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Hullaballo – A Fauxgressive Freeperville

(Do not watch the above video unless you have a strong stomach – I’m not even going to describe what’s in it.)

Last week we discussed Digby’s role in last year’s meltdown of progressive blogosphere.  Digby was one of the most well respected bloggers until last year and Hullaballoo used to be one of my favorite stops in Left Blogistan.

Not anymore.  Digby discusses Palin vs. Letterman in her post “On Nuts ‘N Sluts” and starts out pretty good:

First of all, Sarah Palin does not look or act like a “slut” and it’s nothing more than a sexual fantasy to think of her that way. She married her high school sweetheart and has five kids. She’s a born again Christian. She does not dress provocatively, and she has said that she put her hair up and wore glasses specifically to take her looks off the table as much as possible. She’s an attractive 40 something politician, she’s not a Playboy model (not that there’s anything wrong with that) and it would be nice if she didn’t have to put up with that stuff. She’s not trying to “sex herself up” for the camera or anything else. There’s enough to criticize her for.

But she soon takes a right turn onto WTF? lane:

And making Palin into a feminist hero because of this cheapens feminism. This woman is defending herself and her own daughter, but as Governor she never quite finds the voice to defend other women who have average real life problems, like workplace discrimination, rapes or unwanted pregnancies. Her complaints are not coming from feminist principle but rather political opportunism.

Yeah, we all know that Sarah Palin doesn’t care about feminism because SHE’S AN EVIL REPUBLICAN CONSERVATIVE!!!!

If Sarah Palin were exactly the same person with the same opinions but she had gone to some Ivy League university and had a “D” instead of an “R” after her name she would be the darling of the progressive blogosphere despite her stance on abortion. The A-listers in Left Blogistan would fall all over themselves rationalizing her conservative moderate views because she comes from a red state.  UInfortunately for her she’s a Republican with a degree from a state college so she’s a “hillbilly from Wasilly”

But it it’s the comment thread to Digby’s post that is sickening:

With Sarah Palin in charge, by the way, if her daughter did get raped, she’d have to pay the police for the cost of a rape kit.

—————————————————————————

That Bristol was the subject of the joke was clear. Palin and her husband are either

1) Incredibly stupid or

2) Incredibly dishonest and just using this as a way to keep the camera on themselves.

I’m voting for number 2 personally. I don’t think there’s the slightest bit of honest outrage on the part of the Palins here.

—————————————————————————

Sarah Palin is using the supposed insult to her 14-year old daughter to pick a fight with a media elite, singing to her victimology-loving base. Letterman’s jokes were in poor taste; he’s admitted that.

But that this story remains aloft is entirely due to Sarah and Todd Palin, who have proven (yet again) that they will use their own children to advance the Governor’s political ambition.

Who’s the exploiter now?

—————————————————————————

Yeah, well, I’d still tap it…….

—————————————————————————

Sarah Palin does not look or act like a “slut”

Yes, she does. She talks and sparkles and winks like a cocktail waitress with a table of out-of-town convention-goers.

—————————————————————————

Digs…puh-lease. You say Ms. Palin does not dress provocatively. I demure: her skirts are always ass-hugging tight, her jackets tailored to show off the boobage, and don’t get me started on those little fuck-me pumps with the painted toenails.

Now, it is true that Sarah’s ass, tits, and toes are very Christian, but she does thend to, as Rupaul would say, “work it.”

Are we to think this is professional attire for a vice presidential aspirant? Maybe Barack should have worn low hangers to the debates to work his ass crack for votes too.

Sarah Palin is a hypocrite and a light weight media creation; Letterman was and is spot-on. I salute his bad taste; his “apology” was more entertaining than the original jokes. And anyone who thinks he was actually apologizing is not hearing the words and the tone.

—————————————————————————

And you’ll remember the Clintons didn’t parade their daughter out all the time as a model for all children, etc.

Not that I ever loved the Clintons, but c’mon people, you know they didn’t ask for it like Palin has.

—————————————————————————

Sorry, but Palin does look like a slutty airline attendant. She acts like one as well. She cakes on the make-up, and the joke was about buying make-up. She works her looks to attract GOP males. She is fair game.

Change “Sarah Palin” to “Hillary Clinton” and “slut” to “lesbian” and the crap thrown at Sarah isn’t much different from the wingnut slime of the nineties. Crap like that is why we moderate comments. Hit the delete button and let the sexist slugs and low-life misogynists go exercise their free speech rights somewhere else.


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187 Responses

  1. After readin that comment thread at digby’s post, I am completely disgusted by whatever the hell stands for “progressive” today. It sure as hell is not any traditional liberal or conservative value system I’ve ever seen.

    It’s more like tribal warfare of some kind with no values or rules whatsoever involved.

    • To elaborate lie, cheat, steal, whatever it takes to come out ahead just do it. The amorality of it all is obvious.

    • Very perceptive, Ralph.

      While Digby rants and raves about “rightwinger tribes” or “MSM Villages” or “Versailles,” she’s clueless that her own TRIBE has gone off the rails.

      But indeed, Digby now has her own “Village,” and decent progressives are repulsed by it.

      • Personally, I’m all for jettisoning the word let the obots have it. They can even call Obama a progressive President.

        I’ll stick with plain ol’ run of the mill liberal. I can deal with Hannity calling me a commie. It’s better than being lumped in with the likes of the above group.

        • I agree.

          The true liberals and “decent” progressives ran from Digby and her ilk.

          I don’t want any part of the high-school lunch table or the TRIBE she has created and nurtured by throwing them straw men red meat to fan their already off-kilter flames.

          These are Digby’s peeps, now. Her Village.

          No thank you.

          • So while Digby doesn’t get to decide who’s a feminist, you get to decide who are the “true” liberals and “decent” progressives? I’ve been in this fight a long time and I bristle at such pointless generalizations. I take the union movement as my model, which is based on building a coalition across narrow interests to achieve a broader goal. Ideological purity is comforting, but hardly ever strategic.

            Digby is one of the best bloggers out there. But it’s not enough that she puts all this time and energy into what she does – some of you sound angry because she won’t do MORE.

            Specifically, it sounds like some of you are mad because she won’t hate the same people you do. ?!?! Talk about WTF… that sounds like Fred Phelps territory.

            I really like this blog. I usually find thought-provoking commentary here and it fills an important niche. (As with any blog, I won’t always agree – especially when the anger takes over.) But is this kind of broad-brush character assassination the most productive way to spend time and energy? I’m as pissed off over the primaries as anyone, possibly even more. But I do subscribe to the philosophy that revenge is a dish best eaten cold.

            Simply because I (or Digby) keep feelings in check in hopes of making inroads elsewhere doesn’t make me – or her – your enemy. We’re not doing “bad” things – just different things. And sometimes a blogger has to pick her battles as far as comments go. There’s only so much emotional energy left.

            I can’t stand David Letterment myself, he’s just too mean for my taste and women are far too often his target. But no, I don’t think that makes Sarah Palin a feminist, either. A feminist has some sense of, and interest in, the wider world and how policies and perceptions affect ALL women, not just themselves and their immediate family.

            So far, I haven’t seen it. We’ll see.

            Lastly, the thing I hated most about last year’s primary was this tendency of bloggers (and commenters) to say incredibly nasty, mean, hurtful things about other bloggers AS IF THEY WEREN’T HUMAN BEINGS, simply because they fell in love with the sound of their own written voice.

            You do realize we’re all volunteers, right? Yes, even the A-listers.

            I know how infuriating it was last year to have people “read my mind” all the time and tell me what I was REALLY thinking and why. So like the great Bob Somerby, could we stipulate to the idea that no, we really CAN’T read each other’s minds? We can have opinions, but we’ll never really know.

            There’s an old political story. Republicans are 100 people who walk into a room disagreeing on 99 things, but come out united on that one thing they agree on. Democrats are 100 people who walk into a room agreeing on 99 things, but come out fighting viciously about the one thing.

            All too true.

          • Thanks for your input.

            Have you said anything to the people who decided we weren’t liberal Democrats?

            Remember when kos said Hillary wasn’t a Democrat?

            Why are we the only ones who are supposed to toe the line?

          • I decided not to come back to this thread because it was pretty draining.

            I just could past on this excellent comment, just along the way I think.

            Great job Susie.

          • myiq – of COURSE I have. I’ve argued with all those bloggers. But not all of them are capable of listening.

