Heidi Li has a post up today about the pernicious effect of unchecked misogyny:
Some people have asked me why most mainstream media does not report on the misogyny that I claim has been and continues to be fully evidenced this political season. Answer: misogyny sells. That is, of course part of the the problem, and part of why we need our top political leaders to object, over and over, to misogynistic portrayals of women.
Just as Nixon and Reagan tapped into racial resentment in the American electorate to bring us decades of Republicans in the White House, Democrats have tapped into misogynism to win it for Obama in 2008. In both cases, the antagonism, prejudice and bad behavior had been held in check by societal norms but was released when the candidate and the media gave silent approval. It isn’t possible for us as a society to change the way people think. That happens over time. But it *is* possible for us to reinforce rules of acceptable behavior so that we all live together in some kind of detente that keeps people from getting hurt, either emotionally, financially or physically.
The Obama campaign and the DNC has done away with all that. They know that “misogyny sells”. For men and women who feel helpless to change their own circumstances, misogyny gives them a place to direct their anger and take power. Women become the convenient scapegoats like the stereotypical African American “welfare queens” who didn’t exist or German Jews after the Armistice at Versailles.
But misogyny goes even farther than this. Misogyny is rooted in our great religions. It prevents women from ascending to positions of power in the Catholic Church. It has been used in churches for millenia to make sure that women know that their bodies do not belong to themselves. It has only been in the last century that women, through advances in pharmacology, have been able to break the “biology is destiny” cycle that kept them relegated to second class citizenship. In the last 50 years, women have struggled mightily in the workplace for economic livelihood, self-fulfillment and respect. Anyone who wants to know what that early period was like should watch AMC’s Mad Men to see what unchecked misogynism is like.
Even before the election of 2008, those of us in male dominated careers still have a tough time of it. We see the “Chris Matthews Effect” on a daily basis. Men have a very difficult time acknowledging the accomplishments of women and women have a tendency to reinforce the notion that our achievements are based on luck or some personal connection instead of hard work, intelligence, insight or creativity. We struggled with male professors who gave their time and praise to our male colleagues. We often find ourselves criticized for being “difficult to work with” or not properly deferential when we challenge male colleagues at work.
The misogyny that the Obama campaign, the DNC and media have unleashed is going to be very difficult to put back into the bottle after the election is over. There has been only one good thing to come out of all of this. Women are now more aware than ever that the issue of abortion has been used as a political football by both parties as a way to control women voters. The Democratic party has been revealed to take no real interest in the wishes of women. 18 million voters, many of them women for Hillary Clinton, were easily dismissed and their votes relegated to the circular file. It was *expected* that they would just fall in line and hand over their power in November. This actions taken during the primaries and the convention show us the deep rot of sexism that runs through the party. They are so used to taking us for granted that they feel they don’t need to try to win us over and they have no comprehension of the damage they have done to their most faithful constituency.
Republicans, on the other hand, know that if you want to win, you have to rely on all of your players. John McCain may have fought the inclusion of a female on his ticket and maybe he’s not entirely comfortable with it. But you have to admire the courage it took to do it. He’s a little like one of the baseball team owners who relented to give Jackie Robinson a crack at the big leagues. If McCain and Palin win this election, things will never be the same.
That is why we resist the Democratic party this year. We want real change and we’re not going to get it with Barack Obama as president after he has unleashed the monster of sexism that lurked beneath a thin veneer of comity. It is on his shoulders to do something about it. We hold him personally responsible because misogyny sells and he has reaped the benefits all season long at our expense.
Filed under: General | Tagged: Barack Obama, John Lennon, misogyny
I’m probably going to get hammered for this, but, oh well, there comes a time when one must say what seems to be important and relevant.
“But misogyny goes even farther than this. Misogyny is rooted in our great religions. It prevents women from ascending to positions of power in the Catholic Church.”
The Catholic church, in my view, is based on a desire of men to control women. It is not unique in that respect. Islam does a pretty good job in that regard.
I believe women everywhere need to wake up to the snow job that religion does on them, keeping them in chains to men.
I truly apologize to those for whom their religion is central – just ignore me. The reason for writing this is I needed to say what I’ve been seeing for a very long time. And I think it is being played out on a large scale in this election.
Excellent Post RD! Thank you! This issue is so core.
On this part:
“John McCain may have fought the inclusion of a female on his ticket and maybe he’s not entirely comfortable with it. But you have to admire the courage it took to do it”
You seem to imply that he did feel uncomfortable. Was that your assumption, or did you find out that he actually was? I want to know that part, because though it is a fine point, it is important to me-whether or not he welcomed or was sold on the idea..
He seems beyond comfortable, and very welcoming. Further, he is married to a powerful woman, and pays his female staff the same if not more than men. To me (and this helps me a great deal in pulling the lever for him), he is very fair and supportive of women.
I have always thought the pro-life shit was a means of surviving in what his party had become.
urgetocompute: No need to apologize. Any religion or political party whose foundation is based on placing women in a secondary role is misogynist. The primary role of male dominance has been created by men to assure their position. Once that has been accepted then women face an uphill battle.
It is not necessary to point out every instance of sexism that is practiced against women, but when someone mentions that this is a man’s world it is enough to admit that yes indeed it is at that.
Love this post!
Remember when the NYT said this in 1984, in glowing support of Geraldine Ferraro??
How the “TIMES” have changed!
Obama should have started his condemnation of misogyny months ago during the Primary. That alone tells me he’s failed any future litmus for DEFENDING women’s rights. Argh!
joanie: It was a very risky thing to do and we have yet to see whether it will pay off. I am assuming that he would have felt more comfortable with someone he’s known or worked with longer, most of them *not* women. But you gotta admire Republicans for having the moxie to want to win so badly that they don’t frickin’ care what gender the player is. That is when you achieve true equality.
RD- you are right on the money on this one – and have hit something verrrry near and dear to my heart. And when you say
You bring a key point to our attention – all that overt stuff is over – people will now – hopefully – be more able to recognize it when they hear/see it.
Urgetocompute: I agree, the “priestcraft” found a way to keep the power and the money early on – there was a time when women did hold the same levels within the church – indeed were even Bishops but that all ended in the middle ages when it was clear that women used resources differently and shared them more readily. I’m sure one of our historians or anthropological types can lend more info to us on this subject
Rd, Yes. The moxie (love that word) to make gender a non-issue.
off to work–love you all:)
ooops meant “covert stuff”
American journalists should hang their heads in shame at their sheer incompetence. And gross prejudice. BBC America has a current program – on now – about a global phone in and email session to share the effects of the economic crisis on the world. They just interviewed two farmers – on e in Nigeria, the other in Belgium. Their stories are heartbreaking. Where is this level of journalistic innovation and integrity in the US?
“John McCain may have fought the inclusion of a female on his ticket and maybe he’s not entirely comfortable with it. But you have to admire the courage it took to do it”
Did you read this somewhere, or is this just your idea?
I have not seen this before today.
Pat – thank you.
I
LOVE
JOHN
LENNON
& Woman is the N___R song PLUS this post is fantastic. Thank you RD!
I don’t think anything is going to be done about the misogyny until the Democrats LOSE BIG. We have to smack em down so they can find the smoking gun among their very sexism and misogyny. I want them to overanalyze and probe how they went wrong and when they see that VOTER FRAUD and MISOGYNY and not R@cism are the true culprits, I’ll feel vindicated.
PS: I love the fact that John Lennon in the clip checked himself on his own chauvanism and made a change.
WOMEN’S RIGHTS are HUMAN RIGHTS
HUMAN RIGHTS are WOMEN’S RIGHTS.
Problem with this thinking is women are 54 percent of the electorate easily the majority yet like ducks they waddle to the abuser, there in lies the problem.
I have said from the start that I admire John McCain not because he picked a woman as a running mate but because he chose Sarah Palin regardless of her being a woman. I truly feel that he knew the risks and he went ahead and chose her own her own merits.
Excellent post and so very true. When so many of our so-called “feminist” icons came out condemning McCain for picking Palin just because she was a woman I wanted to throw up! I have no problems with people arguing that she is a bad choice because they are on different sides of the issues, she is prolife, more conservative, etc. Even arguing that she doesn’t have enough experience should something happen to McCain is valid, although her executive experience is far greater than Obama’s, as is her job experience in general. Other than being a summer associate at a law firm, I don’t think mr. obama ever really had a “real” job. Did he have to work his way thru high school? College? Law school? Hmmmm. Seems he was able to afford a lot of overseas travel as a young man too. But he is just like you and me….
But I digress.
The fact that the Republican pundits were the only ones to take note of the horrific treatment that Hillary Clinton was receiving from the press and from her own party shows they saw it, they knew it was a hot button and they used it. And good on them!
Hell YES I want a woman in the White House. Does it matter if she believes in all the issues just as I do? It’s important but it’s not the end all be all. She is a strong, smart, experienced Governor and mayor and she is every bit as qualified, if not more, than obama.
It’s disgraceful that we have not had a woman even on a major ticket since Ferraro, let alone a female Pres. or VP. We have worked so hard to make such little progress. It has to stop.
If Obama wins, and it sure looks like he will, it will reward the Democratic Party for their misogyny and their bizarre hatred of both Clintons.
However, I think the party will pay a big price. Things are so bad now it is difficult to see how Obama turns it around, He could be just like Jimmy Carter and damage the party for years to come. Since the Dems will control the House and Senate, they will get all of the blame if things don’t get a lot better in the next four years.
This could be a problem no matter who is the president, but I think it will be made worse because of Obama’s inexperience. Biden had it right when he said that Obama’s weakness will likely cause a crisis like Kennedy had with the cuban missiles. I can see Putin deciding to stir up unrest in Ukraine or Iran getting more aggressive in Iraq. They would be a lot more afraid of doing this kind of thing with tough-guy McCain.
