Don’t worry guys, its natural to objectify women.

This is NOT an object.

This is NOT an object.

I am no scientist, but this kind of thing always makes me just a little bit uncomfortable. It’s as if they’re trying to find an excuse for bad behavior.

It may seem obvious that men perceive women in sexy bathing suits as objects, but now there’s science to back it up.

New research shows that, in men, the brain areas associated with handling tools and the intention to perform actions light up when viewing images of women in bikinis.

See, the scientists say that this is natural, and somehow a consequence of evolution, and men needing to pass on their seed, or some BS like that…

Although consistent with conventional wisdom, the way that men may depersonalize sexual images of women is not entirely something they control. In fact, it’s a byproduct of human evolution, experts say. The first male humans had an incentive to seek fertile women as the means of spreading their genes.

I guess it couldn’t possibly be caused by living in a society that teaches men that women are nothing but “tools” to be used for their service or their sexual pleasure.  Nope, just the way evolution built them.  I’m curious though, didn’t women have those same incentives to find fertile men to spread their genes?  I mean the tone of this article just reinforces the (in my opinion) learned tendency to see women as passive objects while men are the ones doing the action.  But not only are men not responsible for their actions, they don’t even know that they’re doing them.

“They’re not fully conscious responses, and so people don’t know the extent to which they’re being influenced,” Fiske said. “It’s important to recognize the effects.”

Like I said, I’m not a scientist, but I call bullshit.  Grown men are not incapable of controlling their “primal urges” when they see a pretty woman.  Give me a break..

I guess women must have the same kind of glazed over drooling reaction to a hot man too, right?

This study looked specifically at men, and did not test women’s responses to similar images.

Oops, my mistake.  I guess they just don’t need that data to make any kind of judgment about their results.  They have all the proof they need from the “real world” anyway:

The findings are consistent with previous work in the field, and resonate, for example, with the abundance of female strip clubs in comparison to male strip clubs…

I guess they’re talking about straight male strip clubs, because I could probably find them a 1:1 ratio for gay strip clubs in any major US city…but then again, in these brainy scientific “women are from venus, men are from mars” type studies they just pretend that gay people don’t exist.  And perhaps its all that socialization that women are put through to repress any sexual urges they might have that might explain the lack of straight male strip clubs…just sayin’.  

But don’t worry girls, because most guys aren’t evil, they just succumb to “benevolent sexism”…..{{ducks to miss the shrapnel of exploding heads}}

The participants, 21 heterosexual male undergraduates at Princeton, took questionnaires to determine whether they harbor “benevolent” sexism, which includes the belief that a woman’s place is in the home, or hostile sexism, a more adversarial viewpoint which includes the belief that women attempt to dominate men.

So I guess you should be happy that he thinks that you should exist to serve his every need instead of harboring resentment about your attempts to make him look bad. —just a side thought, I wonder if they measured the penis length of the guys in this study…wonder what that might show…oh well, I’ll leave it up to the professionals.

And although he thinks of you in the same way as he thinks of a drug addict or a homeless person, there’s one big difference:

Previous research found that people tend to similarly dehumanize those who are homeless or drug addicts, although the phenomenon in this case is somewhat different, Fiske said. People have reactions of avoidance toward the homeless and drug addicts, and the opposite for scantily clad women.

You lucky girl, you.

But the most important thing they learned in this study is that women should further self-censor and be aware that it is their fault when men act inappropriately, because of course, they can’t help themselves.

Women should be aware of how they are perceived when wearing provocative clothing…

 ”Many men make foolish choices because of sexual attraction,” he said.

“The suggestion might be that there’s some hard-wiring there that can interfere with the average man’s ability to interact on deeper levels with really hot looking stranger women in bikinis,” he said.

Yeah, it’s called being a sexist jerk. 

Crossposted at Electric Blues

260 Responses

  1. The guy in your picture may not be an object, gary, but this guy certainly is:

    http://www.fandango.com/moviephotos/starsinswimwear_danielcraig,emcasinoroyaleem_1_19

    Yowza — Ursula Andrews still holds the title of “sexiest walk out of the ocean in a bond film” but Daniel Craig came thisclose to toping her. :-)

  2. angie, I almost used the daniel craig photo, but my male brain saw this one as a hotter object :)

  3. Ok. So we can find excuses for all kinds of human behavior. Is racism in the DNA of human beings as well? Let’s be sensitive to why people are sexist and racist. They can’t help it.

  4. I am a scientist. A Ph.D.-type, university, the whole-nine-yards kind of scientist. And this is more than bullshit. Bullshit can mean nonsense, and the real thing can be useful as fertilizer.

    This is toxic waste.

  5. New research shows that, in men, the brain areas associated with handling tools and the intention to perform actions light up when viewing images of women in bikinis.

    So when guys handle their tools or see women in bikinis their brains react the same?

  6. garychapelhill, on February 19th, 2009 at 2:52 pm Said:

    angie, I almost used the daniel craig photo, but my male brain saw this one as a hotter object

    Amen my gay brother! This one is the better choice!

  7. These studies are BS. If they wanted to do a real study, they would have tested women too. Wouldn’t it blow the whole theory, if women had the same reaction? They didn’t even look for it.

    I am very dubious about studies where they point to the brain “lighting up” in certain areas and drawing inferences from that. I am not a scientist, but it seems kindof simplistic. I remember another study that came out claiming that men didn’t like to read maps because of the way their brains are wired. They used the “lighting up” analogy on that one too, and used their study to explain why men don’t like to stop and ask directions.

    What is the scientific term for one finding what one believed to be there all the time?

  8. What is the scientific term for one finding what one believed to be there all the time?

    Bingo?

  9. So now there is proof that women are stronger then men?
    We have better impulse control? We can exercise good judgment under all conditions? We have the ability to look but not touch?
    So why the hell are we still fighting for ERA?

    (snark)

    WOMEN INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS,EQUALISTS AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  10. And, let me guess: the new stimulus bill provides money for more BS studies like this one.?

    Thanks for pointing it out, Gary.

  11. garychapelhill, on February 19th, 2009 at 2:52 pm Said:

    angie, I almost used the daniel craig photo, but my male brain saw this one as a hotter object

    Amen my gay brother! This one is the better choice!

    Ummm… yeah…. is it okay that I’m slightly weirded out by this?

    As for the study, it doesn’t strike me as that odd, though I think it does lean a bit into the whole ‘I can’t help myself’ narrative. Retailers know this and get pretty girls to selling ugly ties to clueless guys in clothing stores all the time.

    But I must admit there have been some times when I have been thoroughly distracted by the attractiveness of a woman, so much so that I find it hard to focus on what she’s saying.

  12. Wow, NewsFlash! Young straight guys light up when they see a hottie in a bikini!

    Amazing! How much grant money was used for that? And What Government Org did the funding? I want a piece of it. I want to prove that Fire is hot. I only need a few million to run the tests…….

  13. the commenter wears axe.

  14. Bull shit is right and you probably funded it with your tax dollars.

  15. So I guess “benevolent” racism is also ok. I mean, weren’t all those slaves happy on the plantation? As long as they were being fed and clothed it should be alright.

    Judas Freaking Priest.

  16. Another excuse to dismiss accountability for everything we do. Just not our fault! Instead of “the devil made me do it”, we can just point to a study that exonerates impulse behavior to a big, fat yawn.

    Women are not accountable for their actions because of the “patriarchy” leading them down the garden path. And men, well they just can’t help it.

    We’ve just settled the argument, no one is responsible, all things are equal. Do your thing!

  17. Pat, that’s what Jesus is for. He takes all the sins away.

  18. In moderation, again….

  19. What’d I say???

  20. There’s something to this science, actually. Men’s brains have something in it that actually changes perception. It’s a kind of filter that is similar to Playboy. The woman becomes increasingly more attractive, and flaws disappear apparently.

    What I think would be interesting is to discover if this is emotional more than visual. My theory is: Yes.

    In other words, a woman who makes a man feel good about himself becomes more attractive. All of a sudden, her complexion is prettier. :)

    Anyway, fun research stuff, eh?

    My son LOVE this approach to sexuality, btw. He is a very responsible, loving man today. But he does love the idea that he’s “different” and, therefore, not so entangled in morality about this issue.

    Who cares? He’s actually quite responsible in that arena, so I figure……let him think he’s different.

