Ladies, Are You Sure You Can Pull That Lever All By Yourself?

Debate Thoughts

Debate Thoughts

Yes, I forced myself to watch the debate last night. These things are painful to me, since I realize that no matter what happens, ONE of these two is going to be President. Crap! We deserved so much better this year, and we almost had it.

In any case, I thought this was the best debate. Bob Schieffer asked some idiotic questions, of course, and was blatantly favoring Obama in terms of time and slant, but for the first time, I felt we got a look at who these two men really were. The format was more intimate and allowed them to interact with each other more closely. This was inarguably John McCain’s strongest performance, and he had the best line of the night: “If you wanted to run against George Bush, you should have run for President four years ago.”

Indeed. But what really stood out for me was when the candidates started talking about Supreme Court judges and, by extension, Roe v. Wade and abortion. Take a deep breath, feminists. You’re not going to like this.

Let’s start with McCain’s answer.

SCHIEFFER: All right. Let’s stop there and go to another question. And this one goes to Senator McCain. Senator McCain, you believe Roe v. Wade should be overturned. Senator Obama, you believe it shouldn’t.

Could either of you ever nominate someone to the Supreme Court who disagrees with you on this issue? Senator McCain?

MCCAIN: I would never and have never in all the years I’ve been there imposed a litmus test on any nominee to the court. That’s not appropriate to do.

SCHIEFFER: But you don’t want Roe v. Wade to be overturned?

MCCAIN: I thought it was a bad decision. I think there were a lot of decisions that were bad. I think that decisions should rest in the hands of the states. I’m a federalist. And I believe strongly that we should have nominees to the United States Supreme Court based on their qualifications rather than any litmus test. Now, let me say that there was a time a few years ago when the United States Senate was about to blow up. Republicans wanted to have just a majority vote to confirm a judge and the Democrats were blocking in an unprecedented fashion.

We got together seven Republicans, seven Democrats. You were offered a chance to join. You chose not to because you were afraid of the appointment of, quote, “conservative judges.”

I voted for Justice Breyer and Justice Ginsburg. Not because I agreed with their ideology, but because I thought they were qualified and that elections have consequences when presidents are nominated. This is a very important issue we’re talking about.

Senator Obama voted against Justice Breyer and Justice Roberts on the grounds that they didn’t meet his ideological standards. That’s not the way we should judge these nominees. Elections have consequences. They should be judged on their qualifications. And so that’s what I will do.

I will find the best people in the world — in the United States of America who have a history of strict adherence to the Constitution. And not legislating from the bench.

SCHIEFFER: But even if it was someone — even someone who had a history of being for abortion rights, you would consider them?

MCCAIN: I would consider anyone in their qualifications. I do not believe that someone who has supported Roe v. Wade that would be part of those qualifications. But I certainly would not impose any litmus test.

For a Republican, that was an excellent answer. As we know, McCain is hamstrung by the religious right’s chokehold on his Party, and constrained to proclaim he wants Roe v. Wade overturned. But note how he brings up specific instances in which he voted for liberal justices because they were qualified, and states firmly that there will be NO litmus test for any Supreme Court nominee. Remember, the Senate must confirm anyone that McCain, as President, would nominate. If that august body chooses to nominate someone who is determined to overturn Roe v. Wade, then the Senate bears that responsibility.

But I believe it’s a moot point, since the Supreme Court has had the ability to overturn Roe v. Wade for years and has not done so. As Bush has clearly illustrated, the next wave of pushing against reproductive rights will come through Congress. Again, if our CongressCritters refuse to stand up to it, then they must answer for their own craven spinelessness. 

Here was Obama’s answer.

OBAMA: Well, I think it’s true that we shouldn’t apply a strict litmus test and the most important thing in any judge is their capacity to provide fairness and justice to the American people.

And it is true that this is going to be, I think, one of the most consequential decisions of the next president. It is very likely that one of us will be making at least one and probably more than one appointments and Roe versus Wade probably hangs in the balance (emphasis mine).

Now I would not provide a litmus test. But I am somebody who believes that Roe versus Wade was rightly decided. I think that abortion is a very difficult issue and it is a moral issue and one that I think good people on both sides can disagree on.

But what ultimately I believe is that women in consultation with their families, their doctors, their religious advisers, are in the best position to make this decision (emphasis mine). And I think that the Constitution has a right to privacy in it that shouldn’t be subject to state referendum, any more than our First Amendment rights are subject to state referendum, any more than many of the other rights that we have should be subject to popular vote.

