Obama Team Announces TARP Plan: Market Crashes

I hope you weren’t planning on using any of those savings that you may still have left sitting out there in anything market-related soon.  The Dow Jones ( at this writing) is off over 350 points.  All of the blue chip components tumbled.  The S&P and OTC markets aren’t faring any better.  This is how Market Watch sees it right now:

The recent strength shown by U.S. stocks vanished on Tuesday as the government unveiled a new bank-rescue plan and congressional action neared on a fresh round of fiscal stimulus for the wheezing U.S. economy.

That basically amounts to a reaction of last night’s speechification and presser and this morning’s announcement of  thunderous boos.   Fed Chair Ben Bernanke is speaking right now and that’s not really helping either.  The investment/business community doesn’t think any of the largess from either the TARP or the Stimulus Plan are really going to do anything.    Treasury Bond prices are dropping also.    This additional snippet from Market Watch sums it up well.

“First, we’re going to require banking institutions to go through a carefully designed comprehensive stress test, to use the medical term. We want their balance sheets cleaner, and stronger. And we are going to help this process by providing a new program of capital support for those institutions which need it,” said Geithner.
Despite the forceful words, Geithner noted his office was still exploring options and details for an asset value program, with little answer on what to do about banks’ toxic assets.

That last paragraph is basically at the crux of the problem.  The current administration is bringing no plan to the table to actually deal with the problem.  Perhaps because Geithner was so instrumental in the original TARP, he’s just sticking with what already didn’t work rather than trying to think outside of the box.  The market has lost around 3-4% already and there’s several more hours of trading to go.  Hang on to your cookie jars kids, you’re going to need them as a stable replacement for your local bank.

Meanwhile, the senate managed to pass that the stimulus bill 61-37.  That’s way shy of the 80 votes that Obama had wanted. The final bill has $838 billion worth of stuff that includes a lot of tax cuts (not likely to stimulate anything but Grover Norquist and The Club for Growth) and money for cash strapped states.   I’ve brought up links to the Economic Policy Institute earlier but I really like this graph that even my freshmen could grasp about what works and doesn’t work in stimulus plans.

20081022snapshot600 You can see the difference between the items where you get more bang than a buck and less than a buck’s worth of bang while contributing to the deficit.   Notice those tax cuts that wind up costing more than they stimulate and think the last eight years of Dubya of which we seem to be repeating.

Here’s one that I picked up from Brad DeLong’s Grasping Reality with Both Hands that had my Freshman gasping as I was trying to set their hair afire.  (I think it worked, btw.)  Any one facing this job market should panic.  Just anecdotal, but in the market for  finance professors, this year universities were taking resumes only at the last two conferences.  Last year, the best people had been hired up before either of the conferences were held and only the marginal remained.  The hottest academic jobs are definitely on hold.  In my years of both public and private sector economisting, I’ve NEVER seen anything like this.

20090209-pkgam89m1f8sm71rtic1e6i1ajrenderPlease notice the incredible level of job losses.  If you’ve managed to get through a calculus course, you’ll see that the first, second and third derivatives are negative which is not true on the other series at similar points.  Basically, for you nonmath types, this indicates nothing but a downward trend or as I like to put it, straight off a cliff.

So, President Obama rambled an economics lecture last night that made me happy that he was getting all those economics briefings.   It was also pretty obvious that most of his advisers must have their hair on fire too, because he did have a sense of edgy panic when he talked about the situation.  However, ‘edgy panic’ is not what I want in a president.  I want a president to talk about we have nothing to fear but fear itself who then says something to the effect of  let’s do  what works instead of bargaining away what will with folks that aren’t interested in watching you succeed.

I have to say, last night over Margaritas with my neighbors, I was searching for folks that wanted to diversify their food options with neighborhood gardening.  I had a lot of takers.  After all, when the army and your police force spend a good amount of time and money flying sleek black helicopters around the skies of your city practicing for food riots, it’s kind of one of those wake up moments. That goes for sleepy freshmen and drunk Cajuns.  Is your hair on fire yet?  Because if it isn’t, you haven’t been listening.

Meanwhile, I’m adding a page to my own blog for sharing sustainability and survival stories.  Feel free to visit and contribute.

166 Responses

  1. I have no savings. I blew most of my money on sins of the flesh. The rest I just wasted.

  2. Dow show — The Precious has approval ratings in the 60s!

  3. my: nobody loves you when you’re down and out …

  4. on a happy note, gold is up by $21 an ounce, that ought make the Ron Paulies happy

  5. Angie-I just heard his approval rating is 67%

  6. The Dow Jones is r@cist!

  7. O/T, but Bob Somerby has now conferred a new name onto The One……Dear Leader. Love it!

    Dear Leader it is from now on.

  8. BENTONVILLE, Ark. — Wal-Mart Stores Inc. began laying off workers at its northwestern Arkansas headquarters Tuesday morning.

    http://www.4029tv.com/money/18682143/detail.html?treets=fts&tml=fts_break&ts=T&tmi=fts_break_1_11460102102009

    When Wal-mart begins layoffs, the economy is in real trouble.

  9. we will all need margaritas in order to keep our sanity as me bend over and kiss our asses goodbye.

  10. I thought Walmart’s sales were up (because it was the only place people could afford to shop).

  11. He is “living” off that 67% right now. This is why they feel comfortable about sending him out to the hardest hit areas where his “supporters” can ask for a new car, house, and kitchen as one lady did in Ft. Myers. This is how they see him.

  12. dakinikat, on February 10th, 2009 at 2:54 pm Said:
    The Dow Jones is r@cist!

    LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

  13. The Dollar Store is doing quite well too. And Job Lots.

  14. Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh! My hair is on fire! Why isn’t our President doing anything about this mess?

  15. The Dow is down. Hillary’s fault!

  16. I can’t do anything but lurk, I just want to cry.

  17. From Zsa Zsa’s place:

    Administration officials were greeted with sarcasm and laughter Monday night when they briefed lawmakers and congressional staff on Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner’s new financial-sector bailout project, according to people who were in the room.