    I had a friend once who really could be called, “horsefaced.” Yet she had such a good spirit and heart, that everyone who met her found her more beautiful each time they had contact.

    She was a perfect example of the ideal: Beauty comes from within.

    Whether you were male or female, it didn’t matter. She just really grew pretty as one got to know her.

    I suspect that’s something science just can’t measure and won’t be able to do so in my lifetime.

  21. What Pat said. Lord this nutty and sexist. Men are just slobbering impulses knuckle-dragging their way to destruction because the double-helix imprisoned them. Crap.

  22. garychapelhill, on February 19th, 2009 at 2:52 pm Said:

    angie, I almost used the daniel craig photo, but my male brain saw this one as a hotter object

    LOL!! Honest to God, as a woman, that scene with Craig coming out of the water in that blue mankini in Casino Royale was the first time I experienced what men must feel like when they see a woman in a bikini. I was breathless –mouth, literally, agape. I don’t even like blondes! I thought he was a terrible choice for Bond — that is, until I saw that scene. Now, he is second only to Sean Connery.

  23. AnninCA, I don’t understand what you are saying.

    It’s a kind of filter that is similar to Playboy

    ?

  24. You know, if railing against male sexism is going to result in more beefcake on this blog, I’m all in favor of it.

  25. Down, angie, down girl!

  26. The woman becomes increasingly more attractive, and flaws disappear apparently.

    Especially if it is 2am and last call has been announced. Sure.

  27. oh my goodness… this place is turning quickly from PG-13 to R to NC-17 and its only midafternoon!!

  28. Pat J — I’ll try — but now that I have that imagine in my head of Craig in that mankini I cannot stop thinking about it!! LOL

    I think a lot of it is just the shock that the lead male was the one treated so obviously as the “sex object.”

  29. Okay, say I buy all this. There’s one thing they left out, imo. Women may be drawn to hot men and want to serve and service them, but, genetically, we only need one per pride. We would also, genetically speaking, want to change that one seasonally, to ensure the quality of the gene pool, thus, the “fight to the death for the right to mate” ritual. When not “in heat” we’re perfectly capable of handling our sexual needs amongst ourselves. We’re also capable of farming and hunting, so while one sexy, smart, strong man with a moose might be the rage this year, he’s have to off an interloper and bring in another couple of big animals on a regular basis to earn his keep. How’s that for “science?”

  30. angienc2:

    I used to find Sean Connery attractive also, until a number of years ago when he was being interviewed by Barbara Walters. I don’t remember the question, exactly but he answered in the vein that whatever he had done was alright because he never hit a woman with a closed fist. (Or only hit them with an open hand). Something to that effect.

    Needless to say, he moved off my dream list.

  31. Cinie, you are getting to close our little “secret”.

    Back off!

  32. too close to our little secret

  33. And there is no accounting for taste. I found Ed Rendell to be sexy. Overweight and over 60.

  34. Has Gary banned me from his posts? I can’t see any of my comments…..

  35. This is not only irresponsible and biased but also bad science. Any study like this that does not control for the effects of socialization and that does not address the whole nature/nurture controversy is not worth the paper it’s written on.

    What a depressing pile of bullshit — and more proof (as if we needed it) that the new “progressive” movement is actually a return to reactionary conservatism.

  36. CINIE
    Uppity Women put up your post about ra—-sm.
    Good Going//// The more people who see and read the more people think.

    As far as good looking males Magnum was not half bad.
    Males who have a sense of humor about themselves and the world are always sexy

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS,EQUALISTS AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  37. who uses the phrase “benevolent sexism” anyway?

    I’ve never heard that before reading this.

    Sounds like newspeak.

  38. Hey, helenk, I guess that officially makes me a rock star!
    So…anybody wanna do me?

  39. Mawm, good point. Benevolence is in the eye of the researcher in this case.

  40. Somebody please throw a bucket of cold water over Cinie and angie?

  41. Gary — I am so glad to be reading you here again. Your voice has been sorely missed. This is a great post, but I have to agree with Angie about Daniel Craig. :-)

    Another thing that pisses off about this study is that the researcher quoted is a woman. I bet you anything she is an Obama supporter, and the subjects were a bunch of Favreau wannabees.

  42. Now, mow, Pat, nobody hauled out the ice buckets for you and Eddie, did they? Fair is fair.

  43. How can you say something is primal and the result of evolution in the same sentence? Frankly, if I were a thinking evolved male I’d be offended by the study. Basically it is saying men are the equivalent of a Pavlovian dog. If they see an attractive woman then they start to salivate and can’t think straight.

    I’m almost glad these putzes didn’t do the female half of the species.

    Here’s a news flash for the scientists…….there have been tons of studies that have shown there are advantages to the perception of being attractive, whether you are male or female.

    God save us all from scientists who have nothing better to do then come up with excuses for errant male behavior. Let’s hope they don’t use these losers to excuse poor behavior in court.

  44. Now, mow? I need therapy.

  45. jules, thanks, yeah, I didn’t mention that the researcher was a woman…I didn’t want to depress everyone TOO much. maybe I should add a poll between Craig and the guy above.

  46. Nope THAT is not an object. It IS a very attractive male though.

    If I were channeling the female lecher(not that different from the male lecher described in said article) in me I’d say I wouldn’t kick him out of bed. ;)

  47. I looked Susan Fiske up, and she is a social neurologist, whatever that is. Brain development is very dependent on experience, so drawing concusions from which parts of the brain light up during particular behaviors is interesting, but you can’t draw conclusions about whether the reactions is hard-wired or based on environment.

    Most likely the results suggest that college students at Princeton have grown up in a society that sees women as objects. They didn’t test enough subject to really draw any serious conclusions. Furthermore, just because a particular brain reaction is unconscious doesn’t mean the person can’t control their sexual behavior. Otherwise people would be having sex in public all the time.

    Also, without testing women as well as men and women who are attracted to the same sex, they have no basis for comparison.

    I think brain imaging studies are interesting, but you can’t draw broad conclusions from them. We are just at the very beginnings of this kind of research.

    Great post, Gary!

  48. Gary, I nominate Rafael Nadal fully clothed on the tennis court. I imagine he’s gorgeous off the court, but my experience of him is limited.

    http://www.rafael-nadal.us/pictures.html

  49. People are attracted to different qualities in other people.
    Some just think looks are important.
    Some just think humor is important.
    Some just think wealth and status are important.
    For my I always liked a man who liked and respected women as people first

    its like that song by Pavorati and Denver What is Love.
    Unless you talk to and study every person in the world you will never get a definite answer on what attracts one person to another.
    By the way that is one of my favorite songs

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS,EQUALISTS AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  50. Mawm,

    The scientific term for finding what you believed was there all along is “observer bias.”

  51. I like the guy Gary picked better too.

  52. Jules: “I bet you anything she is an Obama supporter, and the subjects were a bunch of Favreau wannabees.”

    Exactly!

  53. I love sheep. I’m a baaaa-d boy!

  54. But I still think that most women are monogamous by nature aside from how many partners she may have had. Most men are still imbued with the polygamous gene. The more the merrier.

  55. Actually I would guess the reason there is relatively few clubs featuring male strippers is because men are easy. If a woman gets in the mood it is not hard to find a guy who will come home and go along with her program. Women are not easy for the most part so men have a harder time finding sex partners when they want them especially if they are unattractive mates, and that is why the strip clubs which everyone knows are prostitution establishments. Women don’t have to pay because men are easy.

  56. Sexism is okay because men are just “wired” this way through evolution? Men have no impulse control because of their primal instincts? What good are these types of men that can’t control themselves. Shouldn’t they be weeded out through natural selection? I would say that these types of men should soon become extinct since they cannot adapt to their changing environment. These primal unevolved men should be on display at the museum of natural history since they are nothing more than relics of the past.

  57. Why do I think that Sn in Mn could not make out in a women’s prison with a fist full of pardons?

    Bummer troll but you could always take yourself in hand.

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE,AND EXPERIENCE, MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS, EQUALISTS AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  58. more pictures i like this one..but need more

  59. I would not be too depressed that the researcher is a woman. As with any profession the women who succeed in science are the ones who are the most skilled at kissing the hairy ass directly in front of them not the ones with the most innovative ideas. In fact you could bet the most innovative will not succeed.

  60. boomer: I checked fundrace out of idle curiosity and Fiske did, in fact, contribute to Obama’s campaign. (She donated to Hillary first, but much about half as much.)