OBAMA: So this is going to be an important issue. I will look for those judges who have an outstanding judicial record, who have the intellect, and who hopefully have a sense of what real-world folks are going through.

Didja catch that, ladies? First the veiled threat about Roe v. Wade, which events in the past eight years have proven to be fearmongering of the most despicable type. Then, Obama assumes that before making a decision about our own bodies and our own babies, we naturally “consult with” an entire committee of people. Does he actually know anyone who’s had to deal with this choice? (At least he has finally realized that some women are not Christian! Mr. Sensitivity has substituted the words “religious advisers” for the more exclusive word “pastors.”)

It never occurs to Senator Obama that women can make these decisions without “consulting with” anyone. It never occurs to Senator Obama that some women would not dream of going to any religious figures to ask whether or not to get an abortion, because some women are atheists or agnostic, or know that their “religious advisors” would not support them in their decision. (DUUUUHHHH.) And it never occurs to Senator Obama that some women are pregnant BY members of their families, and that going to their families would be the LAST thing they would do in that case. Anyone who is at all familiar with the attempts by the religious right to try to force women to get the consent of their parents before getting an abortion, would be aware of that fact. (Double DUUUUUHHHHHH.)

But here’s the worst part. Let’s pretend Obama is right about Roe v. Wade, and that it does ZOMG “hang in the balance.” Where is his pledge to protect it this legislation, which is so important to him? He said very clearly that there is NO LITMUS TEST for his judicial appointments.

Chew on that, Obama apologists. Roe v. Wade has just as good a chance of being overturned under President Obama as it does under President McCain because there is NO LITMUS TEST.

Well, Barack darling, you’ll find there are a lot of decisions women can make all by themselves. And you’ll see how we decide on Election Day.

Oh, and one more thing:

What Joseph Cannon said.

Cross-posted at Partizane

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273 Responses

  1. As always direct and to the point!!

    Yes, I noticed Obama’s parrying.

  2. I believe he was being sarcastic in regards to arguments and statements Obama has made in the past related to his position on foetuses aborted live.

  3. I did a write in vote for Hillary today in
    Tennessee. It felt sooooooooooo good.

  4. Obama had an ok response.

    I have just come to the understanding that despite the Democratic Party’s talk about being for abortion rights, they have yet to do anything about them. The easiest way is to pass legislation. I’m not big on politics so maybe someone else can tell when was the last time they actually tried to pass a law to keep abortion rights on the books.

    Instead they keep the law precariously on the books. And every four years dangle over women’s heads like meat and expect them to jump.

    You are right. Abortion rights would be no better off under Obama than McCain. The real way to secure rights is for liberals to band together with conservative women of a like mindset (don’t laugh. they do exist) and push for abortion legislation from both parties.

    It’s idiotic to think that one party, one ideology is going to uphold that right, especially when they have been so lackluster in the past. If the Sarah Palin is a c**t shirts are any indicator, despite what some progressives think, they do not hold many abortion rights people in the highest regards. Women are expendable to them. And they will only come kissing your behinds in the next election, with the same meat on the pole. Trust me.

  5. repost from downstairs:

    this is anecdotal, so of course to be taken with a grain of salt, but I’ll take any encouraging info. this is from a comment section of the local news channel, wral

    Just returned from Early Voting in Cary NC. The line was absolutely HUGE. Its the first day for us to vote early in NC.

    Heres my ‘intel report”

    The line was LONG and wrapped around and around. Very unusual for us in this area. The volunteers were very professional and very good. No sense of being overwhelmed even though they were swamped. I asked if they were surprised by the turnout.. they said “VERY..but it makes the day go fast.”

    Who was in the line…? LOTS AND LOTS of McCain supporters. I base this on the conversations around us, and buttons and bumper stickers. It took 45 mins to go through a line of approx: 200 people at 12:00 est. I am estimating only.. Ages: 18-30 – Approx 5% Ages: 31-40- Approx 40% Ages: 41-50 – Aprox 30% Ages: 51 + Approx 25%

    You can run the demographics – ZIP is 27523

    Hope this helps and encourages YALL !! Country FIRST!! McCain /Palin 08

  6. Gary, 27523 is Apex where we used to live.

  7. xax -

    You are right. Abortion rights would be no better off under Obama than McCain. The real way to secure rights is for liberals to band together with conservative women of a like mindset (don’t laugh. they do exist) and push for abortion legislation from both parties.