            You’re not the only ones supposed to “toe the line.” I didn’t say anything like that. I’m saying, why use tactics that we abhor when other people do it?

            I don’t deal with bullies by bullying back. I wait. The moment eventually comes.

        • compared with being lumped in with that tribe, commie is a superlative.

      • “and decent progressives are repulsed by it.”

        I’d just change that to “decent human beings”.

  2. Yes. Digby’s respondents (except you, of course) really DO sound like trailer trash freepers.

    But Digby doesn’t see that this represents the type of posters she attracts. (The same ones, folks, who called other posters “c*nts” and “dried up va-jay-jays” when those same posters were DEFENDING Digby during the primaries. Digby defended no one in that onslaught, so she’s left with what you see above).

    Choices have consequences, Digby. A non-decision IS a decision. Chickenshit.

    It’s really embarassing that this is all the “A-lister of progressive politics” can muster, for the American public to see as representative of progressives.

    Surely, we can do better than this.

    • It’s kind of funny that I used to use the term trailer trash pretty freely. Then life changed, I became poor and suddenly it wasn’t quite so funny anymore, freeper or not.

      • The primary was what killed “trailer trash” for me. Spending some time seeing working-class and rural Americans be smarter and more decent than the urban latte crowd made me doubt it as an insult.

      • I agree with you, G-cat. I’m just regular people, and proud of it

        My comment was sarcasm, really (not very well delivered, I admit), but Digby’s posters LOVED to use that term when battling anyone who disagreed with supporting Obama. We were all called white trash racists, cunts, dried up va-jay-jays, trailer trash who couldn’t understand Obama’s vaunted intellect (now called 11D chess), uneducated, ignorant , stoopid, racist, white trailer trash. TRUE

        I hate the term white trash, but if anyone represents what the Nauts described despising, it is now THEM.

        And Digby stood by and let that happen.

        There is some poetic justice , now, that Digby’s posters, as described by myiq, are showing their true colors. Everyone else left, when she allowed all the name calling.

        I guess it just depends on what standards one uses to choose A-listers, eh?

        • Mary: Just a note if you come back this way. I never really read a blog until I happened on TL and thankfully someone had a link to here. That was soon after TC was started so I know all about the comments.

          Digby, tho I never read her, seems to have dug her own grave and she must know this if she’s really as smart as everyone says. Of course smart doesn’t always mean one has a drop of common sense or courage.

          TC is my only A list blog. I think I’m just topped off on hearing those things repeated at the moment.

          But next week some dick will come along to flame myiq and I’ll be back to name calling too. I’m using all my hate up on doctors at the moment.

          Eh? Are you up north with me?

          • Sorry I missed this post. TC is my A-list blog, too. Such different opinions sometimes, but always respectfully and maturely expressed, and then a little naughty thrown in for fun, with no true meanness involved.

            After Digby’s tribe, TC was a real lifeline for me.
            Still is.

            I’m not up north, although I’ve lived up north. I’m currently in Spring, Texas (north of Houston).

            Our Houston Chronicle researched and proved that 4,000 dead people voted in the Harris County primary caucus (Acorn, I’m sure) in the primary. It’s why national news reported that Obama won, but Hillary actually won the real voting-machine primary.

            I’m not over it, yet. :)

  3. KO is a really disgusting pervert. There was an article last year on HuffPo describing his 24 year old live-in girlfriend and a few interesting words from former “dates” he’s had. I haven’t been able to avoid gagging anytime a clip of him shows up…cannot watch this guy.

    I will forever be amazed that anyone who saw the clips of Letterman’s “apology” now believes that he actually showed remorse and said he was sorry in any way, shape or form simply because these pathetic talking heads are saying he did, then showing the clip proving he didn’t.

    But, what Palin is getting in an apology is what the entire country is getting from the politicians they were conned into electing. SCAMMED.

    • Bob Somerby:

      By the way, if it’s on-his-knees sex you most enjoy, you have to watch KO do Letterman. One thing’s for certain: The mumble-mouthed star had his “transcript” straight when it came to this crucial topic! According to KO, Letterman apologized, atoned, said he was sorry—had done so Wednesday, for eight heartfelt minutes! Sorry! So you’ll see how Olbermann’s limbic brain works, this is how Letterman actually “apologized” and “atoned” for the joke which said Palin looks slutty:

      LETTERMAN (6/10/09): Now, here’s the other joke they’re upset about. “Number two: Bought make-up at Bloomingdale’s to update her slutty flight attendant look.” The only thing I can say about this is that I kind of like that joke. [Laughter]

      To KO, that sounded like an apology. Maybe he couldn’t hear Dave’s words over his own noisy efforts.

      • Bob Somerby is close to going insane. His language is becoming more colorful from what I remember.

        Hope he doesn’t go crazy or drink kool-aid. I always like his way of calling things what they are, and let the chips fall where they may.

        I sense that he is now beyond frustrated at the state of the media, and the stupidity and corruption of the so-called left.

        • Somerby has been banging his head against the wall trying to get the so-called Liberal Media to fight back against the smears. Then to see his tribe resort to the same behavior as the right and the media still defending the likes of Letterman must be wearing thin.

  4. “Her complaints are not coming from feminist principle but rather political opportunism.”

    Since when is Digby the ultimate arbiter on what constitues “feminism”? You would think she might have received a wake-up-call when the nature of comments on her blog changed once it became known she was a female blogger. Oh, and her refusal to honestly evaluate the differences between Hillary and Obama wasn’t based on political opportunism also, or did I miss something?

  5. I really didn’t want to do another Palin post but Olbermann and the crap at Hullaballoo were just too much.

    • I’m glad you did.

      These so-called “progressives” Digby’s site should be exposed for what they are.

      And Digby’s use of strawmen to avoid her own cowardice should be examined by all of us as embarassing for nuanced progressives.

      We can do better than that.

  6. With this batch feminism isn’t about allowing the women to make the options that best fit their desires. It’s all about ramming their choices down the throats of women. It’s ironic that they can’t see that they sound exactly like the lunatic right side of the aisle when they insist that all liberals must be Godless.

    Sarah Palin is part of a group that was instrumental in getting the Child Enforcement Act passed. They also helped pass the Domestic Violence Act. That apparently doesn’t count as feminism though.

    • Maybe this tribal aspect is one reason Obama has broken every campaign promise so far? He could hate his own supporters, they’re worthy of it. :-)

      • Well, he definitely is the leader they deserve. Every time anyone attempted to raise questions or concerns they were called names or derided for it.

        His supporters became a principleless mob more interested in “winning” then in how the game was played.

        At the end of the day they got exactly what they deserved. It’s just too bad that some of us that knew better are stuck with him too.

        • We’re all stuck with W2 now. That’s one reason I detest the morons who pushed him on us.

    • Sarah Palin has done more to help women than Obama has, fuck you very much Ms. Magazine and NOW.

  7. …and Digby earned her feminist creds by remaining silent during the primaries?

    Yup, she is the learned expert in that category…yes fer sher, by golly.

  8. Thanks for posting this.
    I knew Obermann was going (or has been) off the rails but it was still shocking to see the vitriol spewing from his mouth.
    Only thing missing in has rant was fleck of foam raind on his desk.

  9. I watched the video. Thank goodness I turned off cable TV. Olbermann lives in an entirely different world than I do. Did Digby offer any links to support her accusations against Palin? I’m afraid to look.

  10. Digby is a coward. And I always knew she was a female. (Very early on, I wondered who she really was, this person who was saying intelligent things – when I discovered she wasn’t saying who she was and no one seemed to know, I reviewed her style of writing and her choice of topics, and came to the conclusion she was female.) Now she’s a cowardly female. So she pretends to defend Palin, but then has to keep her readers happy by trashing her. I don’t care what hateful email, threats, or whatever Digby received. I do not care. She sold out to be in with the in crowd. And she continues to sell out. She needed to stand up – but she stood down. Disgusting.

  11. Is there a broader scope to this entire fiasco than what appears on the surface? You bet there is!

    Think about it for a second, Palin last week negotiated something huge with a foreign government and several corporaions to build a pipeline, a gigantic mega-project for to nations in a time of recession, not some bridge to nowhere, a real meaningful project that will benefit many and keep people warm for years!

    What has Obama done, spent the USA into worthlessness with no projects, just buying up bankrupt companies with tax dollars!