  61. Pat Johnson

    I must be a freak of nature. I’m female and don’t believe I was wired to be monogamous. I’ve worked hard to remain monogamous because I would never want to hurt my husband by betraying his trust. Monogamy is definitely a conscious choice on my part.

  62. FL

    Exactly! Primal actually equals unevolved, not evolved.

  63. cwaltz: I don’t see you as a freak of nature. We all have been tempted at one time or another and many of us have even daydreamed. It is just that most women, and I may be generalizing here, don’t often act upon those impulses, especially if they have children, but men are more likely to given the chance.

    I am not saying I am correct, just saying.

  64. Mawm, on February 19th, 2009 at 3:17 pm Said:

    the commenter wears axe.

    Nah, he wears Brut or Old Spice. :-)

  65. Cinie at 3:35 – I like your science!

    FLVoter at 4:15 – hahahaha!

    Thanks for posting this, Gary – someone posted a link to this article over at Violet’s place and, after reading it, all I could do was snort and roll my eyes.

  66. I think there are larger consequences for women when engaging in sex. Like it or not we bear the burden(or enjoy the benefit)of carrying the next generation of our species. While a man can walk away from the responsibility of a sexual encounter that results in reproduction it isn’t as easy for us. We are obligated to make a choice(although if some had their say we wouldn’t even get that).

    Besides indiscriminate sex is mindless and mundane. It’s much harder and more couraguous to go further than scratching the surface and risking rejection.

  67. By the way gary this is a real thought provoking post. I’m enjoying the discussion so far.

  68. Foxyladi, check these 2 out:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/31378228@N03/

  69. boy did I have a senior moment.
    the song is Perhaps Love by John Denver and Placido Domingo. Since it is one of my favorites, you would think i would know the name and singers?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YnfCH7LNcM

    If ADAM lets this link work enjoy.

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE, MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS,EQUALISTS AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  70. I’m uncomfortable with the science mocking in this post. While this particular study could’ve been improved (test women and men, test subjects in other cultures, test a broader age range, etc), I hope we’re not suggesting that brain function isn’t important in explaining human perception. Understanding the source of an emotion, be it sexism, or racism, or violence, is not the same as condoning it. I’d like to see lots more studies of this type, along with more thoughtful interpretation of the results, so human societies can develop ways to compensate for our built-in biases.
    *****A

  71. What’s with the walking out of the ocean, like it’s some kind of primal soup. Daniel Craig, doesn’t do much for me. Hardly challenges Pierce Brosnin, in my book. And step away from Sean Connery. No, I’d rather watch Roger Federer play five sets anyday. For the tennis, that is. Sports lights up the pinball in my brain.

  72. Face it, there is a huge difference between men and women in how they approach sex.

  73. Ohhhh….dis is not good:

    The Dow’s finish below the Nov. 20 mark leaves the index its lowest level since Oct. 9, 2002.

    Worries about the economy and, on Thursday, the strength of the technology industry, weighed on stocks.

    The Dow is ending down 89.68, or 1.2 percent, at the 7,466 level.

  74. helenk: That is a lovely selection.

  75. Adrienne

    When you start calling something primal and then say its the result of evolution, I have to start questioning if you know what primal means. Furthermore “benevolent sexism” give me a break! There is absolutely no such thing. I don’ think that women who deal with men in the workplace on a daily basis would appreciate that the male half of the species is being “benevolent” when they wish she would “stay at home where she belongs.”

  76. Jules,

    That’s funny! Too bad we can’t get her to run some brain imaging studies directly on Obama and Favreau. Obama’s brain would probably light up at the sight of money.

  77. I think that the difference are conditioned though Pat. I think there are huge social consequences for women who engage in indiscriminate sex. The male half of the species, not so much. It doesn’t help when you have members of the scientific community basically making excuses for them.

  78. When I hear “benevolent” a picture of a man patting me on the head (or @ss) comes to mind.

  79. Back to my genetic theory. I don’t think women, nor society, benefits from monogamy. The more men with which she mates, the more diverse the gene pool. Eve-olution might be much better served with a human pride/herd mentality, butt, it would make the vast majority of men expendable, and does nothing to help assure that every man gets a woman at any point in his life. Scientifically speaking, of course. Monogamy, in my opinion, is a male construct, like patriarchy, to protect and reward themselves, and to give themselves relevance. (slinking off quietly now)

  80. Adrienne,

    Showing what parts of the brain react in certain situations cannot reveal the source of an emotion or the cause of anything at all. In the first place, everyone’s brain is different, and the brain is very plastic and adapts according to experience. I’m sure people who did this study would admit as much. Studies like this are usually misinterpreted and sensationalized in the media. BTW, I’m a psychologist.

  81. Cinie: No, no I agree with your premise. Women should enjoy the same benefits of sex as any male. As long as it does not lead to unplanned pregnancy which put a whole new spin on the issue, I am all for it. Safe sex and fulfilling the need is as integral a part of a female as it is for a male.

    I say enjoy it. That is what is is meant for.

  82. cwaltz,

    That’s where the “more thoughtful interpretation” would come in. If the described neural reaction is true and replicable, and particularly if it exists in cultures seen as less woman-hostile than our own, it’s useful information. I for one want as much information about the causes of unfair treatment of me as possible. Even a poorly interpreted study is helpful in that regard, since it invites rebuttals and additional inquiry. The alternative is to wish things were different. How’s that working for you?
    *****A

  83. I remember that scene in the Mel Brooks spoof where Madeline Kahn had the soldiers line up and she made her choices for the night. Hilarious.

  84. bostonboomer,

    Understood that brain response varies between subjects, which is why more sampling would be helpful. But if brains were so different and adaptable that inferences about behavior could not be drawn from studying them, there wouldn’t be much use in being a psychologist, would there.
    *****A

  85. OMG! The octuplet mom is looking at new houses!!

    http://www.tmz.com/

  86. Adrienne in CA, maybe because the average abuser doesn’t have to fight to the death for the right to mate, or wrestle big hungry predators to protect his pride while the women hunt, provide and communally raise the offspring like lions, these “primal throwbacks” release their pent-up, ineffective against other males aggression where it’s easy.

  87. I don’t agree that a poorly constructed study is better than no study at all Adrienne.

  88. Adrienne,

    I didn’t say you couldn’t draw inferences. You had said the “source of the emotion,” which suggests causation. Most psychology is not done with brain studies. It’s a very new field and little is yet know about what conclusions can be drawn from these studies. As I said, It’s interesting. There is lots of other research out there on stereotyping if you are interested.

  89. OT but I think the Obama magic is fading. Youtube has an Obama video as one of its promoted videos. The coments are all negative and mean. Youtube used to delete these. They would never allow them during the elections.

  90. Cinie,

    Maybe. And that’s the spirit of inquiry that make brain science so fascinating. It’s not just men’s brains that need explaining. I’d also like to know why some women look passively to men for guidance and approval, or why they sabotage each other rather than banding together for the betterment of all women (and our children). Woman are carrying some evolutionary baggage too.
    *****A

  91. I’m not sure if I can make up my mind about objectifying men. Can someone post a lot more beefcake photos for purposes of research?

    This reminds me of an anecdote from a book I read about women in the ancient world. A woman from Gaul commented to a Roman matron that she couldn’t understand the mating habits of Roman women. The Gaulish woman said, “We Gaulish women pursue affairs with the best men right out in the open, but you Roman women sleep with the worst of men in secret.”

  92. Fredster,

    According to yahoo the grandma is facing foreclosure. I really feel for this family. There is something really wrong with the young woman IMO. It’s an absolute fantasy position that all children need is a “mother’s love.” She seems to have a real disconnect with reality.

  93. The life of a drone in the world of bees, not a pretty sight.

    The theory that men, at least hetero men, are intimidated by the use em and dump em inclination of women, so monagamy provides the captive construct we’re looking for. Well, that speaks to the ego, but not necessarily to the id.

  94. “This is not only irresponsible and biased but also bad science”

    Yes, and published by CNN. Most likely it will be on TV tonight and several nights running. The folks dumb enough to vote for Obama are not likely to question the ’science’ behind this story.

  95. perries…LOL…If I had known that putting that picture would have elicted so many fun pictures I would have done it a lot sooner :)

    Fredster, i’m at work, your links are going to get me into trouble….