    The laughter was at its height when Obama officials explained that the White House planned to guarantee a wide swath of toxic assets — which they referred to as “legacy assets” — but wouldn’t be asking Congress for money.

  18. Despite the forceful words, Geithner noted his office was still exploring options and details for an asset value program, with little answer on what to do about banks’ toxic assets.

    That last paragraph is basically at the crux of the problem
    _________________________________________

    If this is the crux of the problem, why is the administration not doing more about it? I find it hard to believe they don’t get it….do they want a depression?

  19. and this is better than ready on day one, how?

  20. I just saw a whole bunch of wonderful financial headlines that would seem to be a pretty loud no confidence vote ….

    Geithner …. leaves stocks cold, plan falls flat, dow skids 400, oil prices tumble

    Now, what impact will oil prices tumbling have on the oil producing countries and their stability?

  21. I’m still waiting to hear what exactly a comprehensive stress test for a bank… my guess half of the data they need to even do a decent spread analysis isn’t captured by most of them

  22. sam: deflation spiral and none of the SWFs will be able to buy our huge outstanding float or yet to come float of treasuries

  23. I just hope the Obama team can do a better job fundraising privately for Wachovia than they did for Hillary

  24. here’s more information on the TARP:

    http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/Treasury-Fed-unveil-15-trillion/story.aspx?guid={631940E0-DBD4-479C-B202-DE411A86535A}

  25. firlight2012, in short yes. The worse things are, the more power they can claim is needed to fix it. This has been the trademark of Obama’s rise. He always needed more power to actually do anything as in the next higher office. Now he has the highest office there is but he will still need more power. Desperate people give up their rights and dignity to eat.

  26. deflation spiral and none of the SWFs will be able to buy

    Single White Females?

  27. I am gonna run an ad at Craig’s List for a husband as a tax break only.

  28. dakinikat …. you know, prechildren I worked in the insurance industry … and can’t help but wonder about some of their investments in asset backed securities.

  29. myiq,

    Will you please put links in your comments? I don’t know who Zsa Zsa is.

  30. Isolde, on February 10th, 2009 at 3:14 pm Said:

    I am getting really suspcious because most of what I’m reading is talking about the need to fix the banks’ bad assets and help homeowners. The administration is not really doing things to effectively address those issues…so?

    Is it tinfoil Tuesday? :|

  31. Dakinikat,

    There is a Harvard prof. on CNN who doesn’t think any of this is going to work–especially the bad bank part.

  32. I don’t know who Zsa Zsa is

    Arianna Huff&Puff

  33. bb: Zsa Zsa = Ariana Huffington at HuffPo.

  34. Harvard guy isn’t a prof., he’s a senior lecturer. His name is Jeffrey A. MIron.

  35. What I like about this graph is the green line for July ‘74, and the red line for July ‘81, and yes the yellow one for ‘91
    The 1974 crisis took 18 months to get over, (I remember that-I was just out of college and looking for a job).

    The 1981 crisis took 30 months to get over (I remember that-I was just getting out of a relationship where we had worked together in the country making clothes, and once again I was looking for a job).

    BTW did I tell you I was also out of work for the July 91 crisis which lasted 32months (I had just had my son-he was 2years old and no-one would give me a job)

    I hate the way people tell you that the babyboomers were such an overprivileged set. It wasn’t as hard as for the previous generation, but there certainly was a lot of competition for jobs.

    This time the line is heading straight down fast-just as my son should be entering the work force (snark).

  36. SWF: Sovereign Wealth Funds

  37. bb: that’s what I think

  38. Laurie,

    I was lucky enough to be employed in ‘74 and ‘81, and I still felt both of them. This one is going to be in full swing as I start looking for a job. At least I have a job through the summer.

  39. That recessions graphic is fascinating. Funny, the yellow one baing called the “Bush/Clinton recession” (as in Poppy started it, Clinton ended it). But, yeah, I can see how much faster this one is going down!

  40. Also daki did you see this scary stuff that is embedded in the medical records part of this stimulus package. Uppity Woman has more over on NQ but this is what got my attention:

    Let’s take a look at what Tom Daschle and Barack Obama have planned for you in the ’stimulus” bill.

    Senators should read these provisions and vote against them because they are dangerous to your health. (Page numbers refer to H.R. 1 EH, pdf version).

    The bill’s health rules will affect “every individual in the United States” (445, 454, 479). Your medical treatments will be tracked electronically by a federal system. Having electronic medical records at your fingertips, easily transferred to a hospital, is beneficial. It will help avoid duplicate tests and errors.

    But the bill goes further. One new bureaucracy, the National Coordinator of Health Information Technology, will monitor treatments to make sure your doctor is doing what the federal government deems appropriate and cost effective. The goal is to reduce costs and “guide” your doctor’s decisions (442, 446). These provisions in the stimulus bill are virtually identical to what Daschle prescribed in his 2008 book, “Critical: What We Can Do About the Health Care Crises.” According to Daschle, doctors have to give up autonomy and “learn to operate less like solo practitioners.”

    Yes you read that right.

    Treatments will be “monitored” to make sure you don’t cost the government too much money if you are sick, Comrade.

  41. Dakinikat,

    The guy looked really depressed, seriously. Rick Sanchez didn’t take any of it in. He just kept switching away every time Miron said anything negative about the plan.

  42. The current market tumble is what happens when large investors wait to see how the administration proposes to solve and unsolvable problem. The rumor of a bold solution causes a runup in prices in advance of the announcement, and the inevitably underwhelming proposed solution sends prices back where they were.

    And so it goes….. with no end in sight.

  43. Way to go, Zero! I just lost over 5 grand.

    *If* Zero had done a REAL economy fixing plan I could have *made* some money back, but Noooooo, the MORANS* of this country had to elect one of their own again.