    What is Obama noted for, deflection! This smells of the same sort of deflecting orchestrated by the Obama thugs (Axelrod in particular) to deflate the monumental achievement of Sara Palin by unleashing one of Obama’s attack dogs, David Letterman to cause an uproar and to keep her achievement on the back burner so as to not allow people to see the strength she has over the one the basement lowlifes managed to elect as POTUS!

    Sara Palin has delivered for the people of two nations at vurtually no cost to them, Barack Obama has deivered pizza at a tremendous cost to the American tax payers!

  12. John Cole (from downstream):
    “There are lots of reasons to dislike Sarah Palin, there are lots of reasons to not be impressed with her leadership, her beliefs, or, well, anything about her …”

    Digby:
    “There’s enough to criticize her for.”

    I wonder, why is it so difficult to forget about partisanship and just defend another human being (even a politician!), without the disclaimer, “But …”?

    • I wonder, why is it so difficult to forget about partisanship and just defend another human being (even a politician!), without the disclaimer, “But …”?

      I agree with this. Every time someone say anything defending Palin or any other conservative woman, it has to come with a caveat; that caveat always makes their defense feel insincere.

      • Sorry, bout that. Guess the “quote” tag failed.

        • Regency,
          one of the main definitions of caveat is “qualification” or “explanation.” That is how I relate to the word, anyway. I don’t think there is anything wrong or negative with an individual explaining themselves on a complex level.

          Some of my beliefs can have a somewhat convoluted origin and using caveats to explain that complexity is essential for me often times. My beliefs & explanations are NOT insincere. In fact, it is often intimidating for me to post anything at all (personal especially) on a blog. I make my statements with some trepidation & though sometimes intimidated I will, finally, do so out of conviction.

          I’m not offended by your statement (you are being honest and I respect that) but I hope you don’t negate people that communicate differently than you.

          I was actually registered as a Republican for many years (and attended a private christian school during my childhood). I had liberals criticize me when I was conservative and conservatives have criticized me as a lefty. Currently, I’m registered as an Independent & feel really comfortable as a free-thinking non-partisan citizen.

          In general, I suppose, I am looking to move beyond black ‘n’ white Lib/Conserv name-calling. I figure most people here at TC are on the same track (no matter how they self-identify).

          Also, Palin uses caveats quite often in her speaking (as do most humans). I don’t think that *her* use of caveats makes her statements insincere either.

          I talked about this stuff to Pips too (since I tend to use the word “but” as a clarifier & now realize that some people consider that term some form of co-out, I guess ) & I’m just mainly addressing it out of respect for ya’ll and furthering understanding. I hope you will know that when I’m commenting on the blog that I *truly* care about what I say & *believe* in what I say.

          I like to be respectful (and I also like to make jokes!) but I’m definitely not a kiss-butt, fluff talker ;-)

          • I think that what Regency was saying was that when you get liberal feminists defending Sarah Palin by saying “I totally hate all of her policies, but I think it’s terrible that people are calling her a (fill in the blank)”, it comes off an awful lot like those gutless “I’m not a feminist, but…” comments. It kind of weakens the statement. Why should it matter what your political identity is when you’re defending someone against unfair attacks?

      • Something about Sarah Palin really, really gets to Obama Democrats. I think the hate from the primaries somehow transferred over to Sarah almost immediately after McCain announced her as a running mate. I remember the hysteria. Probably because they knew that due to the incredible misogyny from the primaries that Palin would be a threat to Obama the Messiah. They had to smear her in any way possible and they did it by using the stupid slut stereotypes to convince people not to vote for her. The thing is, Palin wasn’t even running for president! It was absolutely incredible to see that amount of hysteria and hate directed towards a VP candidate. I’m almost certain that if McCain had chosen Romney or even Huckabee that the Left would not have responded in such a horrible way. Palin is an attractive woman who connects with middle America and that scares the heck out of the liberal elite. I don’t agree with her political views but I agree that as a human being and as a woman Palin should have the support of so-called feminists. Unfortunately, even Feminist Law Professors has joined the Palin hate bandwagon for no damn reason other than Palin had the nerve – the nerve! – to visit feminist landmarks in upstate NY:

        http://feministlawprofessors.com/?p=11182

        I’m honestly mystified at the reasoning behind why anyone would be disgusted by this. Palin is either a b*tch for being an anti-choice conservative or a b*tch and an opportunist if she shows even a hint of pro-women beliefs. I mean, when will Feminist Law Profs or Digby, or any of these guys show that much anger towards Obama for appointing anti-choice activists or comparing gay marriage to pedophilia? The hypocrisy and irrationality is astounding.

    • Uh oh, Pips — you will probably be disappointed with me, then because I use that word all the time! :-(

      My understanding of the word “but” (and the reason I use it) is to show complexity in my opinions, background, and personality. I’m not a ONE-way linear thinker. I am always evolving and there are lots of sometimes & paradoxical aspects to who I am (as I think everyone is complex).

      one definition of paradox:

      I’m an ex-Catholic & ex-Baptist but I don’t have exodus guilt-
      I’m currently an agnostic but I don’t disdain people of faith-
      I am creative but I can’t draw, paint, sculpt, worth a wit –
      I’m in my late thirties but sometimes channel “inner-teen” :-)
      I hate smoking but I don’t care if other people do it-
      I’m a feminist but I don’t agree with all feminist statements-
      I am attracted to men but I’m also attracted to women ;-)
      I am a modern thinker but I’m also old-fashioned-
      I need to be near urban areas but I miss the country life-
      I like dressing like a slob but I also like dressing *UP!*
      I am feminine but I also act like a tom-boyish geek-
      I like *stuff* but I don’t own a lot of *stuff*
      I have lived in San Fran but I’m not into astrology (snark)
      I can speak like an intellectual but I also speak ghetto-
      I’m silly but I’m also serious & passionate about issues-
      I’m talkative & enjoy group stuff but I’m also a loner-
      I’m very white valley-girl but I don’t “dance like no white girl”
      I’m a cat lover but dogs are ok too
      I’m a little bit country but I’m a little bit rock’n’roll (add soul) :-)

      All-in-all I’m an independent thinker

      There are many parts to the whole and I need a way, at least linguistically, to communicate the complexity. Using the word “but” helps me but a link in between the differences, tying it together.

      none of these realities are less genuine just because they show up on either side of the word “but.”

      I respect your viewpoint *but* respectfully disagree.

      Hope you understand & I appreciate your statement, Pips!

      Differences of opinions always help me to logically assess my own behaviors and philosophy. I consider differences & debate to be healthy (as long as there is no malice involved).

      ok, as I’ve mentioned before
      I can be long-winded —
      So, I’ll STFU now :-)

      • I see what you mean, and no I’m not disappointed with you. :)

        It’s just that sometimes there’s no need for the “but”, and using it makes a statement appear halfhearted – as if you (as in anybody) want to cover your butt at all costs.

        • It’s exactly what Obama does.

          And his supporters call it “nuanced” and intelligent, as in 11 dimensionsl chess.

          Pick a standard, and apply it across the board.

          Otherwise, one becomes a hypocritical, partisan hack, like Digby.

          • The majority of people use caveat words such as “however,” “but,’ “yet,” “or,” “on-the-other-hand,” … on a regular basis in speaking & writing.

            (Maybe there are some people out there who NEVER use these words. I don’t personally know any of them.)

            Use of those words does not mean that people are hypocritical or partisan or hacks.

            *Actions* are what let you know when someone is a hypocrite.

            I pay attention to Obama’s *actions* (cheating people) & *attitude* (snob) more than his words- (most of them being written for him, in fact)

            I don’t want to be lumped in with a Obamo-jerk just because we speak the same English language.

        • Ya, I think I understand where you are coming from as well. (and glad you aren’t disappointed in the way I communicate!)

          I use caveats as a way to be accurate & genuine in my writing & talking (NOT to be a lilly-livered butt coverer) ;-)

          In my past I’ve had a tendency to make broad-brush pronouncements that end up not really representing the nuances in my belief-system. My brain doesn’t think in absolutist sound-bites & so I don’t really want to talk that way.

          As I get older, I’m trying to become more logical & precise in my communication and use of caveats helps me to do this. Course, I can also be quite silly & a crude potty mouth at times! (It breaks up the clinical, analytical side of my nature) :-)

          Anyway, Pips, you are right that there are also probably times when using “but…” is not needed in a statement. I appreciate that.

          I don’t really want to self-edit too much at the confluence (because i wouldn’t feel authentic anymore) yet I would like to be respectful of other people’s values regarding semantics.