  96. Adrienne, I am not science mocking. I am bad science mocking. I can already punch at least 5 holes in this study’s methodology from what I’ve read here.

  97. cwaltz,

    This poorly constructed study helps me. Next time I try to explain to my daughter that dressing too provocatively will cause men to take her less seriously, I’ll have evidence to cite. I really don’t see why this is so controversial. It’s common knowledge, no?

    *****A

  98. NH, I hate CNN. They spend all day yesterday talking about racist cartoons, then turn around and front page a sexist piece of crap like this article…arghhh…..

  99. Adrienne in CA: We are not mocking science in general but merely the “science” behind this load of crap.

  100. Adrienne,

    If you have her don a burkha then she won’t need to worry about being a distraction at all. I hear its all the rage in the ME.

  101. adrienne, so you will blame your daughter for the bad behavior of men and justify that with junk science? yikes!!

  102. Fredster, i’m at work, your links are going to get me into trouble

    Uh-oh. sorry ’bout dat!

    CWatlz- She doesn’t need to be looking at 1.2 million dollar houses. I’m sure there’s a double-wide somewhere with her name on it. Did you look at the pics of the house?

  103. so who’s going to do the “scientific study” that decides what constitutes “provocative dress”?

  104. cwaltz,

    exactly, if this theory is true, it would imply that the bhurka is in the best interest of a woman, if she wants to be taken seriously.

  105. fredster, I didn’t say to stop ;) LOL

  106. Gary-in that case I’ll dig up a few more. :lol:

  107. gary, it’s a spectrum that goes from pasties to bhurka from clothes that reveal the body’s form to articles that obscure it.

  108. Now I am confused. I thought I was normal because when I saw Hugh Jackman’s bare torso I said “ooog oog” and then I said “oog” again. Same thing with Daniel Craig. Oog. Me Cavewoman. Me use tool to conk them on the head and have their babies!

  109. Fredster,

    I don’t think the woman/girl(and she seems more girl than woman) is playing with a full deck. I don’t for a minute think she is going to be able to afford a 1.2 million dollar house. That being said I don’t think they have double wides with as many rooms as this woman is going to need for 14 kids.

    I would love to know how she paid for her fertility treatments. From what I understand they aren’t cheap.

  110. Science would be work much faster if all inferences were valid ones.

  111. So, am I to assume that pictures like these…
    http://www.extremekites.com.au/forums/showthread.php?t=6146
    …make men stupid, and that there’s what, something wrong with the dreamy-eyed women in the audience?

  112. We can leave out the pasties…..the very helpful study already concludes we shouldn’t be allowed to wear bikinis in public. So much for enjoying a day on the beach, I guess we have to go back to the days where we drowned when we tried to swim because we were required to wear piles of clothing.

  113. That being said I don’t think they have double wides with as many rooms as this woman is going to need for 14 kids.

    Triple-wide? ;-)

  114. Cinie, there seem to be just as many women watching the show as men.

  115. So, am I to assume that pictures like these make men stupid

    10-4 good buddy!

  116. Fredster, they need a compound.

  117. Ok this is just bad science I am sure RD was a scientist you would agree…

    And what tools would men be handling or what actions would men be doing while watching bikini clad ladies pictures….come on this is stupid!

    I bet stimulus money went to fund this crap science!

  118. Men walk around shirtless on beaches all of the time and no one bats an eyelash! But supposedly when we womenfolk walk around on a beach in a bikini, we are simply setting ourselves up to get either raped or catcalled at.
    Jesus Christ! If guys can come into my work shirtless (and really… sometimes these dudes really need to keep their shirts on. I mean, EW) then I can walk around in a miniskirt if it’s really hot outside. For Buddha’s sake!

  119. Mawm, I know. Anybody who’s ever been to a function where somebody hired a “dancer” knows that the women always rush to the front to watch.

  120. This idea that I have to be responsible for other people’s actions is really getting old.
    A female dresses a certain way and a male can’t control himself is bs.
    A female has a brain and ideas and speaks out loud about them and a male gets intimidated is bs
    A female can not do certain jobs as good as or better than a male is bs.
    A spouse is at fault if the other spouse cheats is bs.

    Gee I still like to look at good looking men and do not plan to get them young and train them.
    i do have a brain and ideas and intend to still speak out.
    I still can do some jobs better than some males and intend to continue doing so.
    I kept my marriage vows even after I left him.
    I have enough problems being responsible for me, I do not need the burden of being responsible for some fool that can not control their own actions.

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS,EQUALISTS AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  121. Does everyone remember the day Hillary wore a dress and all the media could talk about was the amount of cleavage she was showing? Well, now we know why? Our dear Hillary was dressed “too provocatively” for the male half of the species. They were simply so dazzled by her bosom that they could not focus on any of her actual policy positions. Of course they were conflicted by the feelings of “hostile sexism” because Hillary wasn’t seeking a place in their home but instead was “seeking to dominate them.” Criminy.

  122. hey ladies my obat friend Jon the German Phd student is a dancer he gives the “full monty” for the right price…

    Sort of like Pampers who for the right price bends over and lets anyone have their way with him!

    Ask George Soros!

  123. Men walk around shirtless on beaches all of the time and no one bats an eyelash!

    Unless they have moobs like Obama’s. He’s got a Ba-rack

  124. wait myiq2xu-I am a big bear….no fat jokes!

  125. Men walk around bottomless too in some beaches in Europe. You just need to keep smiling.

  126. I wonder if we can round up these young Princeton men and study them further. I seem to remeber something in my psych book about a girl, a bunny, and electric shock. I think we could reproduce results with these men, pictures of bikini clad women, and electric shock.

  127. This study is ridiculous. Geez… is this what my tax dollars are paying for? They better fucking not be.

    “They’re not fully conscious responses, and so people don’t know the extent to which they’re being influenced,” Fiske said. “It’s important to recognize the effects.”

    Oh please, they are perfectly conscious responses. If I see a really sexy guy, and this guy knows he is sexy and is obviously aware of his sexuality, I think “DAMN”, but that doesn’t mean I think that sex is the only thing he is good for, and I obviously know he is capable of independent thought, and I obviously am aware of the fact that he is a human being, that he probably has thoughts and opinions and feelings. I would also be aware of the fact that he might be just as good at cooking a mean turkey casserole, as say, Calculus.
    In other words, yes, I might realize that he could be great at a roll in the hay, but that doesn’t mean I think it is the only thing he is good for. I could end up having a really nice conversation with him too. It’s very simple. And I am one hundred percent mentally aware of that response.

    And as far as I am concerned, if men don’t have that response when they see a pretty woman, and I’m sure they do (I’m sure this article is crap), than society is simply enabling them, with Bull Shit “research” like this. I’m sure most men really do see girls, even pretty girls, as human beings, but prefer to make excuses like this article for themselves, howling about how it is all “evolution” that makes them publicly put down their girlfriends or try to embarrass them when they act smarter than them.

    As a feminist, I am insulted by the notion that women somehow have less pronounced libidos than men. Fertility and virility is a poor argument, because as the old saying goes, it takes two to tango, and women actually give birth to the children… you would think these smart big strong middle aged sex obsessed man scientists, would take note of that in their “research”.

  128. Does everyone remember the day Hillary wore a dress and all the media could talk about was the amount of cleavage she was showing? Well, now we know why? Our dear Hillary was dressed “too provocatively” for the male half of the species. They were simply so dazzled by her bosom that they could not focus on any of her actual policy positions. Of course they were conflicted by the feelings of “hostile sexism” because Hillary wasn’t seeking a place in their home but instead was “seeking to dominate them.” Criminy.

    I remember that! She looked pretty hot too…
    Tee hee! All the poor “Pundits” were covering it for at least two weeks. They were practically foaming at the mouth.

  129. The problem I have with this study and studies like it, is that they are dehumanizing in the extreme and reflect the ongoing denoblization of the human person, a consequence, I believe, of a general decline in religious sentiment in the larger society. If we are no more than the sum of our biochemistry, then we cannot be rightly expected to behave any differently than it dictates

    As to whether monogamy is of greater evolutionary benefit to men or women, I suggest it is neither. It is beneficial to the rearing of human offspring, who take an inordinate amount of time (comparatively) to mature (see Jon Favreau for example). The irony of the widespread use of chemical birth control is that the entire cost/responsibility for childrearing has been dumped on the woman while men are now “free” to mate and run without any perceived consequences. Hence we have the spectre of the the state playing the role of substitute father (via welfare) and/or chasing down the male to hold him to account for his progeny (child support decrees).