    God PLEASE let some ADULTS get back in the US government!!!!

    please?

    *misspelled on purpose.

  44. firlight2012, I have been suspicious of everything lately. I was not surprised that Dear Leader did not bother to go outside of his rather restricted circle of sycophants and get any advisers who were not hacks. Now we are seeing that they have been up to no good. This not really a conspiracy but rather the way things are done in Chicago where very little improves irregardless of how much is spent and the financial health of the city and state gets worse and worse.

  45. Jangles, on February 10th, 2009 at 3:28 pm Said:

    Also daki did you see this scary stuff that is embedded in the medical records part of this stimulus package. Uppity Woman has more over on NQ but this is what got my attention:
    *************
    I am waiting for another opinion…Betsy McCaughey is a political opportunist and was a lying POS about Hillary’s health care plan. If your health care has be rationed by your economic status, Betsy is not your friend.

  46. Pat Johnson, on February 10th, 2009 at 2:55 pm Said:

    I’ve been calling him Dear Leader from the beginning.

  47. if one more person I respect (Looking at you, Bernie Sanders!) says that this Stimulus Bill is not perfect but it’s something, I will personally find them and smack them in the face with a bag of marshmallows. It’s not the mallet I’d rather be hitting them with, but it’s something.

  48. Jangles, that stuff on Daschle’s personal philosophy regarding elders and “hopeless” cases is sick stuff. This needs to be known by the public and just pushing it though before anyone can object shows the integrity and morality of our Congressional leaders. In other words they do not have any and should be ashamed.

  49. Thank you, myiq.

  50. Jangles, as a doctor myself, what you just wrote about what is hidden in the bill re: medical records makes me ill.

    I have lots of room in my house down here in Australia if anyone wants to start a new life somewhere else. At least the government here has more effective ideas and plans about how to get out of this mess.

    Right now, though, I don’t think I’ll say anything about my hair being on fire.

  51. Isolde,

    Many of the Congressional leaders don’t know about the provisions, either. They probably haven’t even bothered to read it.

    Sen. Arlen Spector was once considered “hopelessly sick” with cancer, but received the best care and newest treatments.

  52. The S&P 500 is on track for its worst single-session performance since sliding 5.3% on Jan. 20. The Nasdaq is also on track for its worst performance since Jan. 20, when it fell 5.8%.

    January 20 was the most recent time that the markets discovered that the Obama team can’t wave a magic wand.

  53. Gail, you are right. I’m calling some Republicans since they are my reps and Senators. I did not vote for any of them but they have to listen to me anyway. I think I will e-mail the editor of the local rag and alert him also as the town I live in is a growing retirement area for a very large city. Health care for a large area is the majority employer here.

  54. dakinikat, thank you. have a pulsing headache listening to bernanke and geithner this afternoon, feeling more confidence slip away. attached below is hillary over four months ago, advocating for HOLC. isn’t there a chance she might have been right when she said:

    “If we do not take action to address the crisis facing borrowers, we’ll never solve the crisis facing lenders.”

    what if she’s right, as she usually is. what if addressing foreclosures and housing relief aggressively is the only way to: 1) help those in immediate need, and 2) begin providing some pricing benchmarks that will help define and liquify these toxic assets. geither’s plan is heavy on recruiting private investors (no clarity) and on feeding more capital to banks who pass this stress test (no clarity). top down, not bottom up. i’ll hang up and follow the discussion. thank you. (btw, TALF is more clear to me.)

    http://www.correntewire.com/hillary_on_holc_and_the_bailout_in_the_wsj

  55. John Cole has a lucid moment:

    So why exactly did team Obama rush out to make this announcement when it is pretty clear they are just making shit up as they go along?

  56. 3w: that’s what I’ve been saying for over a year near, both of those points …

  57. And so it goes.

    We are f$$$$$d

    Do you think this explosion in the markets will get through to Dear Leader and to his fawning press? But aren’t these Wall Street types and bank guys exactly the ones who put him in office.

    Daki: What do we need for the toxic assets? Does this mean we have no “bad bank”? Is this what the market was counting on and did not get? My understanding is that this was exactly the problem in Japan. They did huge infrastructure stimulus but they left there banks with toxic assets. Also true during the great depression. It turned a crash into a lost decade.

  58. this is also from market watch:

    “The market’s been built up for the last few weeks to this. When you anticipate something so much, it never lives up to expectations. That’s where we are,” said Joe Saluzzi, co-founder of Themis Trading. “Now [the selling] is going to feed on itself,” and it could “get vicious.”
    Saluzzi compared the scene at 11 a.m. EST, as traders waited for the announcement with their trigger-fingers at the ready to the famous floor-trading sequence in the movie, “Trading Places.” In that movie, as today, traders waited quietly for a crucial announcement, and then all hell broke loose. This time, however, the announcement concerned the future of the U.S. financial system, rather than frozen orange juice.

  59. three wickets,

    It would seem to be healthier for the banks to maintain a stream of payments on their mortgages (even if the payments aren’t as high as originally planned) than to allow so many homes to go into foreclosure, sit on the market for months and sell for a fraction of the outstanding loan balance.

    I’m not sure if I explained it as clearly as possible, but if a bank were expecting a $1,000 payment per month for 30 years, you would think $750 per month for 30 years would look better than $0 for however many months it would take the bank to sell the house at a substantial loss. The whole mass foreclosure route just seems like such a negative downward spiral to allow to happen.

  60. Jangles: They’ve proposed a ‘private’ solution to the bad assets. they’re expecting private investors to buy them up with no help from the US treasury. that’s why the laughter at the meeting last night.

  61. The marketwatch quote makes it sound like they knew it would be a selloff, no matter what he said.

  62. What I just don’t get is this thing isn’t new, it’s just more widespread than anything since the great depression.

    we’ve had toxic assets in the s&l crisis in the 80s, the farming biz in the 80s, and again back in the great depression with the HOLC, the japanese had this issue during the 90s with the asian financial crisis, I just read a comprehensive paper from the World Bank on what they’ve found works and doesn’t work based on all banking crisis in the world since the 1870s — i highlighted in post maybe 3 months ago along with Hillary’s plan that was adopted by mccain during his run … what is the problem? they can’t read? they don’t like learning from history?