          I already try to be careful with my use of the word “elitist,” now since I’ve realized (just recently) that it can also be perceived as offensive to some.

          I’ll keep using caveats….however, I’ll also try to be more conscious about it.

          I just hope you know that I’m not a halfhearted, wimpy-ass! (ok, definitely some pun intended there) ;-)

          Thanks Pips (and Regency as well), for the sentiment & discussion!

  13. Just a couple of questions:

    Has Sarah Palin become the litmus test for feminism? If so why?

    Has she become Mrs Perfect, because I have the failing no one is allowed to remotely criticize her even when it’s warranted.

    I wish I had seen one tenth of this passion in defense of Sonia Sotomayor when she was being trashed any which in the media, maybe Palin is the only woman who deserves any defense from the Progressives 2.0

    or the record, I found Letterman’s jokes about Palin absolutely appalling and I want every woman to be treated with respect, even in the political arena.

    I haven’t read Digby’s post but in the excerpts MyIQ posted here, she makes absolutely valid points.

    I still don’t see how Sarah Palin acquired this sainthood status and having your conception of feminism defined or approved depending on how hard you defend Sarah Palin is downright bizarre to me.

    • Sarah Palin is a litmus test. If you can criticize her on policy without resorting to sexist attacks, you’re a liberal feminist. If you defend her policies without using sexist talking points, you’re a conservative feminist. If you attack her using sexist language and tropes, you’re a sexist. And if you claim to be a feminist, but think it’s okay to attack her using sexist language and tropes because, hey, she’s one of THOSE women, those bad ones that don’t count, then you’re a stupid misogynist asshat.

    • Criticize her all you want. Sarah Palin is the current punching bag of the media and “left” blogs, and she is being attacked by them in a completely nonsubstantive and sexist manner.

      When David Letterman or some other TV personality makes a disgustingly misogynist comment about a teenage girl in Sonia Sotomayor’s family, please let me know. I’ll gladly write an outraged post about it. I don’t watch TV, so if it has already happened, please let me know ASAP.

      • I think you missed my point.

        Digby’s post is perfectly fine. She doesn’t deserve the trashing she received here because of it. She made absolutely valid points because I have now read her post.

        Maybe she doesn’t agree with MyIQ about what “a feminist looks like” but that’s a different story.

        I have just noticed the tendency to elevate Sarah Palin to Sainthood and I wonder where that comes from. Where is now ANY criticism of her off limits? Because that’s what has been going on large partrs of the Pumasphere.

        • I think Myiq agrees that Democrats can attack Palin on her policies. He has said that he would prefer to vote for a liberal over a conservative Republican.

          I don’t doubt that there are many things wrong with Palin. And IMO she doesn’t hold a candle to Hillary Clinton.

          What I found offensive about Digby’s post is that:
          1) Letterman’s “jokes” about Palin being a slut and her daughter having sex with an older man was not “trivial” as Digby said. If Letterman or another comedian (or conservative commentator) said the same thing about Obama’s daughters, the feminist orgs and liberal blogosphere would be up in arms demanding an apology or for his suspension/firing. Why shouldn’t we demand the same when it happens to Palin? Anyway, I think this was the last straw for many of us. I only wish women had been as vocal as Palin has been when Hillary and Chelsea were being attacked last year with the same kind of sick, twisted sexism that Letterman displayed (and believed he was going to get away with).

          2) Letterman was in fact talking about Palin’s 14-year-old daughter Willow. Regardless of whether or not he was mistaken about which daughter attended the Yankees game, it was Willow and not Bristol who attended. So yes, Letterman’s joke implies the rape of Palin’s underage daughter.

          3) What is wrong with Palin defending herself and her daughter? And why can’t Palin be applauded for standing up for herself? Hillary did the same thing to Schuster and I assume Obama (and the blogosphere) would do the same thing if it were Malia and Sasha being attacked.

          Obama is the one running the country and has the power to truly change things for women and the gay community. Instead, we’ve only seen him break every promise he’s ever made to the gay community and hire an anti-choice activist to the Department of Health and Human Services. The Left has the audacity to call this guy a feminist and a liberal but Palin can’t be identified as a feminist for speaking out against the degradation of young women by comedians like Letterman? Yes, political opportunism always plays a role in whatever a politician chooses to denounce in public. But so what? It’s hypocritical to let POTUS get away with conservative policies and still call him a liberal/progressive/ Democrat but attack Palin just because she used 10 minutes on television to denounce the continued attacks on her family.

          • “What is wrong with Palin defending herself and her daughter? And why can’t Palin be applauded for standing up for herself? Hillary did the same thing to Schuster and I assume Obama (and the blogosphere) would do the same thing if it were Malia and Sasha being attacked.

            Remember how the progressive blogosphere complained that Hillary was playing the victim and exploiting what Shuster said for political advantage?

            I remember that Josh Marshall criticized Hillary over it and it was echoed through Left Blogistan. What did Digby do then?

          • You know how it is with cold calculating Lady Macbeth shrews. They experience JOY when their families are attacked! They can use it! Human pain is like laughter to them.

          • Digby’s post is fine.

            You may disagree with her perception of what “trivial” is. I think she said it was appalling but not to the level of the cause celebre some are making it.

            Let’s not get carried a way here. When did Palin carry out those fights? Has she ever denounced the likes of Limbaugh? Didn’t she say Hillary was whining at the Conservative Women Forum when Hillary complained about the treatment she was receiving?

            I for one think Plain is not all the great thinks some here are making her to be.

            This is exactly the type of devotion Obama received and we know how great that turned out.

          • She’s carrying out the fight now while Democratic men are making rape jokes.

          • “Didn’t she say Hillary was whining at the Conservative
            Women Forum …”?

            No, she didn’t!

            She said, that it was perceived [by some] as whining!

        • Valid points?

          “Her complaints are not coming from feminist principle but rather political opportunism.”

          And what is absolutely valid about that point? Can Digby read minds? Does she cite any proof that Sarah has no feminist principles?

          Sarah went on the Today show to talk about an LP pipeline project. She was asked questions about Letterman and she answered. How was that “opportunism?”

          • Agreed. She probably knew that the feud with Letterman was the real reason why she was invited on the Today Show but the interview was meant to focus on the LP pipeline project.

            After Matt Lauer spent about 4 minutes on the pipeline project, he brought up Letterman and spent the next 10 minutes trying to rip Palin apart and use her statements against her. Why aren’t Digby and Keith Olbermann attacking Lauer for his own opportunistic reasons for inviting Palin on the show rather than blaming Palin for giving intelligent and valid answers for why Letterman was in the wrong?

          • It really is amazing when you think about. Palin is minding her own business doing standard politician stuff and Letterman uses the fact that she was in NYC to verbally attack her and her family and get some cheap laughs.

            When asked about it, Palin defends herself and family and concurrent with online outrage the whole thing blows up in Letterman’s face. He then issues, at best, a lame “apology” which, Palin rightfully mocks. So then she goes on Today and Lauer sepnds most of the time grilling her and defending Letterman and SHE is the “opportunist”! Amazing…

        • I’m sorry but that’s ridiculous. There is no “tendency to elevate Sarah Palin to Sainthood and and what you claim has been “going on in large parts of the Pumasphere” is simply not true.

          You engaging in the same type of rhectorical sidestepping nonsense that Digby is – the “Yeah, but…” nonsense. It goes like this – “Yeah, what Letterman siad about Palin was awful and sexist but….making her into a feminist hero blah, blah, blah.”

          Firstly, there is no “yeah, but…”. It’s yeah…period. Her political views are irrelevant in this “Letterman” matter.

          Secondly, pointing out the continuing crazed misogynistic attacks against Palin and, more importantly, that feminism doesn’t just apply to people whose opinion you agree with, is not making her out to be a “feminist hero”.

        • MABlue,

          In the comment I replied to, you wrote:

          I haven’t read Digby’s post but in the excerpts MyIQ posted here, she makes absolutely valid points.

          I thought Digby made good points about Letterman’s crude and cruel humor and about the stupidity of calling Sarah Palin a slut. I think Digby is incorrect when she says it was obvious that Letterman was referring to the older daughter, since it was the 14-year-old who was in Yankee stadium. He has to live with that, because no one can read his mind.

          Here is where I have a problem with Digby’s piece:

          …she never quite finds the voice to defend other women who have average real life problems, like workplace discrimination, rapes or unwanted pregnancies.

          This is pure distortion and not backed up by any evidence.