  130. littleisis,

    The author of the study was female. If I were a male I’d be absolutely insulted by the results. Sure, it gives men an “excuse” but it also implies that they have absolutely no impulse control whatsoever.

  131. the commenter, on February 19th, 2009 at 5:54 pm Said

    pretty perceptive comment, I think you are right on the money regarding progeny.

    Birth control is a bit of a double edged sword because it allowed women to behave in a manner more equivocal to the male half of the species. I’m not convinced though the urge wasn’t there prior to chemical birth control.

  132. garychapelhill (and others)

    Being cognizant of the world around us is not the same thing as blaming women for the actions of men. Really, would you all advise your daughters to wear skimpy clothes in the workplace because we just shouldn’t be bound by reality? I doubt it. Neither is a burkha the only alternative to the see-through blouse. Boy, people talk about CNN skewing information, but look what’s going on here. As to the study to discover what’s “too provocative,” I’d like to see that study too, with a range of clothing styles across cultures, ages, etc. If there’s something women can control to improve how they are perceived and respected by men, having that information is all to the good. If there’s not, let’s know it and proceed accordingly. Forewarned is forearmed.
    *****A

  133. I’m not convinced though the urge wasn’t there prior to chemical birth control.

    STD’s would not exist if everybody was as virtuous as they claim they are.

  134. Even if you grant that every thing they say is true, aren’t we supposed to be able to rise above the ‘primal’ and be adults. And if men are biologically incapable of controlling their ‘instincts’ then maybe they shouldn’t be in charge of anything.

  135. littleisis this study is stinky phyllis schafly and the eagle forum probably funded it to undermine the ERA

  136. snark is not skewing….

  137. celeste you are so right!

  138. I got news for you Adrienne, in the military we wore the equivalent of a prison uniform( a blue chambry shirt stenciled with my name and a pair of dungarees also stenciled with my name) and you still had men that would comment on a womans boobs or backside and it took me a week to get placed on the mens room wall(evidently I was supposed to be flattered).

    Feel free to tell your daughter though that she should be covered from head to toe because otherwise the poor men she encounters might not be able to concentrate on the fact that she has a thought in her head. Myself personally, I’m not teaching MY children that there are ANY excuses for treating a human being(male or female) as if they were mere eye candy.

  139. Oh wait I forgot that was my fault also because I was seeking to “dominate them” instead of staying at home.

    That’s the part you got to love about this study. It basically says we should be at home and when we go out be covered from head to toe so we don’t distract the men.

    Why does that kind of behavior sound vaguely familiar? hmmmmmnmmmm maybe because it is the exact same kind of bunk that occurs over in the Middle Eastern cultures.

  140. cwaltz, on February 19th, 2009 at 5:23 pm Said:

    I would love to know how she paid for her fertility treatments. From what I understand they aren’t cheap.

    cwaltz, I read that she received a $165,000 settlement for an injury received at work.

    BTW, it is wonderful to have you back here, Gary. I don’t comment often but I read the site every day. You were missed.

    Quick comment about inviting attention/catcalls by being “too provocative.” My sister received some of the worst catcalls when she was pregnant. Obviously she wasn’t dressed provocatively. Catcalls are just a way to humiliate, IMHO.

  141. Most str8 men (myiq2xu excluded) deserve to be dominated

  142. Cwaltz, I heard Octo-mom got a 168K insurance settlement for a workplace injury.

    BTW, just want to say that it is wonderful to have you back, Gary. I don’t comment very often but I read the site every day. You were missed.

    Quick comment re: the whole asking for attention by dressing provocatively thing … my sister received some of the worst catcalls when she was pregnant. IMHO, the catcalls are just a way of degrading women.

  143. Well, whoever conducted this “study” my reactions are the same.
    As for birth control, it has been around for a long time. Other methods have been used over the mellenia, and it is silly to believe that people only started using it in the 1960’s or whatever.

    As for monogomy, the argument that only men aren’t “biologically” inclined to it is ridiculous. Don’t make me laugh. Infidelity has occurred in 80% of all relationships, statistically. And women cheat just as much as men do, even if their motives for cheating may occasionally vary.

    I’m not convinced though the urge wasn’t there prior to chemical birth control.

    Exactly.

  144. Most str8 men (myiq2xu excluded) deserve to be dominated

    *Makes out with fuzzy*

  145. Fredster
    and all other posters from New Orleans, No Quarter has a post up about what the stimulus pkg will do for New Orleans.
    They will get the lowest unemployment benefits of all the states.
    I guess putting the money where it is needed most is not our new governments priority.

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS,EQUALISTS AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  146. Anyone else having problems getting their comment to post?

  147. cwaltz said:I’m not teaching MY children that there are ANY excuses for treating a human being(male or female) as if they were mere eye candy.

    EXACTLY!! I have 5 sons and not one of them would ever even think of saying ‘I can’t help it, it is my biology”. They treat all people with respect, no matter what they are wearing. And they are all perfectly capable of overcoming any “hard-wiring there that can interfere with the average man’s ability to interact on deeper levels with really hot looking stranger women”. They are capable of doing this because I taught them to be adults and they know I would slap them silly if they did anything else.

  148. cwaltz,

    Yeah, well, prisons aren’t noted bastions of equality of any kind, let alone sexual equality. And good luck teaching your children not to take sh-t from anyone. It’s what we’ve been doing for 100 years and you can see where it’s gotten us.
    *****A

  149. Even if you grant that every thing they say is true, aren’t we supposed to be able to rise above the ‘primal’ and be adults. And if men are biologically incapable of controlling their ‘instincts’ then maybe they shouldn’t be in charge of anything.

    I am of the opinion that they are as able to “control” it, as women. Again, articles like these are just living proof that men use things like this to make excuses for themselves. meanwhile, women who behave similarly are simply “whores” or “sluts”.

    ittleisis this study is stinky phyllis schafly and the eagle forum probably funded it to undermine the ERA

    Is she the one that wrote it? I remember who she is! That explains a lot.

  150. ven if you grant that every thing they say is true, aren’t we supposed to be able to rise above the ‘primal’ and be adults. And if men are biologically incapable of controlling their ‘instincts’ then maybe they shouldn’t be in charge of anything.

    I am of the opinion that they are as able to “control” it, as women. Again, articles like these are just living proof that men use things like this to make excuses for themselves. meanwhile, women who behave similarly are simply “wh*res” or “sl*ts”.

    ittleisis this study is stinky phyllis schafly and the eagle forum probably funded it to undermine the ERA

    Is she the one that wrote it? I remember who she is! That explains a lot.

  151. Oh, btw, will you be teaching everyone else’s children while you’re at it?
    *****A

  152. Please take me out of moderation! *winks*

  153. Funny thing is I never saw my desire to earn a living as a desire to dominate whatsoever. I saw it as a way to provide for myself and learn more about who I was.

    Then again if I provide for myself then why would I NEED a man vs. want one? I wouldn’t. I’m convinced that the idea that if a womans place isn’t home and hearth is all about a man being threatened by the idea that they will not be allowed to dominate me rather than the other way around. Projection is an ugly thing.

  154. The irony of the widespread use of chemical birth control is that the entire cost/responsibility for childrearing has been dumped on the woman while men are now “free” to mate and run without any perceived consequences

    I completely disagree. Contraception, especially the pill has not burdened women, it has set them free.

  155. EXACTLY!! I have 5 sons and not one of them would ever even think of saying ‘I can’t help it, it is my biology”. They treat all people with respect, no matter what they are wearing. And they are all perfectly capable of overcoming any “hard-wiring there that can interfere with the average man’s ability to interact on deeper levels with really hot looking stranger women”. They are capable of doing this because I taught them to be adults and they know I would slap them silly if they did anything else.

    Well said, I say!

  156. Yep, men are in some ways superfluous in our society because we are longer required to go off and die in large numbers to protect society, or to kill large things to eat while the women, great with child, tend to hearth and home, and make sure the next generation survives. Of course if it were only women, there would never be war or fighting or any discord whatsoever; everyone would be a wonderful socialist utopia of bliss.

