One of the things they teach in law schools is how to parse language in order to determine exact meanings. This is a necessary skill because lawyers have to figure out what statutes mean (and whether they have been broken) as well as draft enforceable contracts and wills.
One time back when I was drudging my way through my juris doctorate, I gave my nephew a ride to do some yard work for my mom, and afterwards I discovered he left his dad’s weedwhacker in my trunk. I needed my trunk for something else at that moment, so I put the weedwhacker in my garage.
Later that day I ran into my nephew and his dad, and my nephew asked “Is our weedwhacker in your trunk?” Being a habitual smart-ass I simply replied “No it’s not” (which was technically true) and waited.
My nephew looked confused and started to walk away when his dad (who is well aware of my smart-ass proclivities) said “Now ask him if he knows where it is.”
One of our recent trollish visitors said this during his brief existence here:
“Again, what is it about the fact that Fitzgerald said that Obama is in no way connected to this scandal that confuses you?”
That statement is laughable because Obama is obviously connected to the scandal, even if he is completely innocent of any wrongdoing. But that’s not what Fitzgerald said. He’s an attorney, and what he very carefully said was:
“There’s no reference in the complaint to any conversations involving the President-elect or indicating that the President-elect was aware of it, and that’s all I can say.”
Fitzgerald isn’t telling us what evidence they have, he’s only telling us what information they used in the complaint. He may or may not have additional evidence, but he’s neither confirming nor denying its existence.
So when you listen to or read some of the statements being made by the players in this latest Obamadrama, parse the words carefully.
If Obama says “I have never spoken to the governor on this subject” his statement literally means that he personally did not have verbal communications directly with the governor on that specific topic.
It does not rule out written communications, indirect communications through staff or others, or communications on other topics.
So your homework assignment is to parse this:
“I have never spoken to the governor on this subject. I am confident that no representatives of mine would have any part of any deals related to this seat. I think the materials released by the U.S. attorney reflect that fact,” Obama said at a Chicago news conference. “I’ve asked my team to gather the facts of any contacts with the governor’s office about this vacancy so that we can share them with you over the next few days.”
“I have not been contacted by any federal officials, and we have not been interviewed by them,” Obama said. “As is reflected by them, we were not perceived by the governor’s office as amenable to any deal-making.”
Filed under: General
Oops, I was down below still commenting about change.gov. What a joke that place is.
Agree, myiq – this Blago case is showing Barack as a liar. What is interesting to me is all the internet scrubbing that is going on. Even on the change.gov site that BB referred us to, the obot internet gurus appear to be attempting to scrub certain questions by deeming them inappropriate.
To add: I actually pointed out the specific details of the wording by Fitz yesterday to people here who are already buying into the media lie that BO had nothing to do with Blago. Fascinating how fast the media turned it but you have appropriately parsed, myiq.
Okay, let me give it a try:
“I have never spoken to the governor on this subject. I am confident that no representatives of mine would have any part of any deals related to this seat.”
—————No parsing here – he’s flat-out lying.
“I think the materials released by the U.S. attorney reflect that fact,” Obama said at a Chicago news conference.
—————He is not claiming the materials actually reflect that fact. He is saying he “thinks” they do.
“I’ve asked my team to gather the facts of any contacts with the governor’s office about this vacancy so that we can share them with you over the next few days.”
—————He just said that he was “confident” there was no contact, and that’s what the investigation will discover. However, if contact is confirmed, he can say “Rahm is not the man I knew.”
“I have not been contacted by any federal officials, and we have not been interviewed by them,” Obama said. “As is reflected by them, we were not perceived by the governor’s office as amenable to any deal-making.”
—————-He does not say that he himself has not contacted any federal officials. He also does not explain how the governor knew he was not amenable to any deal-making.
He’s not nearly as good at this as Bill and Hillary.
Fitz sounds like a mighty smart attorney and prosecutor to me. He’s not going to overstate his case or make sensational statements about a president-elect.
(Yeah yeah yeah, barry’s not technically the president-elect until the electors actually *elect* him, but being strictly accurate about these details is an increasingly lost cause).
Feels like the middle of the night – just myiq and scrubs holding court.