I am deeply angered at the Democratic Party, but I have even more problems with Republicans. I do not want to see them damaged like they were by the radicals like Ayers or by Carter’s presidency. I am not convinced that Carter deserved all the blame but it still gave the Republicans the upper hand getting Reagan elected. Reagan and his ideology have been a disaster for our country and are the direct cause of the economic meltdown we are now experiencing. However, if Dems are in control of the legislative and executive branches, the Republicans will surely manage to spin it so that Dems take the fall for this mess. It is not like the media will bother to tell us the truth.
I agree with joanie and mawm. I would imagine that many of McCain’s handlers actually faught him over the addition of Palin to the ticket. he has never wavered in his support of her despite all of the nasty coverage she has gotten. I find that truly admirable. And I’m not so sure it was a knee jerk decision as many of the obots argue. I read that he was in talks with her as long ago as february.
A SPECIAL POST: As the Violence of Obama’s Followers Escalates, A Former Resident of Communist Romania Expresses Her Fears about Obama and What is Happening to Our Country
http://insightanalytical.wordpress.com/2008/10/24/a-special-post-a-former-resident-of-communist-romania-expresses-her-fears-about-obama-and-what-is-happening-to-our-country/
And so it seems it has begun here…now…
A must read.
River Daugter,
This was an excellent post. I’ve really been struggling to find anyone who sees this issue as central to this election as I do. My most dependably feminist friends seem to have given up and stuck Obama signs in their yards. It was a relief to realize that there are others like me who are bone deep Democrats who are putting principle before party,
urgetocompute,
As I said yesterday, I’m religious but I agree with your post completely. If you get hammered, I’ll stand with you. I don’t believe that it’s endemic to all religions and it’s certainly not limited to the two that you mentioned, but religion is one of the tools that can be effectively used to deny women power including the power to control our bodies and our destinies. Speaking out about that respectfully as you have done is necessary, imo.
Chuck Todd made it sound as if McCain and Palin weren’t a team and I understand that the NYT Magazine has an article on the difficulties within the campaign coming in this week’s edition. I intend to ignore it. It sounds too much like the hit jobs that were constantly done on Hillary and her campaign.
I’ve made my choice. I think that McCain has the experience to hold the country together for four years. I’m convinced that a strong Democratic Congress can and will moderate his actions and, if the stars align, Hillary will be our candidate in 2012.
That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.
I thought I had read somewhere that it was Newt Gingrich’s idea to consider Sarah Palin. Even a rock toad can have good ideas.
BernieO: I love everything you said except this: “and it sure looks like he will,” – it’s HAKA. Analyze the SUSA polls in the battleground states – they will go red. The swing vote is too high and in McCain’s favor in populations that normally are “Democratic”
I think the equivalency between Nixon’s Southern strategy and the misogyny of this campaign is quite accurate…and a very astute observation.
In other news, notyoursweetie is reporting that military votes are being tossed out in VA on a technicality.
niiiiice….
I am definitely NOT a Krauthammer fan, FAR from it, but his piece today in the Washington Post in support of John McCain is just spot on. I found myself agreeing with basically everything he said. I think I have become a pod person!!!!
It’s on real clear politics and it’s really worth a read:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/10/security_first_why_im_voting_f.html
Here is the last half of it:
“Who do you want answering that phone at 3 a.m.? A man who’s been cramming on these issues for the last year, who’s never had to make an executive decision affecting so much as a city, let alone the world? A foreign policy novice instinctively inclined to the flabbiest, most vaporous multilateralism (e.g., the Berlin Wall came down because of “a world that stands as one”), and who refers to the most deliberate act of war since Pearl Harbor as “the tragedy of 9/11,” a term more appropriate for a bus accident?
Or do you want a man who is the most prepared, most knowledgeable, most serious foreign policy thinker in the United States Senate? A man who not only has the best instincts, but has the honor and the courage to, yes, put country first, as when he carried the lonely fight for the surge that turned Iraq from catastrophic defeat into achievable strategic victory?
There’s just no comparison. Obama’s own running mate warned this week that Obama’s youth and inexperience will invite a crisis — indeed a crisis “generated” precisely to test him. Can you be serious about national security and vote on Nov. 4 to invite that test?
And how will he pass it? Well, how has he fared on the only two significant foreign policy tests he has faced since he’s been in the Senate? The first was the surge. Obama failed spectacularly. He not only opposed it. He tried to denigrate it, stop it and, finally, deny its success.
The second test was Georgia, to which Obama responded instinctively with evenhanded moral equivalence, urging restraint on both sides. McCain did not have to consult his advisers to instantly identify the aggressor.
Today’s economic crisis, like every other in our history, will in time pass. But the barbarians will still be at the gates. Whom do you want on the parapet? I’m for the guy who can tell the lion from the lamb.”
PS: Bernie, Anything over 5% in a swing state, where elections come down to 100 or so votes is significant – at least to me.
I have never even heard of this song. It is so powerful in its brutal truth.
Jean, than you. I tried to be respectful. I weep for the pain that institutions create – unnecessarily – for large groups of people. How they try to control the fierce spark of life in all of is. I want to say – as I have said before, and despite how it might embarrass her – that I have the utmost admiration for RD in establishing and maintaining this site, for the vehicle it has become. I was wondering last might what silver lining there is to this dark cloud of an election. And, you know, the confluence is probably one of the most silver of those linings. Gold, in fact, pure gold.
For decades, the Democratic party was the party of segregation and Jim Crow. It was primarily northern Democrats and Republicans that opposed the r@csim of the “Dixiecrats.”
But the wink & nudge appeals to r@cists by Nixon and Reagan caused a realignment that turned the GOP into the last bastion of r@cism. Although it’s not yet extinct, r@cism has been so discreditied that it has to be practiced covertly when it is practiced at all.
With a few isolated exceptions, the accusations of r@cism in this year’s campaign are based on evidence that is, at best, ambiguous.
Misogyny on the other hand, doesn’t even try to hide. It is an indispensible part of the Obama campaign, and it is more like air raid sirens than dogwhistles.
Wouldn’t it be ironic if this campaign resulted in the GOP becoming the party of feminism while the Democratic party became the last bastion of the he-man woman haters?
myiq2xu, on October 24th, 2008 at 9:15 am Said:
Wouldn’t it be ironic if this campaign resulted in the GOP becoming the party of feminism while the Democratic party became the last bastion of the he-man woman haters?
________________________________________________________
Judo is a wonderful practice. Just when the big guy thinks he’s won – kapow! He’s upside down in a position he never imagined he’d be. The inclusive candidate, the ONE reaching out to all, is the misogynist bigot! And THAT is how he will go down in history. Too late to take it back BO. It’s what you are. Your frontal cortex didn’t have the machinery to foresee this one.
Great post! The video choice is excellent. Listening to the song again after all these years I am amazed at it’s prescience. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
BernieO, from my view it looks like Obama is going to lose. With the polls showing a tight race, I believe that means McCain is up by about 5 points.
Misogyny on the other hand, doesn’t even try to hide. It is an indispensible part of the Obama campaign, and it is more like air raid sirens than dogwhistles.
Wouldn’t it be ironic if this campaign resulted in the GOP becoming the party of feminism while the Democratic party became the last bastion of the he-man woman haters?
*********
Stranger things have happened. Do you think we can convince them to address UHC? It really is better for businesses to not have to deal with an expensive patchwork of healthcare issues. Think how strong our auto manufacturers would be if they were relieved of the expense of healthcare for retirees as Japanese and Canadian manufacturers are.
All I can say, Riverdaughter, is Amen and thank you!
I probably would have begrudgingly voted for Obama had he stood tall and out front in the beginning and decried the brutal treatment that Hillary Clinton was forced to endure. Had he taken the lead and smacked down those blogger supporters who were allowed to run rampant with vulgarity and disrespect, I might have found a smidgen of interest. Had he taken the bull by the horns and shown some semblance of leadership and moral outrage against a female opponent who had more right to be in this campaign than he, I might have given in. But he remained silent. Sexism flourished.
His campaign was based on his ability to transcend ra*cism yet he stood by silently when his supporters trotted out the most divisive tactics in the book by labeling good people with a verbotten perjorative where it did not exist thus unraveling the myth of his unity meme. Ra*cism flourished.
Leadership is standing up when others will not. It is drawing the line in the sand against hatred and bigotry when others choose to turn away. Obama did nothing. He showed me from the outset that leadership for him was in name only. His reluctance allowed more fuel to be thrown on the fire which displayed a lack of depth and character. How desirous is it to win at the cost of selling your soul? Obviously he made his decision in favor of only himself.
Leadership means taking the lead. Setting the parameters. Shifting the dialogue. Defending principle. At no time has this man shown a semblance of the quality it will take to lead. This man is no risk taker nor is he embued with qualities that would suggest otherwise.
We are taking the biggest risk of all in an Obama win. There is nothing there to suggest he will govern with any degree of competence. He lost me a long time ago with his silent acquiescence. His deficiencies are glaring.
Jean, even the democrats aren’t going to do UHC. Kerry said it was a non-starter, and if you listen to Obama right now, his health plan is essentially, “Don’t get sick”.
It is going to take a collapse of the current system to get any of these bought and paid for politicians to seriously address health care. The lobbyists have control of both sides.
Shoot! I wish I could believe this Mawm. I want to. I’ve been studying the RCP poll average VERY closely for some time now. From that perspective it’s clear that the economic downturn did for McCain. BO’s running average (since Sep 17) preferred % has been rising linearly and JMcC’s has been declining linearly. That’s very bad news for McC.
However, … Investor’s Business Daily poll ( http://www.ibdeditorials.com/PollsMain.aspx ) has BO ahead by only 1%, and they have been very accurate in the past.
This is a stupendous post. I am amazed every day by the courage, resourcefulness and vision of our blogmother.
What is so crazy is that women are STILL the n*gger of the world, and because we don’t have enough women in high places to make it stop, it goes on and on and on.
Does any of this make any sense to anyone?