    So yeah…. nobody needs a man and women are the greatest thing ever
    snark

  157. I always have to laugh at the terrible image of men these kind of studies conjur up. I mean, even my dog can be taught not to hump the neighbors leg! But supposedly men don’t even have the intelligence or impulse control of a dog?

  158. Projection is an ugly thing.

    Exactly. And that is what it is. Men who feel threatened by women who are independent are often insecure of themselves and project their insecurities onto those women.

    I completely disagree. Contraception, especially the pill has not burdened women, it has set them free.

    As I said before, non-chemical (though my comment is in moderation!) birth control has been around since the beginning of time.

  159. Yttk, I think it is insulting to men.

  160. The commenter
    But men are so cute and once in while come in handy for heavy lifting. Also good for reaching things in high cabinets.

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE, MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS,EQUALIST AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  161. Adrienne,

    I was in the MILITARY, not prison. The uniforms are a chambry workshirt and dungarees. Evidently there are men out there that find those provocative. What do you suggest those women do don burkhas or undergo masectomies?

    I’ll leave you to the gentle rearing of your daughter. I wish her lots of luck. Hopefully she is heavily inclined to stay at home so men will peer upon her in a benevolent way. I’ll be teaching my daughter if men are distracted by her looks that is their problem not hers. I’ll be teaching her that it isn’t benevolence that creates the position that she belongs at home rather than where SHE chooses. It’s about a desire for them to dominate her. I’ll be teaching my sons to recognize that each individual is unique. Men and women alike have hopes, dreams, and aspirations that should be respected. Does that cover it for you?

  162. if men are distracted by her looks that is their problem not hers

    exactly

  163. I did a study on the history of birth control when I was a student.

    All I have to say is be glad you’re not an ancient Egyptian

  164. “Contraception, especially the pill has not burdened women, it has set them free.”

    That’s actually a complicated issue. In some ways it has simply alleviated men from having to take any responsibility whatsoever. Kind of like this study does.

  165. the commenter

    The good men will always be WANTED rather than needed ;)

    Personally, if I were a man I’d want a partner rather than a barbie doll to control anyways. What do I know though I’m just a girl.

  166. littleisis-

    Phyllis Schaffly credits herself as the woman who brought down the ERA she is the founder and president of The Eagle Forum….SHe used homophobia and feninism and scare tactics to do this in Florida and several other states.

    She was later embarassedwhen it turns out one of her sons is gay she has spent lots of money trying to “convert him to girls”!

    She also refuses to acknowledge he is gay on camera and it was rumored that she tried to get him a labotomy to cure him if his unnatural urges.

    She is a female John Burch-Karl Rove!

    Does that sum her up gary mawm and myiq2xu?

  167. Phyllis is suffers from internalized fem-a-phobia

  168. fuzzy, you’re being too kind to her…

  169. Sorry, but I often have strong impulses to kill people who are being idiots — which I’m sure I can make up a cr*p ev-psych justification for and prove using a handful of colleges kids — but that doesn’t mean it’s ok for me to go around offing people. Or that my victims courted murder by being idiotic.

    And did anyone else think it was just freakin’ bizarre that they defined “adversarial viewpoint” sexism as “the belief that women attempt to dominate men.” Um, that’s not exactly the first criteria that leaps to mind. In fact, it sounds rather like that propaganda from those creepy fathers’ rights groups.

    And even if it were all true (and proved with proper control samples, etc.), how does a brain section lighting up translate to “women should stay at home”?

    Bad design, bad data, bad conclusions.

  170. I don’t know about this study but there have been plenty of studies in the past that demonstrate that there is a universal concept of beauty across all cultures. There is a preferred waist to hip ratio (I believe the ideal is .4). There is also of evidence of certain preferred mathematically expressions in nature, like the golden ratio. . From my limited knowledge of ethology, it wouldn’t surprise me that the genders respond to certain visual cues. I freely admit to enjoying the view of a callipygian guy. And seriously, wouldn’t the world be a sterile place if we didn’t have an appreciation for the human body and were compelled to act on that appreciation?
    The thing is, there is a time and place for all of it and men have had a millenium’s worth of upper body strength advantage to assume that they can do what they please, when they please. This has lead to some anachronistic assumptions on their part, like, if a woman looks good, she must be dumb. No, if a woman looks good and a man wants her, he has the strength to bend her will to his. That doesn’t make her dumb and this day and age, she might well be carrying a taser and has spent months in kickboxing.
    But females do have ways of evening the score. Female chimps have been found to be much more promiscuous than previously thought. Those stupid alpha males have no idea how the females are changging the betas behind their backs. But it’s a good way of getting gentetic diversity in the group. So there.
    We’re in a different era. Biology is not destiny anymore. Women are no longer subject to the aging process in having children nor are they compelled to have children when they don’t want to, This frees up their time and minds to pursue other things. The old regime is going to become extinct fairly rapidly. In a hundred years, I predict that there will be no differences in the power structure between men and women and everyone will be able to oogle all they want but will have learned to table it in the conference room.
    The bad thing is that we probably won’t live to see it. But in the evolutionary scheme of things, it’s going to be really fast. Thank you Carl Djerassi.

  171. I may do a class on:

    Dominating Men for fun and Profit….

    A dominatrix friend of mine charges me to clean her toilet polish her boots and dust and do windows. If they make a mistake she whips them wiith a riding crop….

    She never takes off her clothes, her house is clean and she drives a benz!

    I am in the wrong business!

  172. I’m a relatively new poster here so I don’t want to get off on the wrong foot, and here it comes…but:

    While the study does have flaws in its methodology it does provoke the desired response of any true, honest study. It has caused a rather lengthy discussion. I have read all the responses and while there has been a lot of emotion I have yet to see anyone present any reason why the premise is actually not true. I’m not saying it is true but I am not convinced that it can’t be true.

    Science, even poorly constructed science causes research into the hypothesis posited. A conclusion has been thrown out there now comes the fun part, replication or refutation. Let the research (games) begin.

    Heres a sobering thought: What if it is correct?

  173. BB-you are kidding right? no facial hair and a smooth chest is always a non starter for me….

  174. Actually RD Marlyn Monroe and Jane Russells bodies actually personify the perfect preportion of waist hips and bust…these were not skinny girls by no means!

  175. January 29, 2009 in Mind & Brain

    Voodoo Correlations: Have the Results of Some Brain Scanning Experiments Been Overstated?

    http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=brain-scan-results-overstated

  176. crap spelling disaster returns:

    should read:

    A dominatrix friend of mine charges MEN to clean her toilet polish her boots and dust and do windows. If they make a mistake she whips them wiith a riding crop….

  177. Also because I am gay my Hypothalmus is supposed to be larger thean a str8 mans….no wonder they hate us!

    we aare bigger and have peni$ years too!

  178. fuzzy,

    It’s the proportions that are preferred. It’s not about body size. Venus de Milo wasn’t thin either.

  179. gary I am being kind to Ms Schaffly?

    Note to self don’t do that again!

  180. SHV,

    That is what I tried to say up above, but got ignored….

  181. We agree BB on that!

  182. And good luck teaching your children not to take sh-t from anyone. It’s what we’ve been doing for 100 years and you can see where it’s gotten us.

    You have got to be frakkin’ kidding me.

    How about: the right to vote, the right to own property, the right to work, the right to parent our children, the right to be free of sex discrimination in the workplace (title vii), the right to participate in all school activities equally (title ix), and the right to access to contraception? For starters.

    Is this truly an argument that women should just shut up and be nice? Where on this green earth has THAT ever gotten us anywhere?

  183. Actually I wish some one would give Phyllis a Labotomy! the world would be a nicer place specially if Karl Rove and Andrew Sullivan shared a semio private room with her!

  184. “People in Love Are Blind to Pretty Faces
    A built-in aversion”

    http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=people-in-love-are-blind-to-pretty-faces

  185. fuzzy: Not necessarily. The waist to hip ratio is fairly consistent but I never read a study about the size of breasts. The other thing is the ratio of the planes in the face, spacing between the eyes, clearness of skin and eyes and delicacy of the female chin. These are all physical characteristics that demonstrate preferred estrogen levels. Models are superfreaks in some respects because their ratios and proportions are nearly perfect. You don’t have to be filled out to have the right ratios. I suspect any woman in Vogue would qualify. Of course, there is such a thing as too thin but think Cindy Crawford, Heidi Klum or Giselle Bundchen and you’re pretty close to the ideal.