          You also wrote:

          Has she become Mrs Perfect, because I have the failing no one is allowed to remotely criticize her even when it’s warranted.

          [....]

          I still don’t see how Sarah Palin acquired this sainthood status and having your conception of feminism defined or approved depending on how hard you defend Sarah Palin is downright bizarre to me.

          I haven’t seen anyone arguing that Palin is a saint or that “no one” should be “allowed to remotely criticize her even when it’s warranted.” What was the legitimate criticism that Letterman made? Palin is in the news because of what Letterman said.

          I think any criticism of Palin’s policies is fine, but I’m not all that interested in her because she is peripheral to my life. Why don’t you go ahead and criticize her if you want to instead of putting up strawman arguments?

          • Digby: …she never quite finds the voice to defend other women who have average real life problems, like workplace discrimination, rapes or unwanted pregnancies.

            Ummm….like Barack of Michelle Obama have done anything since the inauguration to fight for the rights of average women? Can someone PLEASE tell me what the Obamas have done, the political power they have spent, to solve the real life problems of women who have experienced discrimination or have been raped or want to abort and unwanted pregnancy?

            WTF? If Palin is so stoopid and irrelevant, why are the liberals still placing blame on her for the nation’s problems when it is Obama they voted into office?

          • MABlue,

            Your confusion over this may be because you aren’t a woman. Women who went through the primaries seeing the misogynistic attacks on Hillary and seeing them dismissed again and again in the media and on the left blogs recognize what is happening to Palin. She is getting the same treatment as Hillary did.

            This is something we women recognize because most of us have experienced it in our own lives. If women get too “pushy,” too successful, too “uppity,” they get slapped down, and not with substantive criticism but with sexist, misogynistic verbal attacks and worse. In that sense Sarah Palin is one of us. We can identify with what is happening to her.

          • Your confusion over this may be because you aren’t a woman.

            Oh no you didn’t.

            (I’ve removed the analogy I made)

            I’m in agreement with Digby and you seem to be in agreement with MyIQ, so it’s not necessarily “the woman thing”.

            Again I don’t agree with Letterman’s (non-)joke and I abhor any type of sexism and misogyny (you bet I’m very sensitive to that).

            Going by the post and the comments about Palin in the Pumasphere and even here, you can’t come to any conclusion other than she’s off a saint, brilliant, perfect and must be off limits.

          • Well, maybe you could elaborate on why you agree with digby. We’re all writing long explinations and you just keep repeating that digby is right and palin is sacrosanct, this discussion doesn’t seem to be making much headway.

        • Myiq pointed out why he has a problem with digby’s post.

          In the liberal blogosphere for as long as I can remember, women who care about feminism have been told to shut up and get behind this week’s cretin Dem who has a crappy record on our issues. We’re a big tent, and women who have the unmitigated gall to vote on our concerns are childish single issue intolerant obstructionists who need to shut up, go do the grunt work and get behind the guy with the crappy record. Stop talking about it, stop being selfish, he can win and he has a good
          record in areas that actually matter. There are no litmus tests, intolerant selfish ones.

          And then, happily right in the midst of this “c—–!!!!!” hysteria that’s been unleashed, we find there is a litmus test and we’re supposed to get out hate on for Palin because in digby’s opinion she’s not the most hardcore woman’s
          rights advocate who ever lived, and in fact
          may be comperable in her opinion to our
          losers, who we still have a moral obligation to support as much as we have this moral obligation to trash Palin?

          You have every right to feel however, but those of us who are annoyed have every right to have had it up to here with this stuff.

    • To put it in another way: Criticism is okay. Sexism is not. Lollipops are okay. Sexism is not. Puppies are okay. Sexism is not.

      The critical distinction is between criticism and sexism, which are not ever the same thing.

    • The problem that I have is that I don’t see all that much difference between Palin’s stand on the issues and Obama’s. Actually, the only difference is that Palin tells you up front where she’s coming from while Obama lies to your face.

      I don’t think she’s a saint but I admire that she doesn’t back down from these vile attacks. Thank goodness someone with a national platform is doing it. Women and girls need someone who will confront the disgusting deluge of sexism and misogyny that has been inflicted upon us.

      The all out war on American women began in the primaries and it is showing no signs of letting up. From where I’m standing it appears Sarah Palin is the only politician who has the guts to raise a voice against this onslaught of hate. And for that she has my deepest admiration and respect. And she’ll probably have my vote if she manages to snag the Republican ticket in 2012.

    • mablue2, I relate to some of your sentiments here:

      Digby *did* make some valid points (though she also made invalid points along side the good stuff…I’m being subjective, or course)- I mean, I agree with you that I don’t think Digby is the feminista anti-christ.

      I also respect your statement of “…having our conception of feminism defined or approved depending on how hard you defend Sarah Palin” — tis true, the embracing of one woman Icon should not necessarily be a “welcome to the feminist-club secret door knock” —

      In the long run, I think woman can sometimes sabotage each other by bashing each other’s “loyalty purity”

      Also, I don’t think Palin is perfect (though I don’t think I’ve heard anyone on TC make that assertion) and, of course, deserves scrutiny for policies– hell, all public servants need scrutiny (even FDR stated this need).

      However, I think that for many Palin-supporters…

      the issue isn’t that Palin is Oh-mighty Feminist Queen, but rather than folks have had to scramble to keep up with the lop-sided amount of trash-talking, sexist (and plain violent hate) crap thrown at her consistently since her emergence from obscurity.

      Here is the simple comparison I do in my brain:

      Just substitute take some of the general (MSM and citizen) outrageous & vociferous hatred attacks pointed at Palin & Palin’s children/family, in the last few months… and substitute Obama and Obama’s children as targets:

      “Hey everyone, Malia just got knocked up — ha, ha!”
      “Obama is a ego-maniac exploiting his children”
      “Obama is a male-whore druggie”
      “Obama looks like a male prostitute”
      “Michelle Obama is a stupid c-nt”
      “Obama’s children deserve getting raped”
      “his kids: I’d hit it, even though they are stupid b-tches”

      there is so much more I could list but don’t have energy right now…/

      Basically, though — there are some fundamentally double standards being applied

      They were applied to Hillary & also to Palin

      Really, I think People admire Palin because her candidacy stood out as a spot-light on hypocrisy. But that does not mean that people see her as a saint.

      (Again, I’ve never seen that assertion on the confluence so I don’t know if you were using hyperbole as a debate method…but, in general, I don’t think you need to exaggerate to make the valid [an IMHO justified point, that feminists should be able to discuss Palin’s merits)

      Overall, MABlue2, my impression is that you are coming from a legitimate place of wanting people to feel free to critique Palin on policy & not feel like she is some “untouchable” light-bearer (something TC’ers find distasteful in Obama-one Kenobi)

      I think that’s definately valid. No human is god and the more power that a person aspires to attain, the more scrutiny in warranted.

      However,
      As for Digby, I disagree on her following statements:
      1) “..making Palin into a feminist hero because of this cheapens feminism…..”

      – “cheapens feminism” !?!?!? Did she write the book? Is she our oracle now? Since when does Digby get to determine that Palin is the “Blue Light Special” of feminists. Digby is NOT god either & not the ultimate feminist spokesperson. She sounds entitled & ignorant.

      2) “…This woman is defending herself and her own daughter, but as Governor she never quite finds the voice to defend other women who have average real life problems, like workplace discrimination, rapes or unwanted pregnancies…..”

      – Hypocrisy alert! – Yo! — Digby is critisizing a well-known woman leader because she doesn’t “defend other woman” with real life problems — (sputter, cough, cough!)
      Hello! Digby — where have YOU been in defending women? There have been many women corpses under the bus in the last year, with nary a peep from your Hulbaloo. In fact, isn’t Digby the person who kept her gender hidden, staying under the blog radar for self-preservatinist reasons, refusing to disclose that she was a woman.

      I don’t have a problem with Digby hiding her gender (its a survival thing). and I don’t necessarily have a problem with her standing by, as other women got shot down left and right (no pun intended) in this last year’s political gender mascre.

      However, Hiding on the side-lines with the popular crowd & then conveniently throwing rocks at scarlet letter girl doesn’t seem fair, IMHO

      • Nice post, Madrigal.

        • thank you. I feel like I’ve been perhaps talking (venting?) too much on posts, the last few days, and I DO worry about offending TC’ers with my opinions sometimes.

          I respect this group tremendously & I don’t want to make stupid or disrespectful statements (even if unconsciously).