This is from the Rasmussen Daily. How can O be ahead 16 pts ahead with women, but only 3 pts ahead with white women? And he’s getting more republican crossover than Mccain is getting dems? Huh? I know Scott McClellan endorsed the one (barf!!) but Republicans hate him too, right? plus they go on to say that Obama has narrowed M’s lead in GA to 5 pts. what??? these numbers just don’t add up.
urgetocompute, the pollsters are getting %80 hang ups. That is unprecedented. Which side do you think would be hanging up more? My bet is the side that is totally disgusted with the media.
Anyone who seriously believes that Obama is going to save them from economic disaster does not know Obama. They are voting with their heads up their butts. I won’t go as far as claiming that McCain has any better grasp of this current debacle which has economists in disagreement, but thinking that Obama is going to cure all ills is way beyond naive.
Show me where he has already made a difference prior to running for office. Do I hear the crickets chirping out there?
RD: What a great post. Where do you find these treasures of history that shine a brilliant light on what’s happening today? I think anyone who believes that Obama will provide some enlightened leadership in putting the misogyny genie back in the bottle is naive in the extreme. If you want to see the future for women, just look at Obama in the rear view mirror. He has the single minded pursuit of personal power in his sights, he covets a cult of personality and his political methods today and yesterday are unprincipled and undemocratic. One has only to look at his “events”, his multi-million dollar Democratic acceptance speech, his multi-million dollar Chicago grandstand for his assumed victory to see what is at the core of his being. And that personal aggrandizement is wrapped in a suffocating blanket of Chicago machine politics, alliances with male figures who condemn America for war mongering as they brandish their own fists, knives and guns in the name of political change.
I wish all women could see through the media fog of politics to the reality. I love and admire HRC and appreciate what she has to do to survive another day and I only hope her survival is not a pyrrhic victory.
Mawm, on October 24th, 2008 at 9:43 am Said:
urgetocompute, the pollsters are getting %80 hang ups. That is unprecedented. Which side do you think would be hanging up more? My bet is the side that is totally disgusted with the media.
___________________________________________________
Fingers crossed, Mawm!
There is a story on CNN’s front page about ‘fraternal polyandry’. I had never heard of it, but it reinforces John Lennon’s song. In a poor part of India, land is so scarce that brothers marry the same woman so the land does not need to be divided. They have a long story on a family with two brothers, but note that in families of more brothers the wife is wife to all of them. Isn’t that sweet?? Sorry, I can’t do links, but it is on the front page if anyone is interested.
Oops, must have left off the closing tag, sorry.
OT, yay, Krauthammer comes out for McCain, repudiating Obama and the media’s double standard. Old stodgy Charles is for the guy who can tell the lion from the lamb.
Opinion in the Washington Post, a paper which I am cancelling today growing ill at their ridiculous bias, and yes, I remember right after 9/11 how “patriotic” and pro-war it was, but soon it was back to old sandbagging tricks…
Time to save my money. I’ll snatch what I need from the Post online, thank you very much.
PJ – Obama does not know what to do in any situation. He dithers and waits until a crisis develops, then comes out with some “solution” that does not address the issue in any way. (See: The Reverend Wright situation, the Russia-Georgia situation, the economic crisis where he was against Hillary’s solutions before he was for them, etc. etc.)
The stock market is very close to complete collapse today. Where is Obama? In Hawaii with his grandmother. No offense, but they have cellphones there, don’t they?
Gary,
Ken Adelman (the guy who said Iraq would be a “cakewalk”) has endorsed Obama, and so have other Bush stalwarts. I don’t know where these folks are coming from. Meanwhile real leftists like ex-Weatherman Mark Rudd are enthusiastically supporting him too. I don’t get it.
I had never heard that McCain resisted naming Palin. I heard that he wanted Lieberman but his staff convinced him that wouldn’t go over with conservatives. He has seemed pretty comfortable with Palin so far. I hope he doesn’t wimp out.
I don’t get that poll either. How can there be that many non-white women to make the difference? I’m a mathphobe, so I don’t know how to figure it out.
Honora: That story is sickening and all based on rules that some bozo laid down centuries ago. God, what a ghastly story that is and I grieve for the woman who must endure this lifestyle. Awful.
a lot of the state polls are showing statistical ties in florida, nc, virginia, and ohio…. Throw in the distorted weighting of the polls, and the potential for people lying to the polls (so called bradley effect, or whatever) and I think Mccain takes all 4 of these. It comes down to Pennsylvania. If those bitter, racist, redneck, bible-thumping gun clingers show up en masse…. Mccain can still win this election. If he gets all 5 of those AND maintains Indiana and Mizzou (he should) then he doesn’t need colorado, nevada or new mexico.
madamab: Who would be your last call to make in any crisis? Obama. Let him bask in the Hawaiian sun, he is of no help. The market is tanking, the economy is on an ocean voyage to nowhere, but I would never in a million years expect Obama to sort it out. I’d rather trust Ted the Weatherman to give me a more accurate read than Barack Obama.
Guys, hang on to your hats. The market is plunging. I’d keep an eye on Hillary’s site. She’s not going away and now is when we need her most of all.
The polls and CW are screwy this year. Everything is off. Pollsters cannot poll accurately irregardless of how much they claim to be able to do so with an 80% hangup. People who want to talk about their devotion and loyalty to the One consent to be polled,everyone else is keeping their head down. I usually have a “feel” for elections, but this year I am baffled. No one knows, and I mean NO ONE knows how this election is going to go.
Lately I have had some very quiet talks with younger women about their cavalier, insulting, and condescending attitude towards some women in public life. Some listened, and some did not. Two popped off and I had to tell them I did not want to be associated professionally with anyone who regarded other women in such a manner. I said “do not call me for advice or references”. They were sullen but understood that I am not going to put up with this anymore. You have to make a stand even if it is in a small way.
Is it too much to think that someone could be manipulating the market or has my tinfoil hat become too tightly affixed to my head?
There has been only one good thing to come out of all of this. Women are now more aware than ever that the issue of abortion has been used as a political football by both parties as a way to control women voters.
But are they? Many women fell in line, buying the “Roe v. Wade” fear card that was intentionally used to manipulate them.
urge: RCP is including the ridiculous outlier polls in their averages. Gallup today: 1.5 difference. IBD: same margin. Also, the AP (gag). Then, there’s the CBS/NYTImes with a 13-15 point margin. Clearly, people are playing wildly with numbers. The only thing that matters is who shows up and votes.
riverdaughter, on October 24th, 2008 at 9:55 am Said:
Guys, hang on to your hats. The market is plunging. I’d keep an eye on Hillary’s site. She’s not going away and now is when we need her most of all.
_______________________________________________________
RD, how is Hillary going to help? Currently she is politically impotent. Do you have reason to believe otherwise? Are your instincts telling you something?
Isolde, good for you!
I know that I am not going to be able to watch the election results. It will be one more night in this nightmare POTUS election marathon when my stress about the results will just be overwhelming. I just wish that more women would hear and read that tremendous speech Palin gave as a clarion call for all women. She really gets it. I also heard a Democrat journalist last night I think on Greta who is from Alaska and although she is voting for O she noted that in AK Palin is popular not only because of her policies but because she is seen as very bi-partisan. She noted that her parents who are still in AK admire Palin as gov. but are very liberal and will vote O. I thought that the account of good policies and bi-partisanship was interesting.
Jealousy rears its ugly head in the form of the formerly conservative and sane minded Kathleen Parker, who is making the majorly sexist and centuries old charge that Palin got picked by McCain cuz he has the hots for her. One wonders if maybe Palin would have had an easier time had she looked like the wicked witch of the west, complete with green skin.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/23/AR2008102302489.html
Fantastic insight! I always knew that “sexism in the media” was a half-truth. It irked me how hollow it sounded. And still, there were those who fought mightily (looking at you, MoDo) against it being recognized. I always knew this was a campaign based on hatred. Now I know: It was hatred of women all along.
fif, on October 24th, 2008 at 10:02 am Said:
urge: RCP is including the ridiculous outlier polls in their averages. Gallup today: 1.5 difference. IBD: same margin. Also, the AP (gag). Then, there’s the CBS/NYTImes with a 13-15 point margin. Clearly, people are playing wildly with numbers. The only thing that matters is who shows up and votes.
__________________________________________________-
fif: that’s the point. RCP averages – admittedly in some mysterious way – the polls, so extremes tend to get smoothed out.
But I think Mawm’s point about the hangup rate is very pertinent.
PJ – That hat looks great on you! I have been thinking the same thing.
my understanding from my advisors is that the hedgefunds are dumping. people were locked into them and now have the freedom to change portfolios. so they’ve lined up to dump. I’m no expert by any means. maybe danikat could explain. I’ve loved her posts, she makes it very understandable.
Sal – If she had been an older woman, she would have been savaged for her “cankles.”
There’s no winning with enablers of the patriarchy like Kathleen Parker. She is a charter member of the he-man woman-haters club.
Two popped off and I had to tell them I did not want to be associated professionally with anyone who regarded other women in such a manner. I said “do not call me for advice or references”. They were sullen but understood that I am not going to put up with this anymore. You have to make a stand even if it is in a small way.
isolde: I agree. After telling people in no uncertain terms that I do not want ANY Palin bashing emails, a friend sent a “parody” of Palin being interviewed by Gibson. It was a voice over of what was going on in her head: “Oh gawd, I don’t know, what should I say? Maybe I should run for the door,” etc. I deleted it and did not respond to her call about, “I know you don’t want this stuff, but this is funny!” NO–it’s NOT. I have zero tolerance for any of this right now. The “I was just joking” line doesn’t fly with bigoted jokes, and laughing about how the media has made an intentional and relentless attempt to destroy a female governor is not friggin’ funny at all–for all women. I am going to need election rehab after Nov. 4th.
Pat, I’m concerned that my head IS a tinfoil hat.
Sal… I just read that, she is PATHETIC.
Trillions have been poured into the markets in order to stabilize the economy and the market is bombing? Who exactly is in charge of this mess? We all know who to blame but is anybody steering this ship of state? Forget Bush. He is so irrelevant at this point that he may as well be clearing brush as we speak.
Oh wait, Michelle is standing in for Backtrack today. Maybe she can clue us in. I feel rudderless at the moment.