  186. Vallhalla Amyn Sister!

  187. First Lesbian wedding on daytime TV on All My Children

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/TV/02/16/soap.same.sex.wedding/

  188. Help. I’m in moderation and I don’t know why.

  189. Valhalla

    That was the questionaire portion of the study. I do think the study is bunk. 21 men is hardly a big control group for something that is concluding something about an entire gender of millions.

    It’d be more conclusive to say the men at Princeton are jerks since they didn’t even pick from different socioeconomic or geographic areas.

  190. I agree riverdaughter I wasnt actually talking about the size of the brest I was trying to show the top ratio is important too…sorry I would be the last to objectify womens breast-LOL-but a nice set of fuzzy pecs and a belly Woof!

    By the way I have touched a breast or two in my day but it was mostly helping girlsfriends, I cannot believe what some companies push as a comfortable bra I think most are tourcher devices, get ready for their dates with the quarterback!

    I agree with you RD on that! I always thought Heidi Klum looked radiant pregnant on project runway!

  191. cwaltz — ah, I see. It would also be more conclusive to say that the study proves only that men everywhere should be heavily restrained so that women can move about freely in society without fear of assault from ‘benign sexism’.

  192. Valhalla,

    No one said women should shut up and be nice. I’m arguing for more information, not less, and not status quo. And if it’s true that women’s rights are pregressing normally and haven’t plateaued or reversed, then what’s to worry about? Hillary lost on the merits and 17% of women in Congress is about right.
    *****A

  193. Of course with Heidi you are either in or you are out….

    Collin Firth with a beard would be sexy to me!

  194. oh no she didn’t! LOL

  195. Adrienne, your prison analogy doesn’t hold up when one considers the number of rapes in men’s prisons. Was it something the guy that got gangbanged wore that caused the other guys to force themselves on him in the shower? The study is silly. How many women are attacked when they’re not wearing bikinis? How many college aged guys don’t get erections when they see a pretty girl in a bikini? I’ll say it again, the study is silly.

  196. Oh, I get it now, Adrienne is a troll.

  197. fuzzy: My point is there is nothing wrong with objectification. If you didn’t find something in your lover’s physique to objectify, you wouldn’t be normal whether you are gay or straight. I think it’s wonderful that we can be attracted by little instances of human beauty. Gawd knows, it fades fast enough. Enjoy it while you can. There’s just a time and place for everything. But just because we objectify doesn’t mean we should guilty about it. If sex sells products, that’s because advertisers are taking advantage of built in preferences. There is plenty of eye candy for females in the media as well. We just aren’t allowed to act on it in the same way but trust me, we notice it and slobber too.

  198. It’s a bad study imo.

    That’s my story and I’m stickin to it.

  199. Fuzzy: Colin Firth with a beard would work for me too. I love Mr. Darcy.

  200. RD-
    I never though supermodel body proportions were natural. In fact, I think a lot of men don’t find supermodel bodies attractive, though they might not admit it. Like, if a man says to me, “I like a girl with meat on her bones”, I usually just translate that to mean, “I like a girl who looks human.”

    I think men have different preferences when it comes to women. And women have different preferences when it comes to men.

    Like, some women really go crazy for guys with a lot of chest hair. But some women also prefer men without much chest hair.

    Some women like more skinny men with stringy muscles. but other women like big burly men with thick necks.

    I’m sure it’s the same with men. It all depends on personal preference. Like, B*sh vs no B*sh, ect.

  201. Cinie:

    Is the study silly or are some of the conclusions drawn from the study silly?

  202. There is plenty of eye candy for females in the media as well. We just aren’t allowed to act on it in the same way but trust me, we notice it and slobber too.
    ************
    I find it interesting that at the magazine section at B & N, the magazine covers of the “women’s interest” section and the “male interet section” are quite similar.

  203. RD we we have the same taste in men could still go to the same bar together we would just have to say gay collins firths on the left and str8 collin firths on the right!

  204. Littleisis-I go for big burly blue collar men with facial hair like me-Bonus is these guys tend to not like Obama! to busy clinging to gays guns and country!

  205. http://www.seafarer.com/gallery.htm

    The provocative outfits in question. The only difference in a male and female uniform is the gig line(the direction the zipper and belt buckle face).

    If someone finds this type of outfit provocative then I have a hard time believing they wouldn’t find anything provocative. which brings me back to my point for Adrienne. How does telling your daughter not to dress provocatively help in situations such as this? It doesn’t.
    It’s better IMO to prepare her for the fact that there are going to be men out there that may value her for her looks but those men are wrong and dumb for not recognizing that she is more than the sum of her body parts.

  206. By the way I have touched a breast or two in my day but it was mostly helping girlsfriends, I cannot believe what some companies push as a comfortable bra I think most are tourcher devices, get ready for their dates with the quarterback!

    Oh you have no idea fuzzy… especially for us well endowed girls. Trying to stuff ourselves in a decent push up for a date. It is like rolling out one of those really big sleeping bags and trying to shove them in their little baggies afterwords… a lost cause.

    RD, yes there is nothing wrong with objectification… I think it is the context of the objectification that matters. Sexuality can be so beautiful, but when you only see someone as an object, you aren’t seeing their sexuality for what it is, because a person’s sexuality is a part of their humanity. And when a woman or a man is turned into a sexual object, that takes away from their humanity, and therefore their sexuality, so all of the sex sucks later on anyway.

    And I think that supermodel bodies are the standard of how women should look, precisely because so few feminine women look that way. Supermodels are very tall… their hips are always very narrow, and they are impossibly thin. They don’t look like women, so holding their bodies as a standard for how women are supposed to allegedly look is a way to further diminish women in our society.
    I mean, that is what I have been thinking lately.
    But a lot of girls are born with those kinds of bodies, and that is perfectly okay. There are many models that I really like, such as Gazelle Bunchean (don;t know how to spell her name) she is very nice.

  207. well I hate to say it but the guy/signalman at the bottom with the mustashe is pretty hot cwaltz-and it is not the uniform that turns me on!

  208. Littleisis-I go for big burly blue collar men with facial hair like me-Bonus is these guys tend to not like Obama! to busy clinging to gays guns and country!

    *snuggles fuzzy*

    I like big tall men, but I sort of like skinny guys too. Just as long as they aren’t pale and icky. If they have those whatsits… “washboard abs”… That is what I really like.

  209. Littleisis Heidi Klum is not that tall!

    and I wonder if the reason Naomi Cambell is always so mean is because she is hungry all the time…

    I am like for the love of Goddess some one get her a cheezeburger…no make it a double!

  210. I have washboard abs but theay are hidden by my fuzzy belly…

  211. You know I am just generalizing fuzzy…

    gosh don’t talk about cheeseburgers. I’m starving too!

  212. me to and I am becoming a semi vegitarian on ash wednesday

  213. *gobbles up chips*

  214. “”…a person’s sexuality is a part of their humanity. And when a woman or a man is turned into a sexual object, that takes away from their humanity, and therefore their sexuality, so all of the sex sucks later on anyway.”

    PUMAs say the smartest things. Thanks, Littleisis.

  215. I have washboard abs but theay are hidden by my fuzzy belly…

    *pets fuzzy’s belly*

  216. only eating fish for lent and lots of veggies gotta skinny up Gay Days at disney are on June 5th!

    Gotta fit the stereotype for the fundie protesters!

  217. Fuzzy- I’m kinda giving up carbs. The will is stronger, than the flesh.

  218. My favorite protester at these events are the “high hair” ladies the have their hair teased so high that the creator could snatch them bald headed….

    An other favorite is the x-gay bears….I usually meet them later at the P-House and they aint X-gay anymore!

  219. PUMAs say the smartest things. Thanks, Littleisis.

    *bows*
    I know that’s true! Anywho, I am off. I’m going to take a nap before my ma gets home and we watch a movie.

  220. Honora I do enjoy the religious aspect of both lent and advent….fyi

  221. isnt it time for a new thread?

  222. native 1, I think if you take 21 college aged guys and put clamps on their goody sacs then ask them if they’d rather hang out with bikini-clad women or homeless people, you probably shouldn’t be surprised by their visceral responses.

  223. I wonder if the person who did this did the study/survey back in 1993 that said only .5% of the population was gay lesbian or transgendered?

  224. Cinie- if you took 21 male princeton undergrads and hooked electrodes to their goody sacks and gave them a nice 24 vlt jolt every time they responded to a sexy bekini clad woman-I would call it a good start!