    I could not agree with you more! I am not laughing, I am agreeing.

    The untold story of Hillary’s candidacy was, in my mind, the number of Republican women who would have voted for her.

    This is why the 30% Solution is so important. The more women we have in government, the more we can get issues like this addressed.

  8. wow – did not catch that !!! Love this information. I must share with others.

    This post keeps me sane !!!

    If any one here makes it to the San Francisco area – please let me know drinks on me !!!!

  9. Mawm – Apex? I have a friend who lives there! I’m sure he’s voting Obama, though. I’ll bet his wife will vote McCain!
    ;-)

  10. OT, but I just read that Murtha called his own constituency r@cist? WTF?

  11. I’m anti-abortion, and truthfully I’d like to see Roe v Wade overturned, however, I agree with McCain’s stance on judges. Pick whoever is qualified and will uphold the Constitution, not some idiot who will try to legislate form the bench.

    If Bush didn’t attempt to go after Roe v Wade even in 2004, and we had a decent shot at overturning it, I really don’t see anything that will happen differently in a McCain administration. Ultimately, it will still come down to a Democractic Majority Senate to confirm a judge.

  12. Sal: There aren’t many that are pro-abortion. It is not like we women say, I’m gonna get me one. It is more about choice. I wish there were no abortions, but we have the right to make our own choices. I support someone’s right to be pro-life, and would hope they would be as supportive of someone who has a different viewpoint, it is choice.

  13. mawm..lol It said Cary, so I didn’t even think about it. and for those who don’t know Cary, it is about as middle class as you can get. Suburbia in the extreme. seems like they’re motivated just as much as the one’s that gallup has been oversampling to compensate for obama enthusiasm, doesn’t it?

  14. I just submitted a comment and it totally vanished

  15. Oh wait there was a delay or something – very weird.

  16. Kim,

    Point taken. I still don’t agree with the choice of doing it, but I understand where you’re coming from. In any case, that is your Constituional right, and unless it is overturned, you should be allowed to exercise that right as you see fit.

  17. ***Can someone help me? How do I post a picture for my icon?

    Thanks

  18. I know Cary and it is a little more than middle class

  19. Sal – I am pro-freedom. Every woman should make that decision for herself. The issue should not be used as a political blackmail tool, which it has been for decades now.

    Kim is right, as usual. No woman goes skipping down the street, trying to decide whether to have an abortion or go get a mani-pedi. It’s just that we don’t appreciate the government trying to make that decision for us.

  20. I also can’t stand it when Obama says that abortion is a moral issue. democrats don’t (or at least didn’t used to ) legislate morality.

  21. Destardi – Go to the WordPress home page and search the Help page. You will get great instructions.
    :-)

  22. For me it is not about “Abortion rights”. It is the right to control my body. I am a man, but I can see the implications of allowing the government to decide what you can and can’t do to your own body could affect me in the future.

    Let’s work to educate people and give them the tools (birth control) to make their bodies do what they want them to.

  23. It is a private and personal decision. I am pro choice, but I deeply respect the strength of women like Sarah Palin who give birth to a special needs child, or a woman who gives a child up for adoption.

  24. Destardi-if can do it, you can do it. Hell I still can’t do a site.

  25. Lambert at Corrente came up with Formerly Known as Democrats Party–FKD for short.

    (To get the full meaning, pronouce the initials as a word. Well known word. As in “We are so FKD.” )

    (I wrote that bcz it took me awhile to get it!)

  26. madamb,

    My issue with it stems from my belief that life begins at conception, however the Constitution says otherwise by virtue of Roe v Wade. Unless that changes (and I don’t believe it will), I see it as a right and choice that every woman should be able to exercise as they see fit.

    I can agree with you on the government thing, they need to make less decisions for us in general. :D

  27. simofish – You rock! I’m so glad I can help out a little bit.
    :-)

  28. BTW,

    Gary, I agree with you. The abortion is a moral thing is a total cop-out by politicans who are too chickenhearted to tell us what they really feel.

  29. Sal – As long as we respect each others’ beliefs and don’t try to impose them on each other, I think we are fine!

  30. Sal: Bingo!! That is my biggest issue with the Republican Party. They scream less government in our lives, then want to dictate personal issues like whether or not I can have an abortion or what constitutes marriage. These are private affairs and do not need government intervention.