ANYONE WHO WANTS A CONDEMNATION FROM OBAMA AT THIS POINT NEEDS TO RETHINK THAT IDEA. if it isn’t clear how he and his supporters feel and will continue to feel and act, then they don’t get this whole “put women down” mindset. a public condemnation changes nothing. it is pandering and nothing more. understand this! we need to rise as a group and not wait or expect support from those idiots who put us down.
urgetocompute -
Are you getting NPR in your teeth?
Gary,
I’m listening to right wing radio in Boston. They are laughing about “legendary idiot” Scott McClellan endorsing Obama. They say he has raised the IQ of both parties by making the switch.
urgetocompute…help us with the math. what kind of figures are they using if they get O witha 3 pt lead among white women, but a 16 pt lead among women as a whole? It seems like they’d have to include a huge number of non-white women, but like bb i’m afraid of the math. can you help?
gary, do you want to go to lunch today?
bb..mcclelan doesn’t surprise me. if you look up weasel in the dictionary, you’ll see his pict there. he’s also a confessed liar. so I guess that’s why he has so much in common with Obama. I would think that Obama would outright reject his endorsement.
During the Bush tenure I had the feeling that the bullies of the world felt validated and came out of the woodwork. Any brakes on such behavior seemed to be gone. Now I fear that, if Obama is ‘elected’, the same thing will happen with misogynists. It is already happening! There is barely a pretense that the behavior is unacceptable. There is and will be ongoing disparaging of ‘ordinary’ people also.
There is that attitude that people not of the ‘elite’ are inferior. This has bothered me since I first observed it in 6th grade, and more so from then on.
I think it is amusing that people try to call Cindy McCain a stepford wife when she runs a successful company, does a lot of charity work and is articulate. Yes, she inherited the company, but so do many men who are then ’successful’!
urge: but “outliers” are thrown out in statistics, because they throw the whole model out of order. The network polls are so high compared to the traditional polling companies, they are throwing off the results. And of course, those are the only polls the media talks about. No one is hyping the low-end polls are they?
mawm, are you asking me out on a date
madamab, no. I used to like NPR but they seem to have ordered in a large selection of Kool Aid. I’ve taken to wearing aluminum braces on my teeth. You can’t be too careful. BTW – the price of aluminum foil is sky rocketing. Should buy shares in foil makers.
the markets are in part being manipulated for obama supporters. this shakeup will continue while financials come in from companies. we will get over this. FRANKLY I GROW WEARY OF HEARING THE END HAS COME. we have nothing to fear but fear itself.
and hillary? she is out supporting obama so forgive me if i don’t sit around waiting for her to show up and support us.
Interesting that so many of the Bush enablers are now jumping ship and eager to join Bush the Dem. Tells us a lot don’t you think? So impatient to get the stain of Iraq off their hands they are rushing to promote Obama. If their impaired judgment allowed them to look past the Bush crimes, are we supposed to take solace in their support of BO? Don’t think so.
Market Report
The great hedge fund unwind continues in spades this morning with our markets limit-down after
significant weakness in overseas markets. There are multiple fundamental problems contributing
to the ugly environment; the latest being weakening earnings and more definitive signs of
recession in Europe and elsewhere. But at the risk of sounding like a broken record these days,
there is something much more important and relevant going on and we must stop looking for a
specific headline, economic or earnings report to explain each swing in the market. We remain
in the midst of a massive deleveraging by hedge funds, among other financial institutions and
consumers alike. But it’s the activity of the former that’s most relevant in today’s market
environment.
Pre-open, the futures had hit “limit-down. How do trading limits work?
During overnight hours:
S&P 500 futures: 5% up or down (60 points)
Dow futures: 5% up or down (550 points)
NASDAQ futures: 5% up or down (85 points)
At the market’s open:
Futures can trade down (only) as much as 10%. If they hit this limit, they can trade at (or
exceed) that limit for 10 minutes. If they’re still limit-down after 10 minutes, there’s a two-
minute trading halt and we move to the next level (20%). Same deal for the 20% level- if the
same circumstances occur as described above, we then move to 30%. If we hit 30%, the trading
halt stays in effect for the remainder of the trading day.
Why do hedge funds wield so much power?
At the peak in the market, it was estimated that about 10,000 hedge funds were managing about
$2 trillion in assets. Though that pales in comparison to the money in traditional mutual funds, if
you add in the leverage, you’re talking serious market weight. Due to forced deleveraging,
partly triggered by record-breaking redemption requests, hundreds of hedge funds are selling,
sparking a fire sale on all sorts of investments. We all feel the pain though, of course, as much
of what they’re selling is also owned by individual investors, pension funds, 401(k)s, etc.
As part of this great deleveraging, lenders to hedge funds are slashing credit lines or triggering
margin calls. The resultant cash squeeze is forcing a rush to the exits, which is exaggerating the
market’s swings. We can also point back to the Lehman failure to see when this all began to
spiral. The company’s bankruptcy has tied up billions of dollars of hedge fund assets. Hedge
funds had parked cash and other securities at Lehman’s prime brokerage operation in accounts
that are now frozen. Other hedge funds had derivative deals with Lehman, many of which were
credit default swaps (CDSs)- those could take many more weeks to unwind.
The top Google story right now is from CNN: “The Problem with Palin” So what is the “Problem with the Obama Campaign?” I ask. They are running against Palin. It’s like when you play doubles in tennis – hit it toward the “weaker” player. The difference being that doubles partners are in essence equal in status if not ability. For most of us Obama is running against McCain. In his campaign’s eyes, it’s “go after the woman”. Another example of misogyny?
stodgie – I want a public condemnation from ALL the candidates because Obama and McCain have bully pulpits right now. That statement will be out there and it will be powerful, even if it is pandering. Plus, some of the more slavish Obots might think twice before attacking a woman if they hear it from their Dear Leader.
But I agree that it might be too late at this point.
Market Report this am from Schwab
Fox is reporting that the story about the girl who was beaten and branded with the B on her face is now suspect.
I know this won’t be a popular viewpoint, but I don’t believe that Hillary will run for President again. If Obama loses, she will be compromised by her support of him this year. She has gone way beyond what I expected she would do. She isn’t even in a position to argue for fairness in the primaries and caucuses anymore.
I hope she can still fight for the right policies if Obama does get elected, but I think if he is President, she will be pushed aside and the Democrats will very likely try to get her out of the Senate. I will continue to admire and support Hillary, and I hope I’m wrong about this.
he’s also a confessed liar.
gary: It seems all the Bush liars (and God knows how many of them there are…) are lining up to support BO. First Powell, now McClellan. I’m expecting Scooter Libby to endorse tomorrow.
purplefinn, on October 24th, 2008 at 10:14 am Said:
The top Google story right now is from CNN: “The Problem with Palin” So what is the “Problem with the Obama Campaign?” I ask.
*****************************
Google’s CEO is a HUGE obama supporter and has been an “unofficial” part of his campaign since the get go. Keep that in mind when you do news searches and see what the top stories are on Google…never bad for obama, that’s for sure!
PJ – Of course it is. Blame the victim.
Funny how McCain and Palin contacted her and did not dismiss her story.
But the story about the woman who was beaten in the face with the McCain sign is not suspect. The fact is, this is out there and it’s going to get worse.
Pat: that will really p*ss me off, because it will minimize the months of legitimate Obot abuse we have witnessed and experienced.
bostonboomer, on October 24th, 2008 at 10:17 am Said:
I know this won’t be a popular viewpoint, but I don’t believe that Hillary will run for President again
******************************************
There are a lot of us here who agree with you. There is a chance if obama loses but, althuogh I hope otherwise, it doesn’t look too good at all for mccain.
I love it when romance crops up on The Confluence.
{{{Gary and Mawm}}}
The top Google story right now is from CNN: “The Problem with Palin”
Isn’t that perfect? They create the problem, and then point to it.
I-hate-the-media. That is my mantra this week.
I am clinging to the last Super Bowl when the Patriots were favored to win. The last 15 minutes of that game showed that upsets do happen all the time. Eli Manning showed them how.
Polls have been so inaccurate that they make no sense. It also depends upon how the question was framed. Stats and polls can be manipulated as we all know. It is all in the eye of the beholder.
I will stay steadfast alongside Mawm and SM who predict a McCain win. Either way the outcome will result in no surprise.
[...] Observes Riverdaughter Just as Nixon and Reagan tapped into racial resentment in the American electorate to bring us decades of Republicans in the White House, Democrats have tapped into misogynism to win it for Obama in 2008. In both cases, the antagonism, prejudice and bad behavior had been held in check by societal norms but was released when the candidate and the media gave silent approval. [...]
ainnj, thanks. I thought the top stories were based on hits. Of course I know they use a formula for the search page results not entirely based on hits.
Maybe they put up stories that they like as feelers to see who they can influence. The stories change frequently I notice. Lot’s of the bogus shills for Obama die quickly. I never hit on them, but rather go for another story to give it more status.
madamab…obama is still having Jay Z opening his rallies with the song 99 problems and the bitch aint one. here’s what he had to say at a recent concert:
Not only is Obama not condemning this kind of hate, he is encouraging it. He is a disgusting piece of filth. Obots can scream all they want about guilt by association. fuck them.
Pat Johnson, on October 24th, 2008 at 10:20 am Said:
I am clinging to the last Super Bowl when the Patriots were favored to win. The last 15 minutes of that game showed that upsets do happen all the time. Eli Manning showed them how.
*******************************************
I would like to cling to that as well but after witnessing what was done during the democratic primaries, I have no little faith that even an onslaught of senior seniors at voting booths across the country will be able to pull this one out for McCain. All I can do now is vote for mccain on 11/4.
The scab has been ripped off and we are all left painfully aware of the stinging misogyny that pervades our society. When a political leader with the education, intelligence, intellectual curiousity, skills, and patriotism of Hillary Clinton is stomped down, as she has been in this election, the American people are not only deprived of her leadership, but we are also reminded that, in the end, gender trumps everything. It’s not just a glass ceiling, it’s a hammer above that ceiling that will smash any woman who dares to try to rise above it.