  63. gail — I hear Ted Kennedy is pretty hopelessly sick with brain cancer — think he knows what is in the bill? See, they don’t care because they aren’t us — nothing in that bill is going to effect them (other than making them richer).

    New medical procedure — hopeless cases get a bullet in the back of the head. On second thought lets make that hopeless cases get a hanging instead — bullets cost money & we can keep on re-using the same rope. Yes, hanging — much more cost effective.

  64. The marketwatch quote makes it sound like they knew it would be a selloff, no matter what Geithner said.

  65. i’ve said this here since the first post i made, if we don’t put a bottom on the mortgage market (deal specifically with solving that problem), NOTHING is going to be solved and it’s only going to get worse.

  66. Someone or some entities are already on the “Buy” end. Being able to buy at such depressed prices puts them in a position to make “killings” and probably end up owning most of those assets. I wonder who they are. Probably the same ones who own the Federal Reserve Bank. This is the scariest part of all: that these entities buying up the depressed assets have friends in this administration and are able to plan their strategies way in advance. This would be INSIDER trading at its worst.

    The country is SOOOOO SCREWED.

  67. and I’ve been backing dakinikat ever since that first post — from my view (bk world) helping people stay in their homes/keeping those homes from going into foreclosure will do MORE to help the economy than anything else.

    Plus, as I’ve always said: it is the FAIR thing to do — if we are “saving” the fat cats, we should be “saving” the little guys too. I thought that was what the Dem Party was all about.

  68. You know, if we have to run every procedure through a cost benefit analysis, what is going to happen to innovation. The first time any new procedure is tried, it is most likely both expensive and risky. And, what will happen to the hope of those suffering from degenerative diseases. One of the hopes I had when Obama won, was that at least we could be optimistic about stem cell research. Now, I’m not so sure.

  69. Felizarte, on February 10th, 2009 at 4:15 pm Said:

    “Great fortunes can be made building civilizations but even faster fortunes can be made destroying civilizations.” ~ Rhett Butler, Gone With the Wind.

  70. MyIQ: What is Zsa’s Zsa’s place, and who is the author of the statement about people laughing at the B0 administration?

  71. angie: exactly, I have no problem with watching the speculators lose out, but we should be doing something to help families stay in their homes… that’s what a new HOLC would do, one of the reasons I came to support Hillary that and her UHC

  72. Nevermind, MyIQ. I just read the thread…

  73. I can’t help but think that perhaps this “economic crises” was contrived to benefit some big pockets. It has nothing “for the people” just a few people. It involved making sure Hillary does not get to be president; neither John McCain. Either one of them would have done something innovative to prevent it.

    Hillary proposed many things to terrified these entities by suggesting a few things: (1) moratorium on foreclosures (2) looking into all no-bid contracts, hedge-funds, (3) capping credit card and looking into other bank lending practices. (5) Universal Healthcare with all the safeguards. McCain would probably have done the same because these two at least were concerned with “the people.”

    As days go by, I am more and more convinced that this is really a sinister plot against most of the people.

    As

  74. i guess pritzker and buffett are going to be the source of the tarp funds now, and soros, they’ll get to buy distressed properties for obscenely low prices in back room deals at the treasury, that’s all I can figure out from this thing

  75. negoiate…

  76. No Quarter has a post that fits it with this one about the economy. A video of Go v Mark Sanford of NC and dem rep from NC chastising Axel Sally Pelosi and Lord HaHa Reid about the pkg .
    Many people seem to have enough sense to know that it will not work and will hurt the country in the long run. My question is why is it being shoved down the American peoples throats?
    Look at the heath care disasters put in to it. Especially the ones for seniors.

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS, AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  77. Color me jaded, but when the Carnival Barker in Chief says the circus is coming to town and it is going to be the baddest, biggest and best evah and the parade is led by St. Timothy of the Banks leading a sway-backed pony, a confused ferret and a toothless rabbit, it isn’t a day to get excited.

    It might even be a day to run to the hills hoping to find a nice cave to rehab when you hear the least it is going to cost is $2.0 trillion with the possibility of another $500 billion to help those who crapped in their mess kits cook up another meal.

  78. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/business/economy/10pension.html?_r=3&_r

    I didn’t see this yesterday … a proposal to shore up banks with public pension funds. Apparently the public pension funds are having problems getting high enough rates of return (they need about 8% to be able to pay future benefits) in this market.

  79. “dakinikat, on February 10th, 2009 at 4:12 pm Said:
    What I just don’t get is this thing isn’t new, it’s just more widespread than anything since the great depression.

    we’ve had toxic assets in the s&l crisis in the 80s, the farming biz in the 80s, and again back in the great depression with the HOLC, the japanese had this issue during the 90s with the asian financial crisis, I just read a comprehensive paper from the World Bank on what they’ve found works and doesn’t work based on all banking crisis in the world since the 1870s — i highlighted in post maybe 3 months ago along with Hillary’s plan that was adopted by mccain during his run … what is the problem? they can’t read? they don’t like learning from history?”

    Imo, the problem is they are crooks. They are not honest. They are not earnest. They can’t be told, because they are not interested in learning what works because what works is of no interest to them. They have a plan to screw the US to their own benefit, because they are crooks and that is what crooks do, and they implementing it. Don’t listen to what they say. Watch what they do.