          Thanks again, Sandra S.

  14. I still think that Digby is a terrific writer but she attracts a low crowd.

    • Digby lost all credibility last year.

      • Yep. Digby DID attract a very high crowd. But she allowed the low crowd to trash the high crowd with namecalling even Digby was offended by, when it was directed HER way.

        But she never monitored the low crowd on behalf of her high crowd…….anything went, on her comments page……..so the high crowd left.

        Now all she has IS that low crowd Myiq showed you .

        Her own choices made that happen.

        Is she a feminist on behalf of her fellow feminists who defended her? No.

        She DID lose all feminist credibility last year.

  15. I want to apologize for semi-defending digby the other day. Her craven cowardice was understandable considering Obot thuggery, but she loses my sympathy when she has the gall to get up from cowering in the corner to try and dictate what feminism is. All she’s doing is throwing a human sacrifice to her disgusting commenters to keep them off her. Quick, digs, they’re rumbling and pawing, better come up with someone else to throw to them before they start in on you.

    • YEP. For Digby, Palin is just more red meat for her low crowd commenters.

      Not a drop of feminism in that motivation.

    • I really try not to judge women for not being feminist enough, or courageous enough in attacking sexism, considering how viciously you can get hit for that. But this is a little much, really. Digby has been hit with the ugly misogyny stick, and now she’s throwing Sarah Palin to the wolves to appease them? That’s a little too craven to ignore.

  16. Progressive bloggers and late-night comedians have been criticizing and making fun of black conservatives like Alan Keyes, Clarence Thomas, J.C. Watts and Michael Steele for years without resorting to racist tropes and epithets.

    We can and should defend them from racist attacks without endorsing their views.

    Why can’t we do that for conservative women?

  17. And now, please MABlue, will you deal with the comments that take up much of the above post? It was comments and commenters like that that drove us off the Cheeto blogs. I for one will never forget what that felt like–the horror of realizing that nothing, nothing had changed in people’s attitudes toward women, despite the progress we appear to have made on some fronts.

    Because of what happened last year, I had to face up to the reality that I will never see a woman president and I will never see equal rights for women in my lifetime. That shock has changed my entire attitude toward politics. Clearly you didn’t experience as great a shock during the events of that past years as some of us did. I’m glad for you, because for me it has been very painful to deal with.

  18. Well, I’ve had quite enough of the liberal “feminist elite.”

    • The liberal feminist elite appear to have gone underground, I haven’t heard anything from them, never mind enough. :)

  19. Going by the post and the comments about Palin in the Pumasphere and even here, you can’t come to any conclusion other than she’s off a saint, brilliant, perfect and must be off limits.

    Strawman much?

    Can you show me where we defended Palin from valid criticism?

    Here at TC – not somewhere else.

    Yesterday afrocity was getting mad at me because I said we were defending but not supporting Palin.

  20. MABlue,

    From your comment above:

    “Going by the post and the comments about Palin in the Pumasphere and even here, you can’t come to any conclusion other than she’s off a saint, brilliant, perfect and must be off limits.”

    I’m not sure what you mean by “the Pumasphere.” Please cite examples. I read Cinie and Murphy, but I’m not familiar with other “puma” blogs.

    However, based on the comments I read here at TC, I do come to a different conclusion, and it’s based on the may arguments I have given you (and which you seem to be ignoring).

    Once again, I challenge you to make your desired substantive criticisms of Palin, back up with evidence. Also explain why she is relevant to the national conversation.

    I look forward to reading what you have to say, hopefully in a front page post.

    As long as you continue to ignore the valid arguments that I and other commenters have given you for why Palin should be defended against misogynistic attacks, we’ll just be talking past each other.

    • And I have no idea why you assume that I agree with myiq (about what?). I often disagree with myiq. Nevertheless I like and respect him and consider him a friend. I feel the same way about you, MABlue, and I don’t have to agree with you on everything to feel that way.

      • It’s just about this Palin post.

        I think overall you and I are more in agreement. I was just trying to make a point that on this you as a woman agree with MyIQ who is a many while I am in agreement with Digby.

        I was just trying to respond to “Your confusion over this may be because you aren’t a woman.” and nothing more.

        • You need to be more specific about what you agree with Digby on. And the fact that you won’t deal with the comments on Digby’s post is troubling to me.

          I do believe that women can relate to what Palin is going through better than any man. I’m sorry if that is hurtful to you, but it’s true. Just as it would be hard for me to completely understand what it is like to be black in our culture, men simply can’t fully understand what the female experience is like.

    • I don’t ignore misogynistic attacks and never have. Never ever.
      I have defended Palin many times and will continue to do so.

      On this particular thread, I have problems with the way Digby has been treated. You can check some of the comments about her.

      I think you don’t read my comments entireky because I always making a point to reiterate what I disagree with, especially when I’m swimming upstream. I don’t want to be lumped in with people I disagree with in the first place.
      I’m just trying to put things in perspective but I doesn’t mean I agree with the demeaning attitude women get.

      I think I’ll go through some Palin-related thread here and show you what I come up with. Believe me I’m not talking out of thin air, and I have intended for a long time to ignore this altogether because I’m almost alone in this.

      There are many many women who disagree with Palin on policies and who are opposed to the fact that she’s being hailed as a feminist hero.Do they have a point?

      • I have read every single word of your comments. Do you read mine? You haven’t addressed a single one of my points. I have copied and pasted from your comments and responded to what you said.

        I never said you ignored misogynistic attacks. I said you ignored the perfectly valid arguments that I and others have made as to why this Sarah Palin issue keeps coming up. Because she is for some reason the latest punching bag for the media and the prog blogs. I can’t help that.

        I am not responsible for things other people write. If you want to post examples of people calling Palin a saint, go ahead. I don’t agree with that, and that isn’t what myiq said. I thought we were discussing this post.

        Once again, please explain why what Digby said about Palin not caring about rape victims is a valid point.

      • If they object to it so much, I’d suggest they either try to outdo her in feminist advocacy themselves (which shouldn’t be so damn hard if she’s as awful as they say) or find other women who are better feminist heroes and promote their genuine legitimacy.

        But trying to play Feminist Admiration Police while happily tolerating a Yahoo Amen Corner who talk about a$$ hugging skirts doesn’t lend a great aura of sincerity to her project, nor does finding fault with the only person speaking out on this while being chicken—- when confronted with untold amounts of Obot crap. Honestly, digby confronting Palin over defending herself and others from this crap is like Kazan naming names and then defending himself by making On the Waterfront. Show some courage yourself before slamming
        someone else’s, she’s not responsible for your guilty conscience.

        • F.A.P.

          Feminist Admiration Police.

          I like it.

          I am sick and tired of being told what to think and what to say. I’m done with taking orders from anyone!

          I think what I think, and I say what I think. I don’t care what the FAP thinks.

          • Trust me: Digby’s Village is not a nice place to be. Who voted for her to be part of the FAP?

            She runs with big boy blogs. You know, other “A-listers.” YUK

        • WORD.

      • I don’t agree that Palin is being “hailed as a feminist hero.” It’s as simple as that. Your entire premise is foreign to me.

        • I find Sarah Palin an admirable feminist figure. I disagree with her on choice, and on fiscal policies, and on environmental issues, and on foreign policy issues, and on an awful lot of things. But as a strong women who I believe does an awful lot of good for women and families, and as a politician with integrity who does what is constitutional and supportable rather than what jibes with her personal religion, I respect the hell out of her. Most of the Palin in anti-woman stuff we’ve heard has been totally manufactured. I respect her courage and tenacity in standing up for herself.

      • On this particular thread, I have problems with the way Digby has been treated. You can check some of the comments about her.

        Can you be more specific?

        I don’t see where anyone called Digby a c*nt, whore, bitch or slut.

        Those would be sexist and misogynistic comments.

        But if someone called her a cowardly asshat you could disagree with that characterization but it’s just blogging.

        • She called herself chickenshit….

          • Rightfully so.

            She succumbed to peer pressure and regretted it after all. Many people don’t do that, at least not publicly.

            It’s really great to pound on that.

          • Did she succumb to peer pressure or was she worried about losing advertising revenue if she took unpopular stands and she lost readership?

          • I never knew she regretted it. Where did she say that?