Myiq, don’t you think it is odd that Fitz has not asked Obama or his staff to come in and give an interview? Wouldn’t this suggest he is targeting Obama? Isn’t the prosecutors MO to work their way up the chain to their intended target?
The complaint against Blago contains info about issues other than the Senate seat. Obie didn’t comment about those. Then, there’s also very likely info on tape that’s not in the complaint at all. Obie obviously didn’t deny that, either. Rezko and Blago both have info, and are now, both in trouble. If they know anything about anybody, they have pretty good reasons to tell it now.
Isn’t $4,500 bail pretty low?
Nice picture of PEBO assaulting SOS, with aide Carville
http://pumapac.org/2008/12/11/gropergate-day-7/
Fitzgerald blog site
Send him your words of encouragement:
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=18142441&postID=8617749341278957487&page=1
“I have never spoken to the governor on this subject. I am confident that no representatives of mine would have any part of any deals related to this seat.”
Madamab:
Notice the change from “I have never” to “I am confident”
How does he define:
“representatives of mine” (does that include friends or just paid employees?)
“any part of any deals” (does that include negotiators or just the parties to the agreement?)
“this seat” (the only seat he currently holds is “President-elect”)
I think they’re working on Senate candidate #5 today.
myiq: I find the switches between the 1st person singular and the 1st p. plural to be interesting. Why change from one to the other within a sentence? He’s distinguishing himself from his representatives, particularly in that last bit. ““I have not been contacted by any federal officials [....]” suggests that others of his team may have been.
Obama might be parsing language as any competent attorney might, but he seems to be little more than an average-to-good attorney. He could be way out of his depth with someone like Fitzgerald.
The weed whacker story reminds me of a time I was out having a beer with my late brother. We were having a chat with a couple Republicans who were insisting that Democrats’ hatred of Republicans was irrational. My brother countered that he had deep feelings for Ronald Reagan, so much so that, when Reagan was shot, my brother prayed for him. This touching statement made the Republicans pause and begin to admit they might be wrong. That is until I started chuckling and said, “He’s not telling you (b)what(/b) he prayed for!”
Oh shucks, I meant to bold the word, “what”.
what
Mawm:
Obama said “I have not been contacted” and “we have not been interviewed.”
That doesn’t mean that his office wasn’t contacted, or if they were asked but declined to be interviewed.
myiq – Hmmmmm! Verrrry interesting! Really, there is a lot of wiggle room in that statement.
And Cinie, that is a great point. Was he asked about anything other than the Senate seat? Probably not – the Obamedia helps him out any way they can.
I can smell the panic in Chicago all the way here in New York!
Myiq – suppose Obama were indicted after the electors made their decision on 12/15. Who would then be President and VP – Biden and Pelosi?
janicen – LOL!
I remember when RR was shot. I was only in 8th grade, but let’s just say I was not a big fan.
I’m not leaving any of my IP footprints on that Obot site.
Oh, sh!t, madamab. What a thought — Biden and Peloser! Ugh.
Won’t she have to be re-elected as Speaker in January? How does that work? Are there any likely competitors?
Whenever a prosecutor or detective says something like “He is not a suspect, he is a person of interest” there is a very good reason.
When cops question “suspects” they have to mirandize them first.
Also, if a prosecutor alleges things in a complaint, they have to turn over to the defense the evidence they have relating to that allegation.
Myiq – suppose Obama were indicted after the electors made their decision on 12/15. Who would then be President and VP – Biden and Pelosi?
I don’t speak for myiq (just throw an occasional surprise party at night), but he knows you can indict a ham sandwich, the man indicted is presumed innocent, and even a criminal conviction would not remove a president from office; only impeachment or resignation would do that.
The order of succession is veep, speaker, pres pro tem senate, sos, etc.
If something happens to the President (death or incapacity) the VP moves up and the House picks a new VP.
If both the Pres and VP were killed (say in a plane crash) then the Speaker of the House moves up and the House picks a new Speaker and VP
Fitzgerald has a blog? Is that thing real?
Parse this, barry!
http://www.doctorzebra.com/Prez/a_amendment25.htm
“I have never spoken to the governor on this subject. I am confident that no representatives of mine would have any part of any deals related to this seat.”