  31. Why thanks Sal for your generosity — it is my constitutional right to autonomy unless it is overruled — uh, NO! It is my right as a human being to have autonomy. The issue has nothing to do with babies or abortions & with the right of women to have the same control over their bodies as men have. I personally would never have an abortion but guess what? That is MY CHOICE. The constitution did not give me that right — I was BORN WITH IT.

  32. madamab, on October 16th, 2008 at 2:45 pm Said:
    TheRealKim
    ———————-

    Thanks people!

  33. Should read:

    The issue has nothing to do with babies or abortions BUT with the right of women to have the same control over their bodies as men have.

  34. I stubbed my little toe and I think I broke it. Ow Ow Ow

  35. votermom — can you wiggle it? If so, not broken.

  36. Obama, like most political males, is an idiot. The decision rests soley between the woman and her doctor. She does not need a permission note from a tribunal made up of a group of people in the first place but considering that each case and individual involved is different, his inane remarks come off as a continuation of patriarchal dominance.

    To hell with these jokers. What’s next, insisting that gays participate in hetero marriages for the sake of “the family”? Give me an effen break!

  37. Obama and the Dems do not consider abortion rights important. If they did, Roberts and Alito would not be justices. So spare me the Dems care about abortion rights BS. This is a pattern that has been going on for years with the Dems. Slowly but surely the Dems have abandoned issues that are important to women. Our rights have been chiseled away. IMO the party ran off the rails this year with its overt misogyny and selection of that great misogynist, Obama. (Hey, Obama, do I need to speak to my family and pastor if I need to decide to get my tonsils out also, since my brain just cannot fathom such difficult medical decisions. What a load of CR@P)

    It is time for women to wake up. We will never get anyone that champions our issues unless it is a woman. BTW women’s rights are human rights.

    And for all you Obamabots, if you really cared about women’s issues (Abortion included) you should have voted for Hillary Clinton.

  38. I can sorta wiggle it but it hurts. It’s probably just bruised.

  39. Angie – I agree with you, but I doubt Sal will ever do so. Sal thinks abortion is murder, if I am reading him/her right, so there is really nowhere to go from that perspective.

    I think it’s best to agree to disagree and let it lie. Just my NSHO.

  40. votermom: I did the same thing a few weeks ago. Painful! And there is not a damned thing you can do about it as it heals on its own. Ouch!!!!

  41. PJ –

    She does not need a permission note from a tribunal made up of a group of people in the first place but considering that each case and individual involved is different, his inane remarks come off as a continuation of patriarchal dominance.

    EXACTLY!!!!

  42. votermom,
    ice, ice, baby!

  43. If Scientists find a way to test for gayness before birth, I wonder if the evangelicals would change their minds about the issue.

    Even though I am gay, I would not. It is still a woman’s choice.

  44. madamb-

    Then, Obama assumes that before making a decision about our own bodies and our own babies, we naturally “consult with” an entire committee of people.Does he actually know anyone who’s had to deal with this choice?

    I thought the same thing the moment he said that! I was like, “Wait, so he thinks women call some kind of Reproductive Pow Wow?”

    That ONE:

    I believe is that women in consultation with their families, their doctors, their religious advisers, are in the best position to make this decision..

    Are in the best position? Are? ARE? Are as in a word denoting Plural Consensus? Grrrr.

    A woman has the right to confer with whomever she pleases, but to assume or infer that she relies on anything other than her OWN conscience… well, makes me mad!

    Great post MadamB!

  45. I hate coming in at the middle of a conversation like this:

    I can sorta wiggle it but it hurts. It’s probably just bruised.

  46. And for all you Obamabots, if you really cared about women’s issues (Abortion included) you should have voted for Hillary Clinton.

    Oh God, I can’t count the number of times I’ve typed that. Thank you for saying it again.

  47. ice, ice, baby!
    LOL. Thanks for the suggestion!

    ggm — I stubbed my toe and I am being all mamadrama and crying about it. :)

  48. How about this: Before a man is allowed to have “relations” with a woman, he has to sit before a panel of judges and argue his case. Is it a one night stand? A mercy “you know what”? A commitment sort of? A debt owed?

    Then he must accept to pledge that should this encounter lead to pregnancy he accepts any and all responsibility for this child in the future and will abide by the wishes of the mother. If having to do this each and every time his libido reaches the threshold does not lead to a complete acceptance of a woman’s right to choose, nothing will.