  80. No offense but the 01 “Bush” recession started way back in 98, 99 during Clinton. Bush ended that with the tax cuts you hate. the 01 was a quick one due to 9-11 but it would have been worse if we didn’t have the tax cuts. This recession is a result of the housing mess from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and gov’t policy (not republican and totally socialist) forcing the lax standards on banks making them give loans to people who had no business owning homes. This resulted in arbitrary demand which is not good in a Capitalist society. Yes Bush spent too much (you have to take out the military spending and the spending to create a new Dept of Homeland because those are necessary and it’s been proven that military spending stimulats the economy -i.e. Great Depression) and that is no excuse. that is why the housing crash is affecting the gov’t and making it a mess. If he would have vetoed crap the gov’t wouldn’t be as bad off but that still wouldn’t mean the markets or people wouldn’t be stressed and losing. Point – we cannot shove socialism into capitalist society because it always fails. The new unqualified prez is taking us to socialism full on.

  81. What are any health things doing in this “stimulous “package. Why is creating a new government oversight department in this bill? What the hell does most of this have to do with job creation and stimulous? Am I just too stoopid to understand?

  82. firlight 2012 said: do they want a depression?

    Honestly, I’m beginning to think they just don’t care. I have no idea who or what is on their radar but it sure isn’t the welfare of this country and her citizens.

  83. B – no offense taken.

    However, you are 100% wrong on every point. I’m so tired of libertarian conservatives attempting to rewrite history to “prove” that “trickle-down” economics works.

    Fact: Trickle-down for past 8 years.
    Fact: Economy destroyed.
    Fact: Trickle-down prior to Great Depression.
    Fact: Great Depression.

    YOU.
    ARE.
    WRONG.

    Get OVER IT!!!!!!!!!!!

  84. celeste I have read in a couple of places that this so-called ’stimulus’ bill was created through Pelosi and Reid going to committee heads and saying “give us everything that you want that you haven’t been able to get.” So this monstrosity is loaded up with this and that and the other thing, every last congress critter’s wildest dreams and fantasies for special interests. The whole thing is an earmark. But since we aren’t supposed to be calling it an earmark, perhaps we can call it a mark-ear.

  85. Bush = “war” pResident
    BO = “financial savior” pResident

  86. “Plus, as I’ve always said: it is the FAIR thing to do — if we are “saving” the fat cats, we should be “saving” the little guys too. I thought that was what the Dem Party was all about.”

    Angie, don’t you know that’s old school thinking by bitter knitters?

  87. Fembot — LMAO — I guess I’m a stubborn old bitter knitter too boot — haven’t learned my lesson from the primaries!

  88. I think what we are all grappling with is that these people literally do not give a sh*t about 99% of America. Repub, Dem, it’s all pretty much the same, with a few exceptions.

    They treat us as if we are fans at a big SuperBowl between the R and D teams. It is our job to STFU, consume mass quantities, spend lots of time and money watching and “participating,” and cheer loudly and publicly for our side.

    Many of us were clueless enough to think that the Dem Party was different than the Repub Party before this past years brought us Obama. Now, we realize that the Clintons were the exception, not the rule, and that the Dems and Reps are the same players wearing different uniforms.

  89. The more I read about this health care thing, the scarier it gets. I want UHC, but I don’t want a system that decides that because my dad is 81 he shouldn’t get the bypass he needs because the cost divided by the number of years he might live doesn’t fit the cost effective model. And I will bet that Ted Kennedy’s health care won’t have to be run through that cost effective calculator.

  90. Is some of the polling information looking a little odd to anyone else? Based on Gallup polling (sorry, I didn’t copy a link) it seems as though 67% approve of the way Obama is handling the stimulus package, while less than half support the current package.

    Is it me, or does there seem to be a disconnect there. Perhaps people think Obama is doing a good job because everyone on tv keeps on telling them that he is (the pundits gave him an A on his performance last night, while the markets seem to be giving him and his team somewhat less).

  91. B: the tax cuts didn’t end that … the war spending did

  92. Is anyone else getting concerned that war spending might look like a pretty good way to get us out of this mess to those in power?

  93. I think you are correct madamab!

    they are truly one in the same. no difference.

    they do not care. they live in a bubble.

  94. B,

    Get a clue. When the government nationalizes banks and the auto industry, that’s socialism. That’s what Bush did. Now go find that clue, okay?

  95. madamab, on February 10th, 2009 at 4:59 pm Said:

    B – no offense taken.

    However, you are 100% wrong on every point. I’m so tired of libertarian conservatives attempting to rewrite history to “prove” that “trickle-down” economics works.
    **************
    In scanning non-bot blogs, the right wing concern tr0lls are throwing gas on the fires…tax cutsgood, “be scared, socialized medicine” etc.

  96. bostonboomer, on February 10th, 2009 at 5:19 pm Said:

    B,

    Get a clue. When the government nationalizes banks and the auto industry, that’s socialism. That’s what Bush did. Now go find that clue, okay?
    **************
    The Republican Party definition of free market economy…”Privatize the profits..Socialize the loses”..

  97. I’m with Felizarte. This entire thing is simply designed to cover up the biggest robbery in history, started in 2000 by those who brought us Bush II and continued by those who brought us Bush III (AKA Barack Obama).

  98. Celeste – the only sensible solution is single-payer health care. However, the health insurance industries don’t want it because it would bring down their profits (and maybe eventually put them out of business), and they have the most powerful lobby in Washington.

    So it goes. No single-payer for us here.

    I’m sorry but I’m incredibly depressed. I told all my “progressive” friends that Obama was a fascist. He is instituting Total Information Awareness (the one that Ashcroft wanted) through the engine of “health care reform” (i.e., computerized medical records). Once he knows everything about us, we will all be easy to control.

    The Nazis set up national databases right before the Holocaust. That’s how they knew who was Jewish, gay, Polish, etc.

    It CAN happen here.

  99. SHV,

    Do you know if the information provided at noquarter about the health czar is false? It seemed as though they were including quotes from Daschle’s book as well as the stimulus plan.

  100. I do not like the idea of computerized medical records either. as far as I understand madamab, there aren’t even any safeguards for our information.

    not that it would really matter, i guess.

  101. madamab, on February 10th, 2009 at 5:12 pm Said:
    —————————

    Took the words right out of my mouth….