A rep of mine has spoken to the gov on this subject. They did not finalise a deal
“I’ve asked my team to gather the facts of any contacts with the governor’s office about this vacancy so that we can share them with you over the next few days.”
so that we can SCRUB them from you ….
“I have not been contacted by any federal officials, and we have not been interviewed by them,”
we have been contacted
jules – teh google is not my friend today…anyone else?
Thanks folks…I was wondering if Hillary could still be VP, leaving her free to run for President in 2012.
MB HAKA
Madamab-is this the job you were waiting for so long?
Frankly, the statement says a whole lotta nothing. If it is later discovered there is evidence that his staff had contact with the Gov or it is proven that Obama had contact, Obama will be appalled and disappointed at his staff and throw out a WORM to explain what he really meant concerning the “contact.”. May be he just misspoke like Axelrod did. LOL!
Looks like the same playbook as the NAFTA/Canada lies of the primaries.
In moderation — I don’t know what the forbidden word is that put me in moderation prison.
Any one notice Rahm has been noticably absent from press conferences and things for the last few days?
just a random thought …
and a put up a new thread
This reminds me so much of Bush saying he was confident that no one in his administration was involved in outing Valerie Plame. Do they all hire the same speechwriters?
Thanks for getting me out of prison so quickly!
Laurie – yes – but it’s undergone some permutations.
I am supposed to be here for a very short project and then they hope to keep me on for more work. Thanks for asking!
I’ll have a crack at it:
“I have never spoken to the governor on this subject.” As you have noted before, this means he hasn’t spoken to the governor on the subject. But since I wasn’t at the newsconference, I don’t know what subject he was referring to. The indictment? His senate seat? The compensation for his senate seat? Details, details.
“I am confident that no representatives of mine would have any part of any deals related to this seat.” Well, confidence is one thing but knowing for sure is something else altogether. Maybe they agreed to a certain degree of plausible deniability. And what does he mean about “representatives of mine”? Does he know of other people’s representatives who might be a part of it? Maybe the people who have had deals related to the seat were not official representatives of the Office of the President Elect. Journalists just never do their jobs anymore.
“I think the materials released by the U.S. attorney reflect that fact,”
Yes, the materials that Fitzgerald has released don’t say much of anything regarding his or his official representatives but that doesn’t mean the materials won’t reflect it in the future.
Obama said at a Chicago news conference. “I’ve asked my team to gather the facts of any contacts with the governor’s office about this vacancy so that we can share them with you over the next few days.”
They will look at the schedule and will be badgered to reveal whether there were any meetings but they will get their stories straight ahead of any conversations with the press. There will probably be an “ongoing investigation” to which they will refer- religiously.
“I have not been contacted by any federal officials, and we have not been interviewed by them,” Obama said.
The qualifier “federal” only means that no one in a federal capacity. I don’t know whether this is a feint or not. Fitzgerald is a US attorney which implies federal but maybe he is seen as belonging to the state of illinois. No clue really. But is there a possibility that someone from Fitz’s unit might not be attached to him directly or be considered a federal official? How about contact from a lawyer? Has he heard from Rezko or Blagojevich’s lawyers or their associates regarding the matter? The use of the passive voice in “we have not been interviewed by them” is an interesting flag. When someone is trying to deflect reposnisibility they tend to use the passive voice. Or it could mean that Obama is taking a more objective, distant view of what is going on. Or it could mean that they were interviewed but not by a federal official. It doesn’t preclude such interviews from happening in the future.
“As is reflected by them, we were not perceived by the governor’s office as amenable to any deal-making.” Well, this is curious. There is another use of the passive voice. Maybe it is a pattern with Obama. It does seem like he doesn’t like to take responsibility but in this case, he seems to be relieving Fitz’s office of responsibility. Or is he refering to the governor’s office in the first part of the sentence? It’s confusing. Ahh, maybe that is the reason for the passive voice. One can’t tell for sure that the actor is the US Attorney’s office or the governor’s office. The second part of the sentence is more clear. The governor’s office did not perceive Obama’s office as being amenable to deal making. That doesn’t mean that Obama wasn’t amenable. It’s just that the governor’s *office* did not perceive it to be. As to the governor himself, there may be quite a different perception. It sounds to me like Blago thought that everyone has his price and that he simply hadn’t found Obama’s yet. But overall, the last sentence is the one that makes me the most uneasy. To me and my fevered imagination, Obama is relying on the power of narrative and the stupidity of Obots that since Fitz hasn’t implicated him in the complaint that this must mean that the governor didn’t think Obama could be solicited. I don’t think we have enough data to draw that conclusion. Past instances of Obama’s corruption suggest that he is certainly capable of making an offer whether directly or indirectly. So, time and data will tell.