Sorry for the violent metaphors, but violence, whether physical or verbal, has been the one constant we have all experienced coming out of this election.
It’s not the economy, it’s the misogyny, stupid.
I can’t vote for Obama because of the corruption in his record, as exemplified by that deal with Rezko to buy his house.
But it’s the misogyny that is pushing me into voting for McCain/Palin. I never thought I’d vote Republican, but now I look forward to it. With pride.
PJ – Don’t forget me. I am sure that McCain is going to win. The 80% hangup rate and large undecided vote are huge red flags.
People are not comfortable stating the preference for McCain publicly for fear of being called r*cist. The only thing that matters is what happens on Election Day.
I have several buttons that, when pushed, can turn me into a raving maniac. Actually, they don’t even have to be pushed. Just blowing on them gently will do the trick.
And RD has hit two of them this morning. Religion and misogyny. And they are historically linked. I am not aware of any religion that doesn’t have some sort of sexism at its core. Islam was covered pretty well by Murphy yesterday. Christianity begins with Eve giving Adam the apple. Thus sealing for all time the place in the Old Testament where woman is the beginning of all evil, or original sin, in the world. Man is only evil because of woman.
I have given up on finding any church where I am totally comfortable. And, sadly, I no longer care.
I would love to see true equality for women in my lifetime. But all you have to do is turn on any cable channel, radio or movie and know that will never happen.
When my boys were toddlers, I would make a point of pointing out workers as we traveled. As in “See that woman up there fixing that telephone pole?” Of course, it was never a woman, but they didn’t know that. And now the one who can vote is voting for O.
Sigh.
Gary – I know – I actually mentioned that at my blog this morning. It’s all part of the same disgusting misogyny.
bb: I agree with your Hillary assessment. Unfortunately.
fif: If the girl made it up, which seems to be where this story is heading, she had done a disservice to both the McCain campaign and women everywhere. How do we take these accusations seriously when they are used for political upmanship? According to the report on Fox, the police are being “very cautious” at this time. Apparently the girl has changed her story more than once. Sad. This helps no one.
Jealousy rears its ugly head in the form of the formerly conservative and sane minded Kathleen Parker, who is making the majorly sexist and centuries old charge that Palin got picked by McCain cuz he has the hots for her.
OMG. Just when I think we have reached the bottom, a new low is met. How stupendously idiotic is this woman?
janicen, on October 24th, 2008 at 10:23 am Said:
It’s not the economy, it’s the misogyny, stupid.
*********
I agree and would add, It’s the installment, stupid.
One person one vote
All votes valued equally
Count all the votes
Got democracy?
bostonboomer, on October 24th, 2008 at 10:17 am Said:
I know this won’t be a popular viewpoint, but I don’t believe that Hillary will run for President again. If Obama loses, she will be compromised by her support of him this year. She has gone way beyond what I expected she would do. She isn’t even in a position to argue for fairness in the primaries and caucuses anymore.
I hope she can still fight for the right policies if Obama does get elected, but I think if he is President, she will be pushed aside and the Democrats will very likely try to get her out of the Senate. I will continue to admire and support Hillary, and I hope I’m wrong about this.
—————-
I agree that she won’t run for President again but I do think that she will continue to fight for the right policies. Hillary is very consistent. She has been fighting for the same issues all her adult life – women and children’’s rights, improving the quality of life for seniors, veterans, people with disabilities and children, health care for all and better education. She serves on senate Committees that are responsible for all the above including the environment.
ainnj, bostonboomer
I agree as well. I think even if McCain wins, Hillary will get blamed for the loss and once again be bamboozled out by the party “leaders”
Does no one think that Hillary will go third party after the election?
I do.
And I agree voters too have instincts, I’m in a swing State and there is no way people are going to participate in a poll that could make them a target by some wacko. I’m sure you have been polled but the names of these outfits and their number are generally blocked recall. No way IMHO you can trust polls right now think Dewey.
Count me as another Conflucian who believes McCain will win. Just look at the undecideds and leaners. The polls are adding the leaners to the definites. Why are they doing that? In the primaries, late deciders went for Hillary. They will go for McCain this time, not the risky, inexperienced guy.
madamab, on
That would be my wish, for sure….wow that would put things right in my mind.
I have been thinking lately that if Obama gets installed I won’t see a woman in the White House in my lifetime. After reading this, I understand why.
madamab: I could never forget you! I want so much to believe that Obama is toast.
My concern about this possible “falsehood” of that attack is that this young girl has named a black man as her attacker which, regardless of the veracity of her statement, will play into the Obama’s cry of ra*cism once again. I remember the Susan Smith charges very well. If she was trying to make a point it could cast this in another light. That is my chief concern surrounding my own skepticism.
It makes McCain supporters look stupid and adds more weight to Obama’s claims of ra*cism.
PJ – Don’t forget me. I am sure that McCain is going to win. The 80% hangup rate and large undecided vote are huge red flags.
madamab: I love your confidence. Thanks. I find it amazing–well, maybe not–that there is virtually no attention given to the respected, reliable polls (Gallup, IBD) that have it at a dead heat. And these numbers don’t have any idea which way the undecideds will break. The high poll numbers declaring victory for BO are really irresponsible, because if he does lose, there will be a major backlash and the country will continue to be severely divided. An occasional poll to give people a guide would make sense, but polls coming from every angle, every day, and fluctuating dramatically, are useless.
It makes McCain supporters look stupid and adds more weight to Obama’s claims of ra*cism.
Pat: it will also play perfectly into BO’s “victim” stance.
fif: Yup. When this was discussed on last night’s thread I was amazed at the number of women who were admitting to being actual victims of violence. It is an overwhelming tragedy.
PJ – I know. When I saw that the attacker was AA, I thought, “uh oh.”
I certainly hope she is not making it up, but we have to realize that she would receive the “Joe The Plumber” treatment no matter what.
madamb,
she should do it BEFORE the election for maximum impact. We know they gonna blame her already, so why not play the role and get the most satisfaction out of it?
Put it this way, if Hillary suddenly announced she was running for President again, I can guarantee you she’d at least have a 33% chance of winning. After McCain and Obama have been killing each other, she could come in looking like the adult. She won’t even have to run any ads. The networks will be reporting her candidacy 24/7
I never answer when pollsters or unknowns call me-that’s what caller id is for! I hope I am not alone in that.
Hillary would never not be a Dem, imo. I agree she should leave, and take Bill with her, but just can’t see it.
here’s the thing! the attention span of americans is small to say the least. i did research on stigma once for a profesional report i did. the public forgets quickly. hillary had standing, real standing worth so much more than the temporary support given to obama by the young (who are growing older by the day). she in my view squandered it by then throwing her support to obama in a big way. ok, i could have lived with an endoresement and occasional ralley. but she overdid it.
what she could have done was say i support the average joe and jain and talked about that at rallies and to anyone who would listen. and millions have have listened. did she do that? hell no! so down the road the bully bullpit would have been hers in congress and the media. it isn’t now.
anyone who thinks that the markets aren’t being manipulated in favor obama is naive. of course it is many other things, but much of it is spin to get obama past the election.
fif – The polls have massively overstated Obama’s support this entire season.
I just remember how much I FERVENTLY believed the polls that said Kerry was going to win in 2004. I will never have faith in this type of polling again.
Hillary Clinton will never go third party. She and Bill wouldn’t be out stumping their feet off for Obama if that were ever an option.
Sal – She promised to support Obama. That’s why she can’t change parties until after the election.
All I have to say about Hillary is:
Free Hillary
Vote McCain!
ainnj – I respectfully disagree. She is keeping her promise. That’s who she is.
She can say that she did everything humanly possible to elect Obama. But we all know she does not think he can win. She said so several times during the primaries.
Should McCain win, she can say that she has lost faith in the Democratic Party and go Independent. She can even do this should Obama win and make decisions she is not comfortable with.
my point here is if it is over for hillary she has a lot to do with that due to her actions after the primaries. sure she was done wrong by the dnc and the women bashers. no doubt! they stole the nomination from her. she would have been a blessing in the white house for all americans. and she still would down the road.
my criticism of her has to do with the bad judgement i see in over doing her support for obama. she should be supporting us as much as we supported her.
after this is past there is no reason why hillary can’t rise again. in fact i’d say the forces of the future are very much in her favor. she needs to think about that. she needs to think about the future of her fellow americans and not the dimocrat party. (i use the term dimocrat to show lack of respect).
I think that McCain will win, but I am not sure that the ’sensible’ part of me (a rather small part) really believes it, the ‘dreamer’ in me (the overwhelming part of me) is convinced.
It is a given that most the people on this blog are highly educated and come to their decisions based on much more than cultish adoration. Most of us think independently and are not above risking our comments to opposing points of view.
If McCain wins, fine. If it should be BO, we will stay united as most of us here are not equipped to just take our marbles and go home in defeat. We will remain watchdogs and critics and Party Unity will not be our guide.
That being said, I remain convinced that this blog is the best release for expressing points of view that may separate us from the mainstream. In fact, I am proud of our capability to remain steadfast in the face of adversity. Country over party.
PJ/bb: re HRC. I sadly agree.about HRC not running for POTUS again. I think even she acknowledges it with her own statements to that effect. I know that the Clinton’s think way ahead of NOW. So I wonder what she has in mind; what Bill has in mind. I note that he seems to truly love is work with his Global Initiative. He talks about how it is possible to get real things done; to operate in a non-partisan, non-political way to identify and solve problems. My dream for HRC is that she would strike out on her own for perhaps a parallel global initiative but one focused on women’s issues. I don’t think there is anything she has done that really compromises such a future. It is clear to me that women’t issues are global in their scope. The other thing I could see HRC doing is an initiative on UHC and even that could be global in scope. Why is it that we can not use more health insurance and health accounts to access the world market of health services? She should be able to negotiate one hell of a book deal on this POTUS election.