  102. gxm17,

    I think they want the depression. They want a lot of us to die off quickly so they can have more more more. Once a lot of people die, they can scare the rest of us into accepting serfdom. And if we don’t accept it, that’s what the “FEMA camps” are for.

  103. The entire situation is bleak.

  104. bb, they do not want a middle class. believe it or not we still collectively hold more wealth than the singularly wealthy put together.

    they want two classes, rich/poor.

  105. Meanwhile, Michelle Obama has been photographed by Annie Leibovitz for the March cover of Vogue. The story says she is the second first lady to “grace” the cover, but they don’t bother to say who was the first.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/10/AR2009021001579.html?hpid=topnews

  106. heidi: very bleak, i’m really worried, i’m seeing numbers i’ve never seen before except when reading about the depression, the last few months we’ve surpassed the last bad time which was the first reagan term

  107. what about the ‘74 recession. please explain the graph, because 1974 looks worse.

  108. I just put up a post at Potpourri, Dak. Take a look would you and let me know if you think I should put up here now as a sort of sequel to yours…

  109. Krugman says the TARP plan may be ok and a trojan horse for nationalizing the banks:
    http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/the-rorschach-plan-wonkish-or-at-least-hard-to-read/

  110. madamab said “Many of us were clueless enough to think that the Dem Party was different than the Repub Party before this past years brought us Obama. Now, we realize that the Clintons were the exception, not the rule, and that the Dems and Reps are the same players wearing different uniforms.”

    Yeah. You said it. I’m maybe still in shock about it. But I’ll take reality any day, even if sometimes it tastes vile.

  111. Oh, guess what? The first first lady on the cover of Vogue was Hillary Clinton. Now why didn’t the Washington Post want us to know that?

    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D02E5DB163AF934A35751C1A96E958260

  112. 74: was bad, but had turned by this time

  113. and it was shock driven: oil shortage/prices, etxc.

  114. what was the time frame, it was more dramatic drop, but quite a dramatic recovery as well.

    We are what 1 year into this recession?

  115. you can really see why they call the bush recovery the jobless recovery in that graph

  116. Dear Leader is the term conffered on Kim Il Sung of North Korea….

  117. madamab, on February 10th, 2009 at 5:23 pm Said:

    The Nazis set up national databases right before the Holocaust. That’s how they knew who was Jewish, gay, Polish, etc.

    It CAN happen here.
    **************
    That was IBM…IBM pre-positioned data processing equipment a-head of the German Armies. The German’s used the occupied country’s census data and put it on IBM punch cards. The Germans paid their “rental fees” and punch card costs until the very end of the war.

  118. we’re over 1 year now

  119. bostonboomer, on February 10th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
    How totally, totally unsurprising.

  120. Well for once I am comsorted that the food rioters will most likely be well armed…Second amendment any one?

  121. taggles: the unemployment usually doesn’t end when the recession formally ends, it usually lags a lot, especially the last two recessions were slow to create new jobs, the unemployment lasted a lot longer than the previous ones even though (other than the reagan one) most of them were relatively short –like six months long.

  122. am, on February 10th, 2009 at 5:24 pm Said:

    SHV,

    Do you know if the information provided at noquarter about the health czar is false? It seemed as though they were including quotes from Daschle’s book as well as the stimulus plan
    ************
    No..but the source cited in all of the blog posts is no friend of medical care for all. She was a very vocal critic of the Clinton Plan and a lot of her scare tactics were show to be pure fabrication. Everthing she says may be correct but I am waiting for coments from more trusted sources. As I said earlier, right wing concern tr0lls are very active and they aren’t our friends.

  123. heidi: i’m just seeing the kim grandy post on potpourri

  124. looking at the graph it appears we have been through this before. There are other graphs that I have seen that are similar but using different indicators, not jobs, and it looks like a really bad recession like 74 or 81.

    To compare it to other years is not a fair representation of the stats.

    I am no expert, but this needs to play out a bit more. I am not ready to go screaming with my hair on fire quite yet.

    But I might just be in denial. Which is entirely possible.

  125. B, on February 10th, 2009 at 4:54 pm Said:
    No offense but the 01 “Bush” recession started way back in 98, 99 during Clinton.”

    I watched a C-Span round table of Republicans strategists when Bush was running against Gore, and they said they could spin that the economy was in recession because no one understands the economy so they could get away with it.

  126. I think when we reestablish constitutional rule we will need to clean house. Since I am opposed to the death penalty I think a special camp should be comprised for the Jerk weeds who lead us here. Surounded by high voltage fences.

    Maybe we could have Soros Madoff make little rocks from big rocks or just move rocks from one pile to another. We coould have all of them dig holes and then fill them up.

    It has been found that when intellegent people presented with unending repetitive and purposeless work it eventually drives the person doing the work to run at the fence and put themselves out of their misery.

    It solves our Jacka$$ disposal problem while keeping our conscious clear.

  127. taggles: hit the link on to delong and check out the stock returns graph, that will give you another series to look at … there’s also the industrial production index there … you’ll see more evidence out there, i didn’t want to load down the thread with graphs

  128. dak- it seems like this whole thing started with the dotcom collapse, followed by Bush and his deficit spending, lowered taxes, and war. Then things kind of artificially energized with the hyperinflated real estate boom and concomitant lending fiascos. Then, some of the over-leveraged were stuck with their pants down, and the foreclosure thing snowballed. People saw their assets dwindle, the stock market tanked and things have been spiraling down ever since. Is that an accurate, yet simplified synopsis? If so, this thing has been degenerating for a long time.

  129. I take a couple days off sick and Obama destroys what’s left of the economy. Can’t someone please find him something else to do besides speechify?

  130. He’s not flippin bold enough. It’s going to be a matter of too little, too late I can feel it deep in my insides.

    Did you look atr the unemployment trust fund stats I posted the other day dak?