So, how’d I do?
grayslady: like i can’t talk about an ongoing investigation … and all that careful word usage? Yup, Scooter Emmanual is likely to get caught up in a few things here.
“I’ve asked my team to gather the facts of any contacts with the governor’s office about this vacancy so that we can share them with you over the next few days.”
RD:
Key words – “asked” not “ordered”
“team” – how does he define this word?
“share” – will he give some and keep some?
Frequently contracts, regulations and statutes will include definitions of what certain words mean and don’t mean in order to remove any ambiguity.
When Obama says “my team” is he referring to his transition team, his campaign team or to all his friends and supporters too?
dakinikat, I see you remember some of the classic lines, as well. I also think it is going to be Emmanuel who falls on his sword, just like Libby. I’ve seen this movie before, and the ending is always the same–no one ends up paying the piper.
myiq: good catch. The impression I got from that sentence was that they were not going to be revealing anything but the barest facts.
Overall, the whole passage is quite damning. If he had nothing to do with it why not come right out and say so? Something like. “Neither myself, my official representatives, nor anyone else with direct or indirect ties to us has in any way made any kind of deal with the governor of Illinois, Milorod Blagojevich, regarding the appointment of my successor to my US senate seat. The US Attorney has not found that I am involved because there was no involvement. His investigation will completely exhonerate me and my official associates and anyone else with direct or indirect ties to us. We did not nor did we ever plan to bribe the governor regarding the Senate seat. Period.”
I mean, that would be kinda definite, right? But that isn’t what he said, is it? Instead, he left huge holes in defense. We just have to see if they were thorough enough with the plausible deniability and the distancing.
And Blago was heard talking about Emmanuel’s district replacement as part of the deal, so he’s in the mix somewhere
Here is my attempt, having worked for attorneys for 20 years:
“I have never spoken to the governor on this subject. I am confident that no representatives of mine would have any part of any deals related to this seat.
He hasn’t spoken directly to Blag, but he may have sent faxes, emails, or notes. Someone close to him may have.
They probably knew about the deals and this subject was mentioned during the conversation with someone other than Obama, through the above-stated correspondence, but they knew of the investigation and softly backed away.
“I think the materials released by the U.S. attorney reflect that fact,” Obama said at a Chicago news conference.
Like Madamab said, he thinks and also the materials reflect that. That is – the materials that have been released as of today’s date. may be more material, it just hasn’t been released yet.
“I’ve asked my team to gather the facts of any contacts with the governor’s office about this vacancy so that we can share them with you over the next few days.”
Let’s hope this shit dies down somewhat, see what the press and others can dig up and my team and I will address only what I have to address.
“I have not been contacted by any federal officials, and we have not been interviewed by them,” Obama said. “As is reflected by them, we were not perceived by the governor’s office as amenable to any deal-making.”
The feds haven’t called yet, they may, but for now, no news is good news. But the hammer may fall yet. Not Perceived Listen to the transcript dummies Blag said if we didn’t pay, we didn’t play. SO see, that means we weren’t amenable, but it doesn’t say we didn’t know about it.
How did I do?
myiq2xu,
This is fascinating. I posted yesterday about Fitzgerald clearly not exonerating Obama, but I didn’t catch as many nuances in Obama’s ragtime responses as you did. Excellent work!! We are so lucky to have you.
This kind of parsing (not to mention the entire electoral campaign) is what led me to such deep cynicism of our political system — that is, the exposure to years of working near a Capitol full of untrustworthy legislators and around the often equally tricky lawyer-lobbyists.
But with all of the eagle eyes on this site, Obama may yet be exposed!
If it happens before the inauguration by some miracle, would Bush pardon him?