After McCain and Obama have been killing each other, she could come in looking like the adult. She won’t even have to run any ads. The networks will be reporting her candidacy 24/7
If there is one thing that unites the media it is their hatred for Hillary. She would be slaughtered.
I think McCain can win because I believe it is his destiny but I also feel that Obama intends on cheating to win.
I’m still reading… but myiq, I have been seeing signs that the republican party may end up being the party of feminism.
Wouldn’t it be interesting if women abandoned the likes of NOW and NARAL because they decide to stay behind and say, “Oh, but… the coathangers! Come back!”
It would serve them right. They are functioning like the union that “represents” checkers at the grocery stores. Pay your dues but don’t expect anything!
Just remember the silent wave across America that will not vote for backtrack.
Sadly it is a dangerous time in America to speak out.
The Toyko Roses and Axis Sallys and Lord HAHAs in the press have helped to stifle free speech and promote violence against women.
I try to speak to young women when the subject of politics and women’s history comes up and encourage them to see ” Iron Jawed Angels” and tell them what it was like to work in male dominated fields in the 60s and 70s.
Some are listening and learning and will not be so blind and accepting of bad behavior in the future.
COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS
PUMAS,BUBBAS, AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE
helen: Excellent points.
jjm – I think so too. Just the act of picking Sarah Palin shows a Republican commitment to female advancement that the Democratic Party has refused to show.
And remember that Obama said that he would not commit to appointing a cabinet comprised 50% of women in order to gain the votes of Hillary Dems.
If we feminists, men and women, support their misogyny, the Democratic Party will do nothing for us. We will be giving them a free pass to neglect and ignore us even more.
madamab,
Why do you think Hillary would go third party after the election? I’m very interested to hear your theory.
Madamab said:
Interesting -hadn’t thought of that -but if O wins and the party pushes her aside I can’t see Hill just going off into the sunset – she cares about this country.
Good point!
Quinn4Hillary> That quote from the Times is stunning. And stunning at how prophetic it is. We are dealing with this issue in the general election. The only people who questioned Obama’s credentials during the Democratic primaries were Hillary and some Republicans. Never the media. Hillary’s credentials (First Lady? Bah! Women’s rights? What did she have to do with those! Northern Ireland? Pahhleeze! Etc. etc. etc.) were questioned at every turn by EVERYONE. And now we see it with Palin. “She’s not fit to be VP” and they come up with a list of reasons. No one ever questioned Obama’s fitness to be the President. Nothing has changed, except that some of the champions of women, like the NY Times (I assume that was the Editorial Board), have thrown women under the bus. The NYT Editorial Board endorsed Obama yesterday. That quote needs to be brought to their attention and their partisan double-standard thrown in their collective faces.
Stodgie: Call me naive but my experience with investors and the world of stock markets is that they do not play for political points—particularly on this kind of grand scale. Most of the players in the markets that I know view the political landscape as mostly irrelevant. No, I think what we are seeing in this economic debacle is the wages of over leveraged investing being called on its margins in every sphere. What makes this really ugly is that the reach of markets today is not only global in a global sense never experienced before (Asian markets, India, emerging—who were not big players before) and how new investment products have woven together market sectors that used to be differentiated—housing, commodities, insurance et al. So that it is truly a global house of cards. I am sure that the global economic summit Bush is hosting on 11/15 is based upon internal predictions that what is happening was going to happen and that there are other shoes to fall besides today’s over leveraged hedge funds.
OT… found this at another forum and got a chuckle out of it….
Today on my way to lunch I passed a homeless guy with a sign that read “Vote Obama, I need the money.” I laughed.
Once in the restaurant my server had on a “Obama 08″ tie, again I laughed as he had given away his political preference–just imagine the coincidence.
When the bill came I decided not to tip the server and explained to him that I was exploring the Obama redistribution of wealth concept. He stood there in disbelief while I told him that I was going to redistribute his tip to someone who I deemed more in need–the homeless guy outside. The server angrily stormed from my sight.
I went outside, gave the homeless guy $10 and told him to thank the server inside as I ‘ve decided he could use the money more. The homeless guy was grateful.
At the end of my rather unscientific redistribution experiment I realized the homeless guy was grateful for the money he did not earn, but the waiter was pretty angry that I gave away the money he did earn even though the actual recipient needed money more.
I guess redistribution of wealth is an easier thing to swallow in concept than in practical application.
SOmeone posted that they showed their boy toddlers women in all roles. I did the same with my son, however, I went a step further and told him that all ninjas were women.
For me it’s been a gut instinct. I think there are a lot of McCain/Palin supporters who are laying low. With the voter fraud perpetrated by the Obama campaign, it may be close, but my gut tells me that the fraud won’t be enough. We’ll just have to wait and see. With the incredibly biased misinformation campaign being waged by the MSM we can only hope that a lot of people are watching FOX since they’re the only news outlet maintaining any semblance of balance right now.
The NYTimes also famously endorsed HRC. How did that work out?
mawn, I had to leave for a while. I agree that there will have to be an horrendous crisis in healthcare for the public to have a bigger voice than the K Street types.
Sal, I realize that Kathleen Parker is moderate on a lot of issues but she’s a Queen Bee. She wrote a hate-filled column about women in the military a few years ago. Guys sometimes thinks that women are more supportive of each other than reality reveals. Parker is not a person who has ever supported a woman who stepped outside of a traditional role, in my memory. The article that you linked is as harmful to women, as a group, as a daily slap in the face would be. Not that it was ever beyond her ability to be that vicious, but I see this particular article as payback for the thousands of e-mails that she received when she wrote her earlier column lambasting Palin. I’ve seen her interviewed a couple of times and she’s very angry that she suffered a backlash. She’s the Maureen Dowd of the right, imo.
BPD, ingenious! If I come across a waitperson stupid enough to wear a campaign slogan I think I’ll do the same.
Jangles – Hillary and Madeleine Albright started the Vital Voices Democracy Initiative. Because of its success, Vital Voices Global was created. The mission is still the same and that is to advance women’s economic, political and social status around the world by providing them with skills and support. Hillary is one of the honorary chairs. It is a nonprofit non-governmental organization.
http://www.vitalvoices.org/desktopdefault.aspx?page_id=734
Jangles, I no longer read the NYTimes so their endorsement means nothing to me. They showed their Obama bias during the primaries. They continue to show their bias by allowing Maureen Dowd to remain at the paper because $$$$$ and publicity means more to them than hiring real journalists and balanced commentators. I read the Wall Street Journal and other newspapers but don’t even give the NYTimes the advertising dollars by visiting their site.
BB – I think Hillary is a politician first and foremost. She sees government as the best forum for her talents and vision for America. She long ago chose the Democratic Party as the Party which most represents her values. However, this year, the Party rejected her in the most humiliating, self-destructive and misogynistic manner.
Hillary will do something with that information. What it is, depends on what happens on Nov. 4.
If McCain wins, she may gain back some influence with Party Leaders, as it will be clear that they should have allowed her to become the nominee. However, as some have pointed out, she may be blamed for Obama’s defeat, in which case she will become persona non grata with the Dems.
If Obama wins, it’s obvious that she will be pushed into a corner and ignored. She will not accept that outcome. She needs power and influence in order to make her agenda a reality.
If she cannot have any influence as a Democrat, she will not go Republican, clearly. Her only alternative is to choose a “third way,” which, coincidentally, was the idea behind the DLC in the first place.
This is where I’m coming from with this theory. It’s based on nothing but my intuition and understanding of Hillary as a woman and a politician. And it could be totally bogus, I admit.
BPD: No, it is just easier to support wealth redistribution if it not YOUR wealth that is be redistributed.
I will say that I don’t think taxing the people with the most to help people at the bottom is OK and it has been “MY” wealth that has been used for that purpose most years…
I still won’t vote for obama, tax equity/fairness is not my top issue. Feminism is now.
Kim: Today is Friday and we both know what that means. I am cleaning and checking in and out of here as I complete a chore here and there. Takes me twice as long but I admit to curiosity. The comments have been great this morning.
jangles i don’t disagree with you. the hedge funds need to be investigated and regulated. but i think there is a component of manipulation in this whole thing. there is a lot of manipulation in the market place these days as there is in the media and our very lives.
I wrote something up today about Kathleen Parker’s horrendous attack on Sarah Palin, stating that she is nothing more than a sex symbol being used to entrance men into voting for McCain.
Here is the link if anyone would like to read it.
The Prostitution of Sarah Palin
Wow! That is some BAD typing!
I DO think taxing people with most to help those with the least is GOOD!
…Just not my top issue.
Great post and lots of interesting points in the comments.
Just a little report from my neighborhood here in NE Pennsylvania. I’m seeing lots of McCain signs, off course. But also signs for Sam Bennett. She’s a Democrat running for Congress against the Republican incumbent, Charlie Dent.
Don’t you think that those Democrats voting for Bennett would have Obama signs on their lawns, too? It says to me that they’ll be voting a split ticket or leaving the top blank. Well, she’s got my vote. My sample ballot is looking like a real mixed bag. I’m voting McCain/Palin for top of ticket, then any women running for office and then I’ll have to research the remaining candidates. No early voting here, so I still have time.
Anyway, madamab, your comment about Hillary running as an independent candidate or third party. Wow! That made my day. I would just love it after all the wrongs the DNC has done to her.
britgirls, I am planning to do that too!
BPD, LOL at your redistribution of wealth.
kathleen parker? queen bee? hmmmm, i have no use for queen bees even if an occasional comment of clarity and common sense falls from their lips. i am out of patience with people who think they are all that. enough! i started reading the real reason why jackson sr is supposed to despise obama. i though maybe i’ll see something worth reading here. all it was in fact was jackson’s former mistress and mother of his out of wedlock child whining that jackson was angry about something to do with her. see what i mean? it isn’t about the aa community being use here. naw it’s about her! like i said enough already!
Pat, what with working all the damn time, my house is a wreck.
PJ: I so agree with your statements about the value of this blog. It is healing. It certainly keeps me from overworking. I come here for the sense of community, visit NQ for red meat and the Fox evening lineup to test whether or not down is still up.