    Equal responsibility is the name of this game.

  49. Would everyone be so kind as faxGov. Strickland (1-614-466-9354) and tell him to get rid of Jennifer Brunner please? That’s the woman standing between the authorities and 200,000 new Ohio voter registrations.

  50. madamb, therealkim,

    yes it’s a very volatile issue, but I do enjoy expressing my views and hearing others counterpoints about it. Truth be told, me and my ex-gf had two abortions when we were teenagers. We had a very bad experience with Planned Parenthood, and it was something which factored into our breakup. Though I guess I should thank them, since my wife is a megamillion times better for me. :)

    angienc,

    I didn’t mean to sound condescending or patronizing, and if I came off that way, then I’d like to apologize. That is simply the way I see it. I will respect your choices and rights even if I disagree with it.

  51. Sal – I get where you’re coming from on abortion. But for me just the thougth of the government having the right to even be involved in that decision is frightening. Because like words, decisions can be turned against you. Just as I don’t believe the government should have the power to force a woman to bear a child against her will, I also don’t believe the government should have the power to impose mandadory abortions. I just don’t want to opent that Pandora’s Box.

    What has always bugged me about so-called “Right to Lifers”, and about many of my fellow choice supporters, is the inability to think beyond the actual procedure. I actually said to one, “you’ve spent a lot of time and money trying to make it illegal, but what have you done to make it unneccessary?”

    One thing I really admire about Palin is her committment to the group Feminists for Life. Now, they are an anti-abortion group, but their focus is on eliminating many of the reasons women have abortions.

  52. Sec. of State, an Obot. This is nuts.

  53. Sal,
    may I ask if you are male or female?

  54. Regency,

    Not really nuts. Florida suffered under Katherine Harris for years. Lesson is either extreme is bad.

  55. Sal has a right to an opinion but I liken the right to choose as being right up there with lima beans. I hate them with a passion and would never include them in my food shopping, but I do not hold it against anyone who does. It it the freedom of choice that makes this so.

  56. Sal – I appreciate your openmindedness. And Angie, you know I love ya, you awesome lady, you!!!

    PJ – I think we should let the government and the women in a man’s life decide whether he should have a vasectomy or not. If life begins at conception, then surely we cannot trust men with the momentous decisions that their sperm will foist upon them.

  57. madamab: Agreed. And he can always have it reversed if he has proven worthy of becoming a reliable father. Otherwise, snip, snip.

  58. Julie,

    I wholeheartedly agree about decisions which could hurt ones side even if it’s initlaly good for them. As a practical matter, I was completely against FISA even though many conservatives were for it, because I knew that if that kind of power is put into the wrong hands, it would be a disaster for our country. To this day, I still cannot believe that Pelosi and Obama capitulated on this. I was actually thinking that they would be of some use. A complete lack of regard for our Constitution.

    madamb,
    agreed also. It’s one of those agree to disagree issues. We all have the same thing in mind, to not have our country be run by a dangerous and shady character whom we know nothing about.

    damn wedge issues always manage to screw people up. I remember 2004 how Kerry lost the election because of wedge issues and we had to go through 4 more years of Dubya.

  59. Pat, LOL

  60. mine are all dead from being fat and wearing jeans that are too tight.

  61. Sal – Can you believe after 8 years of Bush, this is our choice? Obama or McCain? I think that’s why we are all so depressed – I don’t think either side is really getting what we want this year…

    SIIIIIIGGGGGHHHHHH….

  62. The abortion issue is how men divide women and keep them from assuming their political power.

  63. Roe-v-Wade is a privacy decision. Getting wrapped around the axle on “morality”, “choice”, “life”, etc… is a way to get around government not giving us privacy to control our own bodies.

    If you take this and consider FISA… it is not encouraging.

  64. Obama always wants both sides and the middle, too. There is a fundamental incoherence about him, whether it is in his verbal meanderings or in his scattershot policy-related statements. He dangles the Roe v. Wade argument in front of us, then runs around to the other side and asserts that a woman needs to consult with others on such a decision.

    This is what I find so infuriating and frustrating about him. He does not have a coherent, thought-out, logical set of beliefs, and I am not even sure why that is so. Is it because he is always trying to pander to both sides? Is it because he is so empty of conviction? Is it because he is hiding his true beliefs? I just don’t know.

  65. OT but I am hosting my Book Club on Tuesday night and have already gotten 4 e-mails from 4 different members cautioning me not to serve potato chips, cheese and crackers, dessert of any kind, or cold cuts because they are on diets.

