmative Action.

    It deals with conflicting provisions of Title VII (disparate treatment vs. disparate impact) and doesn’t even involve constitutional issues.

  16. would anyone of you still be ok with Sotomayor’s ruleing if those firefighters where black or women ..

    • This decision is not about Sotomayor.

    • You already know the answer to that.

      • afrocity, your so right 2 wrongs dont make a right ..

        • I have a person that I am mentoring that happens to be African American. She is very professional, and will be an asset our profession. Her being black has nothing to do with any of it. We had lunch when I was in DC and she was very anxious about her career and why I do not know because she has a great job, networks well etc. She tells me that she feels that as blacks we are at a disadvantage and need to do 19xs what whites in our profession do. I was shocked that someone felt this way. I told her I do just fine and she says but I know the right people am attractive…
          WTF?

          I said I am good at what I do. You cannot get by in life on that and I never really did, be yourself and do your best and success will come. This notion that we have to work harder is a vicious cycle. Then she goes on to say that some think she got her job because she is black, which makes her work harder and blah blah blah.

          I told her that I believe in her for what she can do as a person and she should give others the opportunity to show her the same courtesy and if she feels disadvantaged what does that say about her self esteem let alone workplace motivation?

  17. its good 2 be abel to have such a spirited debate

  18. This is completely OT, but I hope someone FPs about Obama’s latest signing statement.

    President Obama signed the $106 billion war-spending bill into law Friday, but not without taking a page from his predecessor and ignoring a few elements in the legislation.

    Obama included a five-paragraph signing statement with the bill, including a final paragraph that outlined his objections to at least four areas of the bill.

    President George W. Bush was heavily criticized for his use of signing statements, declaring he’d ignore some elements of legislation by invoking presidential prerogative.

    The Obama administration announced in the statement it would disregard provisions of the legislation that, among other things, would compel the Obama administration to pressure the World Bank to strengthen labor and environmental standards and require the Treasury department to report to Congress on the activities of the World Bank and International Monetary Fund (IMF).

    “Provisions of this bill…would interfere with my constitutional authority to conduct foreign relations by directing the Executive to take certain positions in negotiations or discussions with international organizations and foreign governments, or by requiring consultation with the Congress prior to such negotiations or discussions,” Obama said in a statement.

    “I will not treat these provisions as limiting my ability to engage in foreign diplomacy or negotiations,” he added.

    WTF? Really, at this point, how much worse could a third Bush term have been? The O-blogs have some ’splainin’ to do on this one.

  19. SNin MN wo wo lets just hold up here i dont that ok to say about myiq2xu

  20. That was also supposed to nest. We have a nesting problem. :)

    Anyway, if you get a chance read Cinie’s link to Salon, some interesting info about New Haven in there I haven’t heard elsewhere.

  21. Whew, this discussion got heated pretty darn fast. I actually think the case has little to do with affirmative action in the end and instead is more about some twisted logic in the way New Haven make their decisions. But I’ll wait for the legal heads to do some more analysis.

  22. Not just nesting problems, but the order isn’t even matching the time stamps. I think wordpress is having a nervous breakdown.

  23. Well, see, in NYC, they looked at the test and went, “F—! Women can pass this, it’s based on job performance!” So they examined the criteria and put in a bunch of random physical tests that were unrelated to job performance but that most women couldn’t do. Problem solved. Likewise, if you have a test that no minority passes, it’s safe to assume it’s racially biased in some way

    Yes you have been cheated.,please sue to demand a return of tuition from any educational institution you’ve attended.

  24. Since some minorities passed it, and at least one was in the top tier, I’m not sure about that assumption here. Also I’m reading how enormously careful the city was about ensuring the test was fair. I would say it’s very possible that it was at least reasonably close to fair. But I could be wrong.

    But the bottom line here is the city didn’t throw the tests out and not promote any of those people because they thought the test wasn’t fair. In fact they said they were sure it was fair. They through the test out and didn’t promote those people precisely and only because they feared litigation from minority groups. And that narrow issue is what this ruling is about, not really reverse discrimination or any issues related to that. Just the narrow issue of the reason behind the cities action.

  25. Ha, that was supposed to be a reply to Seriously just above. Silly wordpress.

  26. I was talking to the troll who made a stupid generalized “argument” in reference to a history of discrimination in testing. As I said before, I haven’t read the case yet and don’t know about New Haven.

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