          • Most people who regret taking a dive because it’s easier and safer to do so don’t then feel the need to then question the motives of the ones who do stand up and don’t take a dive. And they especially don’t feel the need to subject the non-divers to the same group of hostile morons they themselves sought to evade by taking the dive in the first place

      • mablue2, I agree 100% of everything you wrote. Palin should be protected,coddled,loved, and defended, but Hillary asked for it because of the way she looks and acts like a man. Hillary is tough, because what do you expect from a women who married bill and hangs around bagela,carville, and ickes. Those guys are cut thorat so of course Hillary has to be tough.

        Hillbuzz aka Palinbuzz, Hillary’s village aka Palin’s village, no quarter, puma pac all demand we support palin. Name one palin supporter who defended Hillary.

        Daliy Kos,DU,Crooks and Liar, and Balloon Juice are the only blogs to mention the same was done to Chelsea and defend her. Remember how everyone got mad at Contessa Brewer for cutting ziegler’s mic,the same guy who promted the republican movie about Hillary called C**T. But in a Crooks and Liar’s post she puts the republican guy in his place when he said it never happened to Chelsea. The blogs metioned above have not metioned the same thing happened to Chelsea or Hillary once.

        Pip, I saw the tape where palin told Hillary to stop whining. Glen Beck played it on his show all the time. He said Palin called out the always viictim Hillary what a real women is.

        • I smell troll

        • You must be new here.

          The Crooks and Liars post I saw talked about what McCain said about Chelsea, but conveniently ignored what David Shuster said. Did you see that tape?

          If you are seriously making the argument that no one here has complained about the misogynistic treatment of Hillary, you must either be insane or stupid.

          • Crooks and Liar’s post shows that the repulicans are lying when they say the never did it to Chelsea.

            I never said you guys never defended hillary I said why should I have to support palin,when her supporters never defened hillary. To me it is a two way street.

            Troll, sure call me whatever you want. I have heard it all from obots.

          • You are conflating “support Sarah Palin” with “condemn sexism”

            Just because the other side has no principles doesn’t mean we don’t.

            We’re supposed to be better than them.

          • Since when is it news that Republicans lie? The stunning news for me this year was that Democrats are as bad or worse than Republicans. When the prog blogs start telling the truth about what they did to Hillary, get back to me.

          • You don’t have to support anyone, but what do you want us to do, make/ignore/condone sexist attacks on Republican women as payback for their CDS? No thanks,

        • Oh no!

          Hillbuzz aka Palinbuzz, Hillary’s village aka Palin’s village, no quarter, puma pac all demand we support palin. Name one palin supporter who defended Hillary.

          Daliy Kos,DU,Crooks and Liar, and Balloon Juice are the only blogs to mention the same was done to Chelsea and defend her.

          If all these people are on my team, I’m leaving that sport.

          Excuse me while I go vomit.

          • When you’re done with the bucket pass it over to me.

            John Cole is a hardcore Hillary hater from way back. The only reason the Baloney Juicers brought up Chelsea was to justify their support for misogyny.

            They weren’t defending her when Shuster said Hillary was pimping her out.

          • It’s OK, MABlue. We love you anyway.

          • Sorry, it makes me vomit too. But I am sick of revisionist history when it comes to the Clintons and what they went thru when bill was president, primaries, and now. Some pro-hillary blogs are repeating that it never happened to Chelsea straight from the republicans talking points.

          • Bullshit – you are definitely a troll.

            “Pure Life” will now be playing a game called “This Way To The Egress”

          • Yah there are Republicans saying that over at Violet’s (she got linked by Instapundit). They’re trying to make it “attacking conservative women is fair game!” instead of “attacking all women is fair game.”

          • Both McCain’s and Shuster’s comments about Chelsea are well documented.

            Both men apologized, with McCain demonstrating far more sincerity than Shuster. KO apologized on behalf of MSNBC.

            No one who is Pro-Hillary would deny those comments were made.

            A PUMA-hating blogstalker would spread that lie to make PUMA look like it was a GOP ratfuck operation which is absolutely untrue.

        • /Pip, I saw the tape where palin told Hillary to stop whining. Glen Beck played it on his show all the time. He said Palin called out the always viictim Hillary what a real women is./

          Even though you’re being semi-incoherent here, I think, if I’m reading you correctly, you’re confusing what Glenn Beck said Palin said with what she actually said. Here’s the actual viideo for you to watch again, and even though Palin does use the word “whine”–always prefaced by “perceived”–she’s actually very respectful towards Hillary, and merely chiding Hillary’s comments on tactical grounds, to wit, that pointing out the sexism or double standards applied towards one’s candidacy doesn’t improve matters for a female candidate.

          <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9Y8FKAsxmk"<Watch it for yourself.

          I think it’s also safe to say that Palin developed even more sympathy for Hillary after being placed in the national spotlight herself and got a dose of what Hillary went up against.

        • “Daliy Kos,DU,Crooks and Liar, and Balloon Juice are the only blogs to mention the same was done to Chelsea and defend her. ”

          This is patently false. The activist left only pimps out their weak-ass “but the right did it to Hillary/Chelsea!” whenever it suits their partisan purposes, conveniently omitting that they themselves adopted the right-wing’s canards about all things Hillary, Chelsea, and Clinton. Oh, except the right’s”Chelsea is ugly” joke became the left’s “Chelsea is attractive, therefore her parents must be whoring her out.”

          Both the far right and the far left have misogyny on their hands.

      • I’m sorry, mablue.

        Digby didn’t care about how her feminist supporters were treated in her own comments.

        She let every single post with the words “c*nt,” “dried up va-jay-jay”, ad nauseum, stay on her comment board, with nary a warning or a banning

        All the “feminists” left her blog.

        How Digby is being treated on THIS blog is alot more honest than anything you’d see on her own.

        Due respect.

      • “There are many many women who disagree with Palin on policies and who are opposed to the fact that she’s being hailed as a feminist hero.Do they have a point?”

        No. They don’t. A woman is allowed to fight for equality and against sexism and gender discrimination in her own way.

        Is Michael Steele not a black man because he is the chairman of the RNC?

        Honestly, I think their discomfort comes from the fact that right now Palin is doing more for the advancement of women than the so-called liberals are. The folks who want to revoke Palin’s feminist license should stop whining about Sarah and start complaining about the current administration’s stance on women’s issues. In other words, they need to start acting like feminists themselves.

        • If the “real” feminists were screaming bloody murder then Palin wouldn’t have to speak up, would she?

          • Exactly.

            And the saddest part is when the so-called “real” feminists join in the Palin trashing.

            Someone with Photoshop skills should create a “This is what a feminist looks like” for Palin. That would really make some heads explode.

          • Calling Stateofdisbelief

        • *cheers* exactly. And I haven’t forgotten that people who Supposedly agree with Hillary Clinton were opposed to her being considered a feminist hero. Did they have a point? How about no.

          • (Meaning Obots who are closer to her on policy but trashed the hell out of her anyway)

  21. “Going by the post and the comments about Palin in the Pumasphere and even here, you can’t come to any conclusion other than she’s off a saint, brilliant, perfect and must be off limits.”

    Oh really now? You can’t come to any other conclusion, eh? Okay, so now you’ve repeated yoursslf. So why don’t you prove your point instead of trying to perpetuate a false meme?

    I’ll wait……

  22. I’m still waiting to hear MABlue’s criticisms of Palin and her policies and/or his evidence for believing she has done nothing to defend rape victims, as Digby said.

    • I don’t know what Palin has done for rape victims, I just have to wonder, is it only okay to object to rape jokes if you’ve got concrete advocacy on behalf of rape victims under your belt? That would seem to be fairly convenient for those who MAKE rape jokes.

      • I don’t know either. All I know is that lies were published about her requiring rape victims to pay for rape kits. I don’t even know what Palin’s policies are other than that she is conservative. I don’t see the relevance of her policies to this discussion. I think that is just a red herring to excuse the sexist attacks on her. JMHO.

      • Just the notion that there can be “rape jokes” is outrageous!

        • I’m tired of out and out hatred being passed off as either a religion or comedy. Folks need to own up to what it is. Doing it for laughs or somebody’s invisible friend doesn’t make it right. It just makes it tacky and reprehensible!

        • yes, ITA

        • I dunno, the joke that Lorena Bobbit played on her rapist was pretty funny if you ask me.

    • I think I’ll take you on that.

      It’s 11.30 pm here so it’s not going to be today.

      So you just want her policies I disagree with and all the over the top “Palin-is-the-greatest-and-should-be-off-limits” here on TC?