    Over half of the states don’t have the money to pay out in unemployment in their trust funds if we hit a moderate to severe recession that lasts a year. Something like 4 states are already borrowing from the federal government this early into the recession.

    It makes the comments made about Social Security all the more ironic. You have funds that will be wiped out in a years time and then you have funds that could be wiped out in 12 years time, which would you consider the more urgent to shore up?

  131. Remember how long Bu$hit’s polls stayed up – it was mind boggling. It meant that 66% of the American voters were braindead. That depressed me then and scared me. May I suggest polls are manipulated as is the media hype of the best candidate evah, best
    speech giver evah – swack! These people are coming off 8 years of feeding total pure manure to the public – it’s the same group, only it does seem like even the Dem party “leaders” have joined this criminal group. Not seems – they have. Dem no longer stands for anything resembling what I joined a couple decades ago and what I truly believe in. I find myself using the same words to describe them as I did for the Rethugs – vile, criminal, base, liars, thugs, greedy, shallow – damn I’m sick of pounding my head on the wall. Please let me wake up from this horriffic nightmare and find Hillary Clinton in office and Bill Clinton being treated like the best President we have had in decades as he deserves. Sigh

  132. I know I am nuts, but I wading through the bill, all zillion pages of it. I just read the part about the Accountability and Transparency Board that is going to oversee all of this spending.
    Everything is going to be transparent because the bill establishes a Accountability and Transparency Board AND an Independent Advisory Panel to make sure that the money is spent right, etc. Keep reading and you find out that both boards are made up solely of people appointed by the president. Well, that comforts me as I am sure it comforts you.

  133. lol fuzzybear – I loooove your idea!

  134. Has Barack Obama’s presidency already failed?

    Wolf of the FT on the TARP:

    http://tinyurl.com/dcq2vw

  135. that link explains why wolf thinks obama’s TARP will fail

  136. Of course I would never ever condone incarseration without due process and habeaus corpus!

  137. What is needed? The answer is: focus and ferocity. If Mr Obama does not fix this crisis, all he hopes from his presidency will be lost. If he does, he can reshape the agenda. Hoping for the best is foolish. He should expect the worst and act accordingly.

    Yet hoping for the best is what one sees in the stimulus programme and – so far as I can judge from Tuesday’s sketchy announcement by Tim Geithner, Treasury secretary – also in the new plans for fixing the banking system.

  138. another quote:

    Yet why does a new administration, confronting a huge crisis, not try to change the terms of debate? This timidity is depressing. Trying to make up for this mistake by imposing pettifogging conditions on assisted institutions is more likely to compound the error than to reduce it.

  139. Hey Dak, thanks for looking. I decided to put up a slightly modified version of the post (don’t know why it isn’t showing up for you at Potpourri yet (typepad glitch?), upstairs here, with a cross-reference to your post and a break so that your’s isn’t bounced from visibility upon arrival here at the site.

  140. I think my church lady mom is correct. She thinks Obama can’t fix the crisis because it is above his pay grade.

  141. Fuzzy, actually Kim Il Sung was the “Great Leader” and his son the current figurehead Kim Jong Il is the “Dear Leader” – not that it matters much, both cookoo tyrants who make the cookoo current tyrant of Uzbekistan look almost normal. Probably the last female head of state who could be described as an omnipotent ruler was Catherine the Great, and she was very sane and very capable, imo. Just had some problems getting on with the Cossacks from the Ukraine.

  142. looks good heidi!

    Do remember that the Golden Gate and the hoover dam were built because Hoover tried to use infrastructure projects against the depression, right? That was part of your part F

  143. Dakinikat-Irony that it is called TARP…

    I remember all the Blue TARPS on people’s roofs from P-cola to Galveston Texas after Ivan Katrina and Rita…..they were the symbol of the failure of a nation that could not pull itself through a natural disaster.

    I gues this TARP will fail, ast a monument to a nation that would not oer come a man made disaster!

  144. lol, fuzzy: good analogy, those things didn’t stand up to much wind or rain either!

  145. crap three wickets you are right I get the two kims mixed up all the time because I am still convinced they are clones of the same guy!

    If anyone trys to clone Pampers Obama I swear I will personally remove their head from their body!

  146. mom had a TARP sceduled to be put on her roof but her roofer came out fast aand fixed the ridge vent which had come off so she did not need a TARP.

    She says she doesnt need one (a TARP) now either!

  147. God, one more of these kinds of headlines and i just am going to live in a bottle of bourbon.

    US wholesale inventories falls by record 1.4%

  148. MadamaB wrote:

    I told all my “progressive” friends that Obama was a fascist. He is instituting Total Information Awareness (the one that Ashcroft wanted) through the engine of “health care reform” (i.e., computerized medical records). Once he knows everything about us, we will all be easy to control.

    The Nazis set up national databases right before the Holocaust. That’s how they knew who was Jewish, gay, Polish, etc.

    It CAN happen here.

    Could that be why Obama wants control of the census by the White House? I was thinking it was about redistricting. Maybe not.

  149. Somebody also needs to lets his jackass economic team in on the idea that the private sector is not going to be providing a solution that is going to benefit the country. This idea that some investors are going to ride in on a white horse and save the American economy is absurd. What is going to happen is what has happened thus far people are going to take advantage. Citigroup is going to get a ballpark, Bank of America luxury box for the superbowl, AIG a bunch of payouts etc, etc. Enough already with extending a hand to the private sector.

    Freeze foreclosures already(tell the “investors” to suck it up) and reassess property values. Let everyone see where they stand. They also could stand to figure out a way to give people(and I mean everyone) a housing credit.

    Job creation is going to be tougher. How do you get jobs back without screwing up trade agreements and a global economy already precariously on the edge?

  150. Dakinikat-

    don look at utility output for the last 2 quarters it will really drive you mad…

    Electric generation is down 6% in the US compared to last year! (numbers adjusted seasonally and for conservation!)

    Utilities are expecting a 10% decline in demand by summer!