    Am thinking of just throwing a bag of Kittles and Bits onto the dining room table and letting them help themselves. The nerve! If you don’t want it, don’t eat it but stop imposing your “diet” concerns on the rest of us. One even indicated what I should put in the salad. Keyriste on a cracker!!

  66. Yo Sal,
    Do you mind saying if you are male or female?

  67. pander to all sides

  68. PJ: maybe it should be a pot-luck and they can bring whatever rabbit food amuses them!

  69. Jules – I think Obama believes in nothing but himself. He will never solidify into anything coherent. He is just ectoplasm.

    PJ – LOLOLOLOLOL

    May I suggest a pot luck?

    Mawm, jjmtacoma – You were mindmelding, and were both exactly right.

  70. So our choices are John McCain or another Republican. Looks like the Democrats decided not to send a dog to this race.

  71. jjmtacoma: Note that none of them suggested I hold back on the booze. There are 14 of us and it is nothing at the end of the evening to have 6 empty wine bottles sitting on the counter.

    And one of them already has suggested for our November meeting that we might want to consider reading Bill O’Reilly’s latest book. Was there a shortage of Hitler biographies that prompted this suggestion? Holy Mother of God!

  72. Pat, what’s the book?

    You should serve dill pickles pickles. Zero calories, iirc.
    Then on another plate, brownies, pie, everything yummy. And eat from that while they eat the pickles.

  73. Regency – Yup. No Democrat, just an Obama for America, whatever the h*ll that is.

  74. votermom,

    Keep a shoe on to support the toe. Someone needs to cook, clean, and do the laundry for you for at the least the next six weeks.

  75. Pat- Why don’t you supply tools and they can wire their jaws closed when they arrive. I note this may make book group discussion more difficult, but we all need to make choices in this world.

  76. “The abortion issue is how men divide women and keep them from assuming their political power.”

    The sad thing is that it’s working.

  77. And one of them already has suggested for our November meeting that we might want to consider reading Bill O’Reilly’s latest book.
    Then whoever hosts the Nov mtg should serve falafel.

  78. angela,

    I am a conservative male from NY who’s been lurking on this website for a while now. I wound up here a while back because I was fascinated by the Democractic primaries, and also a fan of Hillary as she is my Senator and someone I thought was a shoo-in for the nomination because of her qualifications and pragmatism. Sigh, to think that was almost a year ago. I still don’t understand how the Democrats let this snake oil salesman get the nomination.

    My disagreement with abortion s a combination of my views on conception and my personal experiences with Planned Parenthood when my ex-gf went in for an abortion.

    Pat,
    With a couple of added sentences, your position on lima beans actually almost sounds like my current position on abortion :D

  79. Thanks for the Gov Strickland fax #, Regency.

    I just called Brunner’s office at 614-466-2655 and left a message with an Obot. She scoffed with disdain.

    Next move- place everyone on hold forever so that we will give up. (Nice tactic used in past).

    There is email, but they will probably wind up trashed.

  80. O’Reilly, PJ? Good Gawd!

    Why not Scooter Libby while they’re at it?

  81. jjmtacoma,

    100% correct. It is all about privacy. This is one of the reasons why I was so upset about the FISA vote.

  82. As far as I can tell Obama is copying the worse tactics of the Repubs. Brunner is the dem version of Harris.
    Now what is the Obama version of hanging chads?
    I’m just waiting to hear what– besides ACORN– is going to be the hanging chad.

  83. This month’s selection is “Monique of the Mangoes”a memoir about a midwife in Haiti. One of the members goes there yearly with her church for a week and thought we might like it. You would not believe the “howlings” coming from the others about this selection but we do manage to read whatever has been agreed to.

    I want to do Ann Frank as I think her voice, especially during this election season, is relevant. Two of the members are Jewish and I think I can push it. She is one of my hero’s and I think the world lost so much by her untimely death.

  84. madamb,

    Well I actually wanted McCain to win in 2000 and left the Republican party for 8 years because of what I thought were dirty and underhanded smear tactics by Bushie’s cronies on his character.

    I fully expected McCain to lose the nomination to Romney (who I would never vote for) but I was ok with it because I know Hillary is a pragmatic individual, and was looking hard to vote for her in the GE, so i started sniffing the Hillary sites and found this one and some others like NoQuarter. My guy won the nomination, but I was completely blown away when Obama managed to win despite Hillary’s qualifications.