You did very well Kim!
what I do not understand is why they are saying that he never talked to Blago about this when Axlehood and many many news articles said that he did so several weeks ago.
It would be okay for him to tell Blago that he favors certain candidates but instead of saying “yeah I talked to him, but wouldn’t offer anything”…he lies and says he never talked to the guy.
What is up with that?
The “I am confident” part is no doubt an indication that whoever talked to Blago on Obo’s behalf will promptly find himself/herself thrown under the bus.
I also like the “were were perceived by the Governor’s office”, which is not the same as saying “were wanted no part of a deal”.
You know, he has never said, “Yeah, that corrupt bastard offered me a bribe and I told him to get the hell out of my office!” Nope, not once. He just feints and lies and denies.
Michelle did it.
CONTRADICTION AND CULPABILITY that I don’t think have been noted:
“I have never spoken to the governor on this subject. I am confident that no representatives of mine would have any part of any deals related to this seat. I think the materials released by the U.S. attorney reflect that fact,”
The materials “reflect that fact” refers to Blago saying that all B.O. would promise him was to show his “appreciation” were he to appoint B.O.’s choice to replace him. It follows, that he or his “representatives” were approached with the bribe and declined. And at minimum, his representatives disclosed the bribe attempt to B.O., else there was nothing for him to decline. BUT IF HE?THEY WERE APPROACHED, IT WAS HIS?THEIR OBLIGATION TO BLOW THE WHISTLE and they/he did not. So he is at the very least guilty of not reporting that the governor was about to appoint someone US senator so long as they met his bribe demands!
Jules I am late posting today, but wanted to acknowledge your comment. As an attorney ( and I make no claims to anything beyond “average to good” myself ) I’ve been waiting and hoping for someone to notice this. Obama is smart, yes, but I believe he falls into the “average to good ” range as a lawyer. Not brilliant.
If you want brilliance, call in the Big Dawg. I learn something everytime I listen to Big Dawg.
myiq:
I posted this earlier, but I’m curious about your take on it:
“I should make clear, the complaint makes no allegations about the president-elect whatsoever,” Fitzgerald said. “We make no allegations that he’s aware of anything, and that’s as simply as I can put it. . . .
“There’s no reference in the complaint to any conversations involving the president-elect or indicating that the president-elect was aware of it. And that’s all I can say.”
Legal experts said it was unusual for a prosecutor to make such a blanket statement while an investigation was continuing.
“That carries a great deal of weight,” said Jan Witold Baran, a Washington lawyer who represents politicians on ethical complaints and campaign finance matters. “It is really unusual for a U.S. attorney to say someone is not implicated.
“Could evidence pop up in the future to the contrary? Sure, it’s possible. Is it likely? I think that, based on what he said yesterday, the answer is no,” Baran added.
That’s from WAPO
fif:
Baran is full of shit.
Fitz did not say “we possess no evidence against the president-elect” or “we have exonerated the president-elect of wrongdoing.”
Fitz may or may not have evidence against Obama, but if he does he’s not admitting it.
But he’s not denying it either.
fif,
Fitzgerald very deliberately didn’t say whether Obama is implicated or not, but he mentioned the “President-elect” 45 times in the criminal complaint. He mentions an Obama advisor being an intermediary to Blagojevich. He has not cleared Obama. Just the fact that he hasn’t spoken to Obama is very telling. He will try to get Blago to talk and Blago can give up Obama if he wants to. So can Rezko.
RD — just so you can know a U.S. Attorney does not belong to the state in any way — s/he is under the auspices of the federal government — no wiggle room there, even for Obama.
hey angie ! Obama really has his foot in the poopie pile tonight!
Poor guy this reaping what you sow stuff must really suck for him…
Maybe the MSM set him up so he could fall and they could tear him apart!
I thought we were going to call him bag o’ chips
“I should make clear, the complaint makes no allegations about the president-elect whatsoever,” Fitzgerald said. “We make no allegations that he’s aware of anything, and that’s as simply as I can put it. . . .