Happy to be of service, britgirls!
I think your experience is very interesting, and is a lot more universal than we are being told. If I had a lawn and put up signs, my message would be quite mixed too, as I am voting all Dem downticket!
stodgie, on October 24th, 2008 at 10:45 am Said:
after this is past there is no reason why hillary can’t rise again. in fact i’d say the forces of the future are very much in her favor. she needs to think about that. she needs to think about the future of her fellow americans and not the dimocrat party. (i use the term dimocrat to show lack of respect).
What do you expect her to do to show that she is thinking about her fellow americans and not the D party?
Kim: Believe me, it is nothing more than “a lick and a promise”. Just enough to keep the Board of Health at bay.
TheRealKim, on October 24th, 2008 at 11:11 am Said:
Kim, that’s hillarious!!
let me add this also. i am now more certain of a mccain win that i have been. no i am not even at third base on it because i well remember 2000 and 2004. but i see real hope now. i despise these pollsters and their boot licking.
i am in hopes in my heart that hillary will come through and be the new leader this country so desperately needs. i am angry with her right now due to her campaigning for obama. promises to do that in face of what is going on in the world? no, that’s not acceptable to me. country before party always! fdr, truman, lincoln, washington all had the courage and leadership to stand up and be counted. hillary can do no less.
downticket, i expect her to talk about the average american. i expect her to discuss the things that won in the primaries. i expect her to say she will work to see the democrats do that. she doesn’t have to work so dang hard for that pathetic loser either.
look the democrats who despise her will continue to do so no matter what she does. she will get their support by keeping ours. simple as that! hillary is a smart politican. she can give support in a tepid manner but still keep her so called promise. and the obats? they’ll despise her no matter what she does.
Nothing will change until a creditable voice arrives on the scene and decries sexism in all its forms. Until then, fasten your seatbelts because I fail to see anyone on the national scene who can lead that crusade.
Someone posted that they showed their boy toddlers women in all roles. I did the same with my son, however, I went a step further and told him that all ninjas were women.
Did he believe you?
If Mccain wins, I expect to see a new pandering to women voters from the Karl Roves on both sides.
Everyone – GREAT NEWS on the Presidential race from The Patriot Room. It will make you feel a lot better. Obama has spent $105 million in the first TWO WEEKS of October, and with two more weeks to go, McCain is in just as good shape as Obama cash-wise.
Link
Pat Johnson, on October 24th, 2008 at 11:33 am Said:
Nothing will change until a creditable voice arrives on the scene and decries sexism in all its forms. Until then, fasten your seatbelts because I fail to see anyone on the national scene who can lead that crusade.
_______________________________________________________
Pat, I agree. But at least McCain appears to be leading by example.
stodgie, on October 24th, 2008 at 11:32 am Said:
downticket, i expect her to talk about the average american. i expect her to discuss the things that won in the primaries. i expect her to say she will work to see the democrats do that. she doesn’t have to work so dang hard for that pathetic loser either.
If you are expecting her to stand up on a podium and talk about those issues then you will be waiting longer but if you expect her to act on them then she is already doing that. She is working on some of the issues she discussed during the campaign because those are the issues she has been supporting for a long time. She is just back to working in the shadows.
Obama has spent $105 million in the first TWO WEEKS
How do you spend all that cash in two weeks?
That story BDP posted is priceless!!!
I’m also one of those who thinks that Hillary will not be able to run for President again. Obviously if Obama wins she won’t challenge him in 4 years and in 8 years she’ll be – forgive me – too old. Look at how much is being made of McCain’s age. A woman of nearly that age will be in a worse position. And if Obama loses, Hillary will be held largely responsible by the media and by Obama’s enablers in the DNC. Donna Brazile didn’t lose her job after Gore lost his own home state after all! She’ll still be there, blaming Obama’s loss on Hillary and r*cism.
And I can not see any circumstance under which Hillary and Bill will switch to Independent. They are loyal Democrats, in spite of what their haters accused them of during the primaries. And I don’t know if I can see an Independent winning a national election without an endless supply of money (like Perot had.) The DNC and the RNC are still forces to be reckoned with. (Although I do think the DNC will be seriously weakened because Obama’s newly found supporters don’t give a crap about the party, while those who got thrown overboard during this election are not likely to all return.)
I am sure with this financial crisis, everyone is just chomping at the bit to send teh one some money.
Whew, but that Parker article is nasty. One of the lowest Palin attacks yet AND she succeeds in taking all women out with it. Why are such stupid people allowed to publish their half-baked opinions for a living?
Parker, honey, get a clue. That “brilliant” old geezer is a sexist. He suffers from a deeply ingrained prejudice that Camp Obama has played to which includes the antiquated notion that pretty woman are dumb. You see, the problem is that people who think that way, frankly, are none too bright. They may be book smart but they are neither deft or open-minded thinkers. You, on the other hand, just appear to have a helluva mean-streak when it comes to women who are smarter and prettier than yourself. And, trust me, you have my sympathy, because it must be very hard to carry around all that hate for so many people.
madamab,
Thanks for spelling out your theory. You could be right. I know I will be watching Hillary closely no matter what happens on Nov. 5.
I am late to the topic, but I just wanted to point out that the Catholic religion was not always sexist. Right after the Crucifixion women and men preached equally and gave communion.
Sexism came to the Catholic religion around 300 A.D. when the most politicized part of the church of Jesus decided to get really organized. They had to bring all the factions together, and the Mary factions out by calling her a whore.
The other “fringe” factions, such as gnostics, were attacked and wiped out. There are many gospels that were not included in the final version of the bible that give these histories.
But it doesn’t matter to this discussion because the end result is the same. I just wanted to point out that the sexism in the Catholic religion is not because it is not a true religion, but because it has been tainted by corrupt men over time.
NEW POST UP!!!
jennie, on October 24th, 2008 at 11:56 am Said:
I just wanted to point out that the sexism in the Catholic religion is not because it is not a true religion, but because it has been tainted by corrupt men over time.
_____________________________________________________
Thanks for this, jennie.
RD: Thank you for another wonderful post. As usual you are spot on and I am sick of this crap.
urgetocompute: It has always been a pet peeve of mine that the two oldest religions (jewish, catholic) that I am comfortable with treat women differently than men. It is not logical.
That is why I investigated and found out the Catholic religion was initially an equal opportunity religion. I keep hoping they go back to their roots, and there are some priests who support this.
sorry if this is old, but it makes me sick
http://www.redstate.com/diaries/redstate/2008/oct/22/lets-pretend-to-kill-sarah-palin/
STAND UP,STAND UP AND FIGHT,FIGHT FOR THIS COUNTRY,DONT SHOW FEAR DONT SHOW DESPAIR STAND UP ,STAND UP AND FIGHT.WHAT WOULD THIS COUNTRY BE TODAY IF THE IRISH BRIGADE AT THE STONE WALL AT GETTYSBURG HAD JUST DECIDED TO QUIT,WHAT WOULD THIS COUNTRY BE IF ALL THOSE YOUNG AMERICANS HADNT JUMPED OUT OF AIRPLANES AND WADED THROUGH BLOODY SURF ON JUNE THE 6TH,AND HAD REFUSED TO GO BECAUSE IT WAS TOO HARD.WHAT WOULD THIS COUNTRY BE IF A BUNCH OF ILL CLOTHED FREEZING YOUNG MEN HADNT SAID NUTS AND GAVE UP.WE AS AMERICANS WHO LOVE THIS COUNTRY HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE BUT STAND UP AND FIGHT AND FIGHT TILL OUR LAST BREATH.WE CAN DO NO LESS.
B, Your post comes across as proselytizing to me. I usually try not to be rude, but what a load of cr@p! I find your post incredibly offensive and it really belongs on another board.
I’m with you, gxm. wtf
wiliam weld just endorsed the O. what is with these repubs endorising? mawm says he thinks they’re getting paid. I agree.
garychaplehill, yep. It’s just more Obamaganda. Paid product placement.
What I don’t understand is why they think support from people who previously endorsed BUSH will garner more votes. Any thinking person would make the connection, hey, if they’re switching parties to endorse Obama then doesn’t that make Obama the next Bush… I’m wondering if their internals show that conservative voters can be swayed to vote against McCain?
Otherwise it makes no apparent sense.
“the Catholic religion was not always sexist”
Nor did it always oppose abortion. That’s a very recent change in the church, a fact that anti-choice Catholics ignore willfully (and one that really makes my head spin) when they act as if it’s some dictate written in the church’s foundation. It was not until the late 1800s that the church became anti-abortion (before that it permitted abortions in the first trimester).
downticket, i hope that this working in the shadows is true. i truly do! however being a honest and outspoken person for the comman man is ABSOLUTELY MANDATORY at the present time. there is no excuse for the degree of politicing she has done for obama. it makes me sick! i still like her and hope to hear and see things that reinforce the support i gave her. she won’t win much in the senate by being passive and yelling yeah team when told to do so.
to be of importance in the years ahead hillary needs the support of the millions of men and women of all colors that supported her in the primaries and still hope for more from her on a national level. if they begin to feel she isn’t there for them and it is yeah democrats all the time, then look for them to start looking for another voice.
she can have a bully pullpit and use it for our welfare. if she supports legislation and the obama/biden/pelosi/reid group doesn’t, then she needs us to got to the phones and faxes for her. it is that simple. bill has spoken of that as well in a veiled way.
gxm17,
I’m sorry you see it that way, as that was not my intent.
I was merely trying to share how it is most often misrepresented, especially by those in the church.
stodgie at 1:26: I agree completely:
“to be of importance in the years ahead hillary needs the support of the millions of men and women of all colors that supported her in the primaries and still hope for more from her on a national level. if they begin to feel she isn’t there for them and it is yeah democrats all the time, then look for them to start looking for another voice.
she can have a bully pullpit and use it for our welfare. if she supports legislation and the obama/biden/pelosi/reid group doesn’t, then she needs us to got to the phones and faxes for her. it is that simple. bill has spoken of that as well in a veiled way.”