  85. Good post, madameb. I am pro-choice and am quite comfortable with McCain’s answer- it was thoughtful, and as you say, about the best he could do without alienating his base. Sir Barks-a-lot’s answer was passable, but the whole idea of any of his answers being important is moot, in my opinion, as I don’t believe a word he says, good or bad.

  86. Sal,
    thank you for responding to my question.

  87. madamab: Can you stand it with the O’Reilly book? One of the members is right out of the 60′s. A true radical. She went ballistic when the suggestion was made online a few weeks back. I thought she was going to go through the computer. Lucky for her, and us, she will be in Italy next week.

    I think I would have had a riot on my hands. And certainly if I cut back on the food as well. I know she would be very, very unhappy. She is a PUMA at heart!

  88. liliam – I just expect any Dem to say “Safe, legal and rare” and STFU. I cannot believe Obama is trying to mess with that this year, just to appeal to voters that will never, EVER go to him.

  89. Sal: You got my point. In the end it is the person’s right to choose in either instance.

  90. madamab: “ectoplasm” — good one! Can’t we call Ghostbusters or something?

    mawm: “pandering to all sides” — I guess in Obamaspeak “pandering” = “postpartisan transcendence”

    Obama is the annoying driver who straddles two lanes, with an Obama sticker on his car.

  91. Honora; As long as they can get to the wine through straws I doubt wiring of the jaws would bother them.

  92. Roe v.s. Wade, for us conservatives, is not about abortion. It is about the Supreme Court making law (which is a job reserved for federal and state legislatures) rather than interpreting it or validating its constitutionality. Abortion will never be illegal. But maybe we can stop putting people on the Supreme Court who have their own agenda and instead choose legal scholars who understand the limits of the judicial branch.

    McCain’s answer was perfect, in my opinion. But this issue has been used by demagogues over and over again to manipulate voters. I see the Obama machine is trying to do just that. Expect the frantic calls from Planned Parenthood, NARAL, NOW, etc.

    I thought McCain creamed BO last night. My favorite line was McCain’s slip: Senator Government!

  93. PJ – LOL!

    I would love to be a fly on the wall at one of your parties…
    :-)

  94. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. I figured out in the 60′s that many liberal men support women’s rights in only area, and that’s pro-choice/ birth control because it permits them to screw around w/o consequences.

    I’m pro-choice Christian, and I wouldn’t trust Obama on this issue any more than I’d trust him to walk my dog across the street.

  95. madameb- do you think part of obama’s annoying ambivalence is to placate his radical black theologian base, who are anti-abortion as well as anti-gay, or does he just not give a d-mn?

  96. I want to do Ann Frank as I think her voice, especially during this election season, is relevant. Two of the members are Jewish and I think I can push it. She is one of my hero’s and I think the world lost so much by her untimely death.
    Oh, Ann Frank, such a powerful voice. I watched a documentary once,also (was it BBC) that showed what happened after. So heartbreaking.

    Pat, by the way, have you read Farthing by Jo Walton? It’s a whodunit mystery set in an alternate 1940s Britain where Britain had made peace with Hitler. Creepy look at how British fascism might have looked like (if not for Churchill).

  97. votermom: Is “Farthing” good? Sounds like something I’d like to read.

  98. I still say that the only way that abortion can become an issue that involves people not physically of the body around the uterus holding the fetus specifically in question, would be if every man’s penis becomes joint property with every human being in his life.

  99. madamab: You would fit in perfectly! The group is diverse but we have a lot of fun. And we do it without carving up other people but we have been known to do that too!

  100. parentofed,

    I don’t think I’ve heard that view of liberal men before, but I think there might be a grain of truth to that.

  101. Let us not forget that NARAL backed Obama during the primaries, not Clinton. And all the women’s organizations are backing Obama in the general election, not a ticket of two pro-choice women. No doubt if asked to comment on Obama’s answer they would all come up with some very creative explanations for what Obama meant to say.

    Also, off-topic, but did you see that Secret Service investigated the story that someone at a McCain rally shouted “kill him” when Obama’s name was mentioned? And they have found no evidence that this happened. There were multiple Secret Service agents in the crowd, along with other law enforcement officials, and none of them heard anything. But the reporter who wrote this story says he stands by his report. Why isn’t the MSM covering the fact that Secret Service is debunking this thing?