      • Why should that be off-limits? We all have to put our ideas out there and deal with the flack. I wrote a post that was friendly to Michelle Obama and survived with a few bruises.

    • By the way I don’t agree with every line in Digby’s post. I think overall she makes valid points and her views on Palin doesn’t deserve the trashing she took here.

      I was as much shocked about the misogyny and the sexism in the media as you where and I’m still under the shock of what I saw. Many people I used to like do no longer exist for me because I’m still holding the “primary’s grudge”.

      Btw Plain is a Rightwinger and you are seriously challenging me to come up with policies I disagree with her on?

      • What trashing? Keep in mind that Digby has a history and good or bad that is part of the evaluation we make.

        As for Palin, do you actually know what her policies are or are you just assuming because she is labeled a conservative Republican that you disagree with her?

        She IS pro-life but she hasn’t tried to force that view into law in her state.

        • That’s my favorite thing about her. IMO, she can believe whatever the hell she wants about abortion or gay-marriage so long as she isn’t trying to force those views on anyone else. And if you look at her record, she isn’t.

      • You’re completely missing my point. To me her policies are irrelevant to this situation. She wasn’t attacked on policies. Digby threw out a few accusations with no backup.

        I challenged you to show me why Palin’s policies are relevant to whether she should be defended against sexist attacks.

        If you think her policies are important and are relevant on a national level I’ll listen to what you have to say. I don’t plan on supporting her for national office myself.

        • I challenged you to show me why Palin’s policies are relevant to whether she should be defended against sexist attacks.

          There not and I never said they were. Of course she should be defended as every woman should. I haven’t said anything to the contrary.

          What she articulated as policies during the campaign was bad enough, even if she was only nr 2 on the ticket.
          If we are unhappy about Obama’s policies on the national level, how much are we going to like Palin’s?

          PS: No, I don’t support Obama’s policies and I don’t think we should just accept them because the other side is worse.

          • PS: No, I don’t support Obama’s policies and I don’t think we should just accept them because the other side is worse.

            The sad thing is that at this point, I’m not even sure the other side would have been worse. Would a McCain/Palin administration really have been worse on the bank bailout? On the mortgage default crisis? On GLBT issues? On the separation of church and state? On domestic surveillance? On Af-Pak? On protecting the environment? In a few instances, the answer may be yes, but would people on the left be so utterly divided and demoralized as they are today, seemingly incapable of mustering any opposition to bad policy-making? I voted third-party in the last election, afforded that luxury by living in New York where my vote didn’t matter. But really, at this point, the whole “the other side is worse” argument holds zero weight with me. We’re thoroughly screwed by what went down in 2008. We’re screwed in 2012. We’re screwed for a long time to come. We’re screwed, screwed, screwed.

          • Sorry about the double post.

  23. [...] of rewarding a guy for not competing by gifting him his opponent’s delegates, we were castigated, belittled, abused, threatened, demeaned and ridiculed.  When we refuted the ridiculous [...]

  24. Digby is mistaken. Were it my daughter, I would not only be on television condeming Letterman but use any legal vehicle available to sue. I guess you have to be a parent to understand how painful and outrageous it is to have your children attacked.

    Digby demostrates that she goes along with the cultural divide in re women and abuse. Anything goes. ” What’s wrong with rape? She sked for it. She is a slut so is her 14 year old daughter.” She has cut off the comments when they spoke that way about her…why not defend another woman?

    I only can hope that conservative women are outraged at this treatment and that conservative men find it abhorent to have children described this way on a national television show. Forget the outrage about women. In the United States of America, they have been beaten up and buried.

    • To be fair, Digby did say the attacks were unaccepable. She should have left it at that, but she is a coward and had to add some read meat for the progs. And we do have evidence in her own words now that she is a coward.

      • Well said. I think Digby is smarter than her visitors to know that the attacks were unacceptable. But if she had left it at that, she would’ve been attacked for being a PUMA and Palin sympathizer. So she had to end her post with a jab at Palin for complaining too much. She caters to the Keith Olbermann crowd who just ate it up and proceeded to call Palin a slut, etc. thereby justifying Letterman’s point of view. The cycle is sickening.

        Madeline, you’re absolutely right. I’m not a mother but I know my mother would’ve brought out the knives on anyone who dared to call me names or insinuate that I was a slut when I was a teenager. I oftentimes wish I had a platform to respond to people I find to be rude, unfair, r@cist, or sexist. More power to anyone who has a platform and uses it to respond to asshats like Letterman.

  25. thanks, myiq, for brilliantly stating the obvious once again. this truly is about class warfare and it cuts deeply thru the so-called “left”. over and over throughout my life I have run into people who identify as liberal/leftists… as long as their sacred cows remain undisturbed. they are CLUELESS and unconscious about the pervasiveness and divisiveness of classist ideology and hate, not to mention WHO benefits from it. thanks again for showing light into the dark tunnel of the so called left blogosphere.

  26. Ward Connerly is black.

    Back in the 90’s he led the fight against Affirmative Action.

    Does that make it okay to discriminate against him based on his race?

    TWO WRONGS DON’T MAKE A RIGHT

  27. Pure Life,

    Provide links to Hillary supporting blogs that are saying Chelsea was never attacked. Provide them now, please.

  28. Here is the “whine” video:

    • I let this thru to demonstrate Failbot dishonesty.

      Provide links to Hillary supporting blogs that are saying Chelsea was never attacked.

      That Hillbuzz post says NOTHING about Chelsea Clinton.

  29. If you are acting according to your principles then you condemn sexism and misogyny whenever and wherever you find it.

    You condemn it when it is used against people you like and support, you condemn it when it is used against people you dislike and oppose, and you condemn it when it is used against people who don’t deserve to be defended.

    And you condemn it when it is used by your friends

    • Thank you.

      And if you really WANT the progressive movement to be perceived by Independents like me as an improvement, you don’t BECOME what Democrats, supposedly, always despised in personal attacks unworthy of issues-discussion.

      And you don’t condone the trash talk just because it is targeted to the other side.

      And you LOSE your so-called “feminist ” creds if you’re lazy or too scared to monitor the trash talk on your own blog, or to set any standards.

      Enough, already. We’ve all moved on from the abusers, and found better places to discuss.

      Digby can HAVE her Village. Live long and prosper, Digby.

      But you ain’t special, or unique, or principled.

      You’re just like the THEM you used to despise.

  30. Have you heard? Sarah Palin owes the American people, David Letterman, her children and the GOP an apology! She has single-handedly stoked the right-wing fires of hatred. No…really. Stephen Crockett says so.

    • THIS crap, along with Digby’s red meat and disgusting commenters, is why I am now an Independent, and will be, until the day I die.

      I knew I’d get that crap at markos and arianna, but never dreamed I’d get it at a strong , intelligent WOMAN’s site.

      Poor Somerby. Watching what he knows could be decent, become trash.

      • Don’t go to Pandagon either.

        • I left Shakesville when some of the commenters stopped just barely short of rejoicing at the death of Jack Kemp, for a conservative Republican, was not a bad fellow.

          • WHO for a conservative R, etc. Pardon me. :mrgreen:

          • They’re the people who watched the Swift Boaters and Brooks Bros rioters with deep feelings on envy and admiration. Lord of the damn Flies.

        • Don’t even get me STARTED on Pandagon. Yeesh.

      • I will always be a liberal but until we can get rid of the hacks at MSNBC whose misogynistic, Hillary-hating anchors control the left-wing soapbox and vote in another Democratic administration, I consider myself an Independent. I definitely will not vote for Obama in 2012. I might have to just sit out presidential elections for a very, very long time.

        • I’ll be sitting with ya. If McKinney is on the Green ticket again, I’ll have someone to vote for but, then again, voting third party is still pretty much sitting it out.

    • Why am I not surprised? They’lll pry our rape jokes and woman hating from us? This are the “left” values we will stand by forever!

  31. To the fauxgressives, what matters is that for the first time in their beta-male lives, they feel like alphas, and they’ll throw screeching hissy fits at anyone who harshes their faux-alpha buzz.

    Meanwhile, the real alphas–Brand Obama’s bankrollers–laugh all the way to the bailed-out banks that they own.

    • Truer words were never spoken.

    • Bull’s eye!

    • 2008 reeeeallly opened my eyes. I thought, foolishly, that progressives represented a higher sort of USAmerican.

      Haruhi-sama, was I ever wrong. :(

      • I thought that too but 5 minutes in the blogosphere destroyed my illusions, plus scared the hell out of me. :)

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