Anyone who takes this to mean that Fitzgerald is a moron & the fact that he says “that’s as simply as I can put it” shows that he thinks they are all morons too. This is an indictment against Blago, not Obama — the allegations are against Blago not Obama — there would be no reason in the world for an indictment against Blago to contain allegations against Obama. Notice how the other players are identified by number, not name? That is because they are not being indicted — only Blago is being indicted. This isn’t even legalize “parsing” — it is 1+1 = 2.
Let me explain it like this: say you are crossing the street and a car hits you. You are taken to the hospital and the doctor commits malpractice. You know have two claims: the lawsuit against the driver of the car and a lawsuit against the doctor. The complaint you file against the driver of the car would not have allegations against the doctor.* The complaint you file against the doctor would not have allegations against the driver of the car.
*there may be certain limited circumstance that would require you to mention the malpractice by the doctor as part of your proof of damages, but that is not related to what we are talking about here. Also, for convenience you may sue both the doctor & the driver in one complaint, but that isn’t the issue we are talking about here — your claims would be against each individual tortfeasors.
EEK! My first sentence should say:
Anyone who takes this to mean what Baran says it does is a moron & the fact that Fitzgerald says . . .
Count me in as another lawyer who has never been impressed with Obama’s legal skills. Fitzgerald’s carefully constructed remarks run rings around Obama’s clumsily crafted obfuscations.
I rarely even think of Obama as a lawyer, but when I do, I’m reminded of that old aphorism: “Those who can, do; those who can’t, teach.”
Obama never actually practiced law, did he?
Well if I was Obama I wouldn’t mess with Rahm. If he is dirty, than I am sorry but so is Obama, and Rahm isn’t going to go down for anyone.
What I want some to tell me is, if Obama is “clean as a whistle” and got out of Chicago clean, why did Blago even approach him or members of his staff to start with. I wouldn’t, for fear they may rat me out.
My general take on Obama is that he lies easily but not skillfully. The Goolsbee flap over talking about NAFTA to the Canadians showed Obama on TV lying through his teeth because he wasn’t sharp enough to figure out how to deceive through his teeth while telling the technical truth.
My guess is that he’s going to be caught out on a clear lie in this case too. His formulations are just too crude, too broad, and he is very likely to run into convincing contrary evidence.
Well, my interpretation is this: I am so f*cking you idiots over. And I’m gonna keep it up for the next four years. Catch me if you can… SUCKERS!
I agree frankly0, I don’t think he has the chops. And he’s just arrogant enough to buy into the teleprompter Jesus cr@p. Not a good combination. Unfortunately he may end up not merely destroying himself but bringing the house down around his golden a$$.
[...] story, and I certainly don’t have any special information to share. (Though I do recommend this post by that guy with the funny name, since it seems his parsing sub-routine is very much like my parsing [...]
Angienc…don’t worry about the “eeekk:” …it was good that you caught it. This thing is so finely parsed that after a day in court and a day staring at my brief, my brain was so foggy I didn’t even dare take a crack at it.
MYIQ did a really good job. And yours may be the first lucid explanation I’ve heard of “tortfeasers” since law school 25 years ago. Personally, I think “ragtime explanation” is the best summary I’ve heard of BO’s press conference, which, by the way only had a few questions and was mostly his non-denial denial.
Nell, he did work in a firm for a few years, but not for long. And if you want to talk legal skills, remember the debates with Hillary.. She answers a question like an appellate lawyer, and he…well, we heard it , didn’t we? She argued rings around all of them, no matter how tough it got. She has a complete grasp of the facts and she never falters.
The subtle but significant part of Obama’s comment to the press was the stuttering as he tried to utter ONE LETTER; “I” it came out: “I ….I ….. I ….I” the flag – at least to me after watching the primaries and the election, to disregard whatever came next. Obama came through the Chicago Mob. He took his freshly minted Ivy League degree to the South Side and, as daddy Frank Marshall Davis directed, got to work running for office. The true Manchurian Candidate pulls all the right strings and has most definitely struck a deal with the devil. Nothing remains but to view the drama. The lavish staging, costumes and music we don’t hear every day ’round here will be a culturally transformative experience for us.
CHANGE….I have already had more than I need. HOPE…They dig to the bottom of the pile during their investigation
THE ONE…. needs to have the curtain pulled away from him…so all his followers can see the real obama.