  151. For non economist utility demand is usually static in a recession not declining but not growing a 6-10% decline in a years time is HUGE! right Dakinikat?

  152. Despite that “decline in demand” prices for utilities have gone up. Last year we got a bill that said due to the light winter usage they were going to be raising rates…….If people are just going to be charged more for consuming less then why would they bother consuming less? This tear we got stuck with a 17 percent increase. Theyy were hoping for 22. We still haven’t got our credit for when they overcharged us. For some strange reason there isn’t any rule that prohibits them from charging you at the increase they want for months before they get the approval.

    Grrrrrrrrrrrrr.

  153. Dakinikat,

    Was there a TARP in 2007? Is that misprint in the Wolf article? He sounds just like Krugman. It’s not big enough and making it too big is better than too small. What are we going to do? Will we end up like Iceland?

  154. I thought Dear Leader was the name of the dictator in 1984? I don’t have a copy to check.

  155. The worst part is watching the trainwreck. It isn’t big enough now and everyday that goes by makes the matter worst. The timing is off. The infrastructure shoulda, woulda, coulda been in the works months ago. The merry free marketers wanted everyone to have checks though(banging my head against a desk).

  156. so America is in the shitter the problem is that we are going to take the rest of the world with us if we dont get things moving here quick.

    Screw the trade agreements a economically wounded america does no one any good!

  157. fuzzy: yes huge …

  158. Cwaltz -

    Utilities have huge capital outlays and that is usually with borrowed money most towns like mine dont have $ 500 million to build a plant if usage is not sustained then the fixed costs are passed to customers in higher rates or in our case a smaller transfer to the general fund of our city that owns us.

    We are not raising rates because of declines in consumption we have alot of cheep coal power and we can sell it to those gas burning utilities around us!

    Still you have a point the bond intrest has to be paid and the consumer foots the bill.

  159. I didnt know if you knew the utility numbers thought I would share. all those Natural Gas burning Utilities are getting killed.

    their cost analysis on competitveness was based on $ 2.50 per 1000 cu/ft gas it was as high as $ 15.00 per 1000 cu/ft and even in the current market it closed arounf $ 4.47 per 1000 cu/ft.

    Coal never rose much and is now declining along with the other energy markets.

    Utilities produce 40% of our greenhouse gases automobiles about 40% rest of industry and agriculture about 20%…FYI.

  160. fuzzy

    they kept the buy American steel provision in the bill from what I understand but softened it by saying we can’t violate trade agreements which pretty much means we can’t show favoritism to American companies and round and round we go. Congress wants to have its cake and eat it too.

  161. I wonder why if utilities are pretty much powered by localities that instead of passing “tax cuts” the state doesn’t pay the bond interest with excess revenue? It seems that would be smarter.

  162. fuzzy

    That’s interesting stuff. My husbands company is heavily dependant on coal consumption(railroad). They slowed down December/January (they usually do)but business has sped up recently. They laid off about 30 so far. I suspect if what you are saying is correct there may be another round of layoffs.

  163. I am betting that come 2011, the country would have seen enough suffering that they will even entertain the idea of Jeb Bush for president in the republican party. Even now, I’m sure Karl Rover is busy doing stuff under the radar and Papa Bush and his Carlyle Investment Group will have enough money to buy yet another presidency for a Bush. That is why Steele is chaiman of the GOP. Papa Bush has already stated that he would like to see Jeb in the White House.

  164. Jeb Bush as GOP nominee in 2011 is another reason Hillary could not be president in 2009. Jeb would have had to wait until 2016 and Papa Bush is not that young anymore.

  165. One of my recurring tropes: I’ve survived two Republican recessions (lost my job both times), and am about to endure a third, and people ask me why I’m a Democrat.

    Problem is, this particular Democrat–unlike Bill Clinton, whose presidency assured that even someone like me with few “marketable” skills could pick and choose from well-paid job offers, or Lyndon Johnson, whose Great Society gave my father a college education, a housing loan, and a lifelong career doing work he loved–doesn’t seem to be cut from real Democratic cloth. I knew that of course, which is why I didn’t vote for him…but I honestly thought, and hoped, and prayed, that once the chips were down he would LISTEN to smart people and actually help the country. I guess I was wrong.

  166. Good if VERY scary reading here from Paul Craig Roberts, a former Reaganite (yes, I know but he was one of the smart ones!) turned antiwar libertarian.

    Among other things, he marshals pretty strong evidence that the actual unemployment figures are vastly underestimated and that

    “In other words, without all the manipulations of the data, the US unemployment rate is already at depression levels.”

    He also says that fixing infrastructure is not the panacea it’s held out to be and that the country needs to focus on manufacturing and exports — same argument I heard an economist make on Joe Scar this morning:

    “Much of US infrastructure is in poor shape and needs renewing. However, infrastructure jobs do not produce goods and services that can be sold abroad. The massive commitment to infrastructure does nothing to help the US reduce its huge trade deficit, the financing of which is becoming a major problem. Moreover, when the infrastructure projects are completed, so are the jobs.

    “At best, assuming Mexican immigrants do not get most of the construction jobs, all Obama’s stimulus program can do is to reduce the number of unemployed temporarily.

    “Unless US corporations can be required to use American labor to produce the goods and services that they sell in American markets, there is no hope for the US economy. No one in the Obama administration has the wits to address this problem. Thus, the economy will continue to implode. ”

    And Roberts also notes this tidbit:

    “To whose agenda is President Obama being hitched? Writing in the English language version of the Swiss newspaper, Zeit-Fragen, Stephen J. Sniegoski reports that leading figures of the neocon conspiracy–Richard Perle, Max Boot, David Brooks, and Mona Charen–are ecstatic over Obama’s appointments. They don’t see any difference between Obama and Bush/Cheney. ”

    Nice, eh? Read the whole thing, it’s excellent but devastating. From the venerable Counterpunch:

    http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts02092009.html

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