Naomi Judd campaigning with Sarah Palin in Missouri today! Awesome! The rally in Springfield, MO just finished up and it was HUGE!
Awesome thrad posted over at NQ today…
Sisters! Remember Then and Do Not Forget Now. Or Pay The Price.
Link: http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/10/24/sisters-remember-then-and-do-not-forget-now-or-pay-the-price/
America is Rocking the Vote for Country First!!
McCain-Palin ‘08
Hillary ‘12
[...] Friday: If Obama doesn’t condemn misogyny, we will resist (by riverdaughter at The Confluence) The Democratic party has been revealed to take no real interest in the wishes of women. 18 million voters, many of them women for Hillary Clinton, were easily dismissed and their votes relegated to the circular file… They are so used to taking us for granted that they feel they don’t need to try to win us over and they have no comprehension of the damage they have done to their most faithful constituency… That is why we resist the Democratic party this year. We want real change and we’re not going to get it with Barack Obama as president after he has unleashed the monster of sexism that lurked beneath a thin veneer of comity. It is on his shoulders to do something about it. We hold him personally responsible because misogyny sells and he has reaped the benefits all season long at our expense. [...]
I would prefer we women do the condemning and wield our electoral power to say HEY DEM’s UNACCEPTABLE FOUL your on notice that you have caused great harm. Worth remembering, where we go, goes the winner, period, their is no demographic larger or more powerful we just need to ACT like it.
Please see http://tdg.typepad.com/heidi_lis_potpourri/2008/10/free-speech-jayz-is-definitely-what-is-called-for—will-you-please-let-senator-obama-know.html
I have posted this at Real Clear Politics (where I recently put up one of RD’s posts, and that received over 40 votes – one of the “most voted upon” in the 7 day period during which it was posted). RCP tends to be male dominated and by voting there for articles that focus on sexism and misogyny we can draw attention to the problem to people who otherwise might not think about it.
So if you are so inclined please consider going to http://readerarticles.realclearpolitics.com/?period=all and vote for the piece entitled:
“Free speech, JayZ, is definitely what is called for – will you please let Senator Obama know?”
Another great post river daughter, thank you. I can’t even watch Mad Men, it’s so right on. brrrrr… I sometimes thing Mad Men got the production green lite in order to smooth Barry’s way. The whole JFK thing, pushed from the beginning, seemed too much a coincidence. Guilt free misogyny is a huge part of that myth.
River daughter and everyone else:
I’m an archconservative Catholic who has nevertheless been enjoying the discussions of you good PUMA folks and has, till now, been content to lurk in the background and learn a thing or two. But I can stay silent no longer about the really historically baseless and frankly scandalous charges about the Church made here which must be corrected. First, the Catholic Church is, in no sense, in no way shape or form, sexist. Its theological position on the ordination of women is, quite simply, that it *does not have the authority* to authorize a change to the ordained priesthood that Christ Himself did not authorize to begin with. Neither is its stance on abortion a recent development–as it was clearly taught in a 1st century Christian document the Didache. This isn’t a theological board, so I’ll leave it at that. The position has *absolutely* nothing to do with women being supposedly inferior, because the Catholic Church teaches nothing of the sort.
One thing that PUMAs *MUST* understand in this discussion is if you make us conservative religious folks in this country your enemies, you will never be able to do anything to alter the downward spiral of misogyny. Period.
There was a time–and I remember it well–when the feminist movement in this country and religious folks were partners against the degradation of women by pornography. And then came Camille Paglia–whom I like on other issues–and we parted ways.
Much to the chagrin of many of you, I and many like me will remain ever the implacable foe of abortion. But I will stand toe to toe with any PUMA and defend the sacred honor of womanhood, and I know many other Christians will stand in that breach as well.
I beg of you, if you are committed to the integrity and the honor of womanhood and not merely ideology–as you have so ably proven over the last few months–do not now turn against people who as devoted to the cause of women as you are, who hate misogyny not in spite of their religion but rather because of it. I’m not even saying you have to agree with us theologically. But at least try to understand us, don’t believe everything you were told about us, and just think about the fact that many of the caricatures you may have been told about Christianity were by the very same people who have sold your party’s soul.
stodgie, on October 24th, 2008 at 1:21 pm Said:
downticket, i hope that this working in the shadows is true. i truly do! however being a honest and outspoken person for the comman man is ABSOLUTELY MANDATORY at the present time. there is no excuse for the degree of politicing she has done for obama. it makes me sick! i still like her and hope to hear and see things that reinforce the support i gave her. she won’t win much in the senate by being passive and yelling yeah team when told to do so.
When I say working in the shadows I mean Hillary working like she did before the primary season started. She doesn’t always make herself the center of attention. She went back to working. You probably didn’t know this but she has been working like hell since she suspended. Hillary works for the common man. She always has. Nothing has changed and this is something people don’t understand. Hillary is no different today than she was two years ago. Hillary promised over and over during the primary that she would campaign for Obama. What do people want from her? She is keeping her promise.
stodgie, on October 24th, 2008 at 1:26 pm Said:
to be of importance in the years ahead hillary needs the support of the millions of men and women of all colors that supported her in the primaries and still hope for more from her on a national level. if they begin to feel she isn’t there for them and it is yeah democrats all the time, then look for them to start looking for another voice.
Well, many of these same people have for years thought she was the she devil and didn’t think much of her so why is now different? For decades she has worked on improving people’s lives whether she was thanked for it or not. People have been looking somewhere else and Hillary has been there in the shadows working so why is now different? Is she supposed to change how she acts just because some people woke up to the fact that maybe she is not as evil as they thought she was?
Hillary is supporting Obama. As much as many don’t like it they have got to get used to it. She thinks she can achieve more of her agenda with a democratic president than a republican president. Whether that is true or not, Hillary believes it is better to elect a democrat than a republican.
she can have a bully pullpit and use it for our welfare. if she supports legislation and the obama/biden/pelosi/reid group doesn’t, then she needs us to got to the phones and faxes for her. it is that simple. bill has spoken of that as well in a veiled way.
Do you really think they will listen to you. No offence but how many people sent faxes and emails and phoned senators asking them not to support the $700 billion bailout? How many people called superdelegates and none of them listened.
well downticket, you make some good points. here is another point. we are not in normal times and i personally think if the dims run amuch, we’ll see civil unrest. we have to have a voice work for us in the public. to heck with hanging out in the shadows. and hilary might think it is better to elect a democrat, but i’d wager $50 with you right now she might not feel that way anymore.
we need people thinking about us and not their dang pathetic parties. i am sure you most sincere in your beliefs and i respect that. i just don’t agree. best wishes and let’s hope we are smiling after the election.
The Ashley Todd story appears to be a hoax. It didn’t happen that way.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/24/politics/main4544204.shtml
But it could have happened that way. Seems so real.
ID: For what it’s worth, I never believed it. The story had too many holes and the damn B was backwards. Like, if your did it in a mirror backwards. And an angry Obamabot isn’t going to just scratch. He’s going to leave scars.
Anyway, it’s all over now. Moving on….
Wow, Claud. I would beg to differ (respectfully) with your interpretation of the Catholic church’s teachings. I was raised in the Roman Catholic church and have since left it, for the most part. But the rest of my family still goes to church every Sunday, and on every Holy Day. My father was in the seminary for a year, his cousin was bishop in a major county, and both my great aunt and great uncle were clergy who left after Vatican II, so most of my life has been steeped in the Roman Catholic Church. I don’t want to further derail this very interesting thread, but if you are interested in discussing, I will gladly give you my email address.
Claude: I was baptised Catholic and made my 1st Communion. But my mother was a Jehovah’s Witness.
My fondest memories are going to mass on Sunday morning to St. Joseph’s church in Verona, PA with my grandparents. There is something serenely comforting about the rituals of the mass and the rosary.
But I’ve always thought that God needs all the help he can get and it isn’t logical for him to exclude one whole gender. I’ve been to Presbyterian services lead by female pastors and I have to say, the Catholic Church is really missing out. Some women were born to be pastors and leaders and comforters. I’m afraid that the Vatican’s opposition to women in the priesthood makes no sense to me. I understand the argument that Jesus only picked men as apostles but that ignores some of the gospels that didn’t make it into the New Testament that show that women, such as Mary Magdalen were *also* considered to be apostles.
I don’t know why the Pope and the church insist on this separation of the sexes. For all I know, it could be economics or logistics that is driving it. But I am absolutely convinced that *my* God did not intend to exclude women. It leaves her at a disadvantage.
robotpiggie, I would delighted to take the discussion off the thread, so we don’t try riverdaughter’s patience here.
Riverdaughter–I don’t want to derail this thread unless you want to have this discussion here. But I would encourage you to read the latest scholarship on the “alternative”/gnostic gospels which is in agreement that they are tinged with a despisal of not only the feminine but also sex in general. Here is a summary:
http://www.newmediaministries.org/DaVinciCode/GnosticFeminism_S.html
So these “gospels” do not argue the point of women apostles, and they are rather hostile to the feminine in general, contrary to what some very sloppy authors like Dan Brown have promulgated.
Admittedly if you only look at things like the priesthood it may look to the modern eye like the Catholic Church is sexist. But that’s too narrow and it’s not a fair appraisal. Presbyterians who have female pastors may well see us at the May procession crowning Mary Queen of Heaven and Earth and call that “Goddess worship”. Presbyterians don’t have abbesses, don’t have the rosary, nor do they have St. Catherine or St. Therese or St. Mary Magdelen as heavenly intercessors, nor do they have a Dante and Beatrice, nor do they have female religious who develop a whole theology of the “bride of Christ.” The feminine is deeply, deeply rooted in the Catholic religion.
Again, I’m not asking you to agree with the theology, but I do think that a sort of backhanded dismissal of the religion as automatically sexist does the cause an immense disservice. I love my wife and I love my mother and sister, and I frankly wouldn’t be in a religion that had me look at them as chattel or some sort of inferior being.
So, how’d that work out for ya?