  225. sorry 240 volt shock….

  226. When I used travel between Philadelphia and New York and Hoboken to work we could tell when someone from Princeton got on the train.
    Most of them were full of themselves and acted like jerks.
    When someone we knew was acting stupid we would ask them “did to you go to class at Princeton today”?
    If this study only took 21 Princeton students no wonder it is flawed.

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS,EQUALISTS AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  227. fuzzy- My son think ashes are the best part of being Catholic. The problem is that he is 12 and sometimes he does not wash them off until Easter. lol

  228. I guess the reason I don’t agree is that I once was recruited to attend Princeton from my small rural school in Oklahoma. While I don’t consider myself a jerk I am open to the possibility that I am mistaken.

    My contention is that this test is not silly. It should be easily replicated or refuted. If in fact the same areas of the brain do “light up” when men view attractive women and when they handle tools then the investigation of why this is might be very informative. I agree that to tie the events together without further study is not good science, but to pass it off without good evidence is also irresponsible, imho.

  229. Knowing you guys, this has already been posted, but just in case, here’s a great clip of Hillary in Indonesia warning young people on a music program about her singing (follow the video link for Clinton on Foreign Affairs):

    http://abcnews.go.com/search?searchtext=Hillary%20Clinton&type=

  230. Fuzzy has a head cold so he is making organic free trade tea and honey with lemon to make him feel better

  231. Native1
    Were you full of yourself and act like a jerk towards other people?
    If not you would not have fit in at Princeton.
    I do understand that college students are still finding themselves but good manners and respect still need to be practiced.
    They never understood you can learn from everybody and your family”s money does not make you smart.

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS,EQUALISTS AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  232. bb: from the lesbian wedding on AMC:

    At least one religious group, however, expressed its disapproval of the nuptials.

    “I think it is really important to understand that there are a lot of things that people don’t really want to see and don’t want coming into their homes, and lesbian weddings are certainly one of them,” said Glenn Stanton of the group Focus on the Family.

    “Focus on Our Version of a Family.” Another Orwellian hate group.

  233. helenk:

    I don’t think that I am a jerk or ever have been. I would have dearly loved to have gone to Princeton but I knew that my parents could never have afforded to help me even though they would have tried until they died if I had asked them. I worked my way through a very good ( in my opinion) school and my parents did help. I was offered help to get into graduate school at Harvard or Edinburgh Scotland. I regret that I passed up the opportunities to go. Maybe that proves I wasn’t smart enough to go. :-)

    By the way PUMAs and Equalists still rule!

  234. I have to tell you Fucos on the family is a real hate group gives christians a bad name

  235. native1: not everyone who went/goes to Princeton is a jerk. Just as we can’t generalize about “gun toting bitter clinging” working class folks, not all Ivy grads are elitist narcissists.

  236. native1
    You are probably smarter and better raised than a lot of the people that did act like jerks while going to Princeton.
    It seems to me the values you are taught are more important than some of the things taught at school.
    I am willing to bet you are more successful in life than a lot of the Princeton grads.

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS,EQUALISTS AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  237. did you know if you google riverdaughter you get like 158000 matches wow

  238. fif:

    I agree. I also apologize for straying off topic. I am constantly amazed at the ability of the regulars here to disagree in such a polite way. It has been awhile since I have been able to participate in such lively conversation.

  239. the tea lemon and honey made me feel good

  240. I have no connection to Princeton, but I bet it has the same percentage of horrible people as does everywhere else.

  241. Native 1
    What I wanted for my son was to go to college in the winter and sail a freighter around the world in the summer. He would of had an education of books and of life. He did not do this and thought I was crazy.
    My daughters worked and took college classes and are raising families while they are doing so.

    On Topic
    I still look at attractive men< I just don’t touch.

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE, MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS, BUBBAS,EQUALISTS AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  242. helenk:

    I don’t know about more successful, but I believe I may be more content. I am very lucky or blessed that I had very good role models in my family as I grew up. It kills me to see kids who have no direction or parenting trying to cope in todays world. Values can’t be taught in school. Real leaders lead, real parents parent. Values have to be a way of life not an act.

    Off the soap box, sorry. Man where did that come from? :-)

    I’ll lurk for the rest of the night.

  243. helenk:

    You sound just like my mom. Thats a good thing by the way. She read poems to me when I was small about sailing off into the wide world. My great grandfather was an engineer for the Sante Fe RR. He told my mom he was going to take her with him so she could see the entire country. Her one regret in life is that he died before she was able to go. I think this is why she always encouraged me to strike out on my own. She went on to get her Ph.D and worked in South America for a couple of years so she did get to see some of the world. My dad by the way was a fire fighter and supported my mother in all her efforts. A smart mom and strong dad and here I am. My wish is that everyone had the blessings that I have had.

    Really going to lurk now!

  244. OT> Did everyone see our BFF’s James Clyburn’s latest proclamation that Southern governors who reject the stimulus plan are slapping blacks in the face? Clyburn is r@ce-baiting yet again; opposing the stimulus package is now r@cist!

  245. *sigh* I’m in moderation at 9:37.

  246. I iove this quote: ” ”Many men make foolish choices because of sexual attraction,” he said.

    He, being Dr. Charles Raison who dissects reactions to strip clubs but, according to the article ” was not involved in the study.”

    Poor men, Thank goodness I, as a woman, have never made a foolish choice because of sexual attraction, oops, scratch that. -)

  247. Whoa, still goin’ with this thread..

  248. But the most important thing they learned in this study is that women should further self-censor and be aware that it is their fault when men act inappropriately, because of course, they can’t help themselves…. ie: with no consequences to condition improved behavior, why would they?

  249. Deja_Vu, nice arms.

  250. Now I know one of the reasons that I liked you. You have railroad in the blood.
    I work with many Santa Fe people and naturally I must explain to them that if they did not work for the Pennsylvania RR they really do not know railroading.
    When I got married our best man was a Philadelphia Fireman.

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS, EQUALIST AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  251. TW, loving the arms reference, LOL!

  252. I think this is wonderful research to prove that men are incapable of controlling their primal urges. They are trapped in an evolutionary cycle and the difficulties of a complex world are beyond them. But it isn’t their fault.. Therefore, because of biology they should not be in charge of anything .

  253. Ok, night all, :-)

  254. Deja

    LOL Yeah, It’s only the male half of the species that make dumb decisions based on hormones. Thank God(rolling my eyes).

    native1

    I don’t think the much of the study or its conclusions. 21 men is a pretty small sample.

    If I have 21 infants from similar backgrounds in rooms with night lights and they all manage to avert dying from SIDS can I then conclude that having a night light will help a parent’s child avert SIDS?

    As far as I’m concerned they can study away. I think it would be interesting though if time was taken to figure out as BB has said how much of their response was nurture rather than nature. They certainly aren’t convincing me that young men aren’t driven to consider sex as a highly desired goal independant of our culture. It isn’t like men that get laid often aren’t referred to as studs and given high fives by their male counterparts. Our culture encourages promiscuity in the male half of the species. Men are laudatory when men have a high sexual count and women(like the one above) appear to make excuses for them. It’s a darn shame.

  255. This study isn’t science —

    Darwin recognized FEMALE CHOICE — females CHOOSE the males they want to mate with.

    Peacock tails are the result of female choice — and we human females choose our mates.

    What Darwin described and made a logical argument for (female choice) the MALE scientists ignored and/or forgot until it was rediscovered in the late 60s/early 70s.

    As pointed out above — a tiny sample size of MALE ONLY subjects is meaningless.

    “Studies” like this give “scientists” a bad name. These idiots who ran this “research” should be kicked to the street.

  256. cwaltz:

    “If I have 21 infants from similar backgrounds in rooms with night lights and they all manage to avert dying from SIDS can I then conclude that having a night light will help a parent’s child avert SIDS?”

    Yes that is one conclusion you can make. A conclusion is not proof rather an arrow indicating a path of possible further study. The above study is not proof that its conclusions are fact, only that they may be.

    I believe that in some ways all humans are to some extent “hard wired” how else can we take the enormous amount of data that our senses provide every nano-second and not be a simple vegetable because of overload. I don’t necessarily agree with the conclusions that the study comes to. I believe that it should have been given the caveat that further and more rigorous study is needed and that any conclusions drawn should be handled with care.

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