  102. Johnny Mac is running with The Plumber.

    Every “Joe the Plumber” Must Fight Against Senator Obama Before It’s Too Late

    If you are a small business owner and don’t want the government to spread your wealth, let us know. Join our “Joe the Plumber” coalition by sending your story to FLJoethePlumber@JohnMcCain.com or by calling our “Joe the Plumber” hotline at 850-391-3304. Tell us how raising taxes and “spreading the wealth around” will hurt your business. It’s important we stop these socialist-like plans to take your money and redistribute it.

  103. “The Farthing” sounds interesting. I may have to look that one up online at Amazon just for myself.

  104. Is “Farthing” good? Sounds like something I’d like to read.
    I highly recommend it!

  105. Regency: Jeez louise, but Jennifer Brunner is a crooked idiot. The always-interesting Hillbuzz has some old photos of that damn K Harris up, but at least “Pink Sugar” was more colorful.

    Hillbuzz also suggests someone should draw McCain/Palin as the new Mario & Luigi. Now that’s funny!

  106. Dave – That is a very interesting take on the issue.

    In all honesty, a lot of the issues regarding womens’ rights would be covered if we could ratify the ERA. It is like a big umbrella that would provide a lot of protection.

    It’s unbelievable to me that Congress passed it so long ago, but that it’s still not in the Constitution. Where has the Democratic Party been on that?

  107. yup. The choice is between McCain and a guy who will take whatever stand on whatever issue he thinks will move him forward. He is not to be trusted with anything. So Roe v. Wade pretty much becomes moot. If Obama thought it would serve his purposes, he would move to put Bork on the court.
    Obama just has no standing whatsoever to pretend he is a champion of anyone’s rights but his own.

  108. Sorry, forgot an important part:

    “I still say that the only way that abortion can become an issue that involves people not physically of the body around the uterus holding the fetus specifically in question, would be if every man’s penis becomes joint property with THE GOVERNMENT and every human being in his life.”

  109. Regency,

    The dirt digging against ANYONE who speaks against the ONE has already started. I fully epxect the NY Times with a front page expose on how Joe’s not really the father of his children, DNA evidence be damned!

    madamb,
    I had forgotten about the ERA thing. Why has the feminist movement let this thing die? I still have Archie comics from the 80′s where charcters like Veronica Lodge make references to this.

  110. I am a Republican whose personal view on abortion is basically, “If you want one, it’s your karma.”

    I would personally choose life (and did have to make that choice when I was raped years ago and my period started late undoubtely because of the emotional stress). But I would never push that off on anyone else.

    But I MUST make a comment about Roe.

    When McCain says he will nominate “constructionist” justices, he’s talking about ones who will read the Constitution, read what the Founders said when they wrote about whatever issue is under study, and make the decision along the lines of original intent as applied to modern circumstances.

    Constructionist justices would overturn Roe based upon the 10 Amendment. Abortion isn’t mentioned in the Constitution, and therefore is not a Federal matter.

    If then Congress (of whatever party) tried to write a law forbidding abortion, that same constructionist SC would overturn it for the same reason– the 10th Amendment. The Constitution does not mention abortion– NOR DOES IT FORBID IT. Therefore, it is not a Federal matter.

    So what would that do? Answer: Nothing. It would simply return the issue to the individual states.

    And frankly, I can’t imagine a state today that would outright overturn abortion laws, not even Utah with its Mormon majority. I can see that some states might impose restrictions (parental consent for minors, restrictions for situation, etc), but outright overturn, no.

    Under a constructionist SC, the only way to ban abortions at the Federal level would be write a Constitutional amendment stating so. A Constitutional amendment requires ratification by 2/3 of Congress AND ratification by 2/3 of the states’ legislatures.

    Like that’s ever going to fly!

    Remember that a constructionist jurist is NOT a “conservative” jurist. A constructionist is a precise description of someone goes to the source documentation and applies it to the present, which is neither a conservative nor a liberal position. It is a pragmatic position.

    Roe is a very emotional issue, for numerous reasons on both sides. But the fact is that if Roe is overturned by a CONSTRUCTIONIST based on the 10th Amendment, there’s no way anti-abortion law can be legislated at the Federal level. The decision will return to your state– and your voice is 50 times louder in your state capital than it is in Washington.

  111. madameb- do you think part of obama’s annoying ambivalence is to placate his radical black theologian base, who are anti-abortion as well as anti-gay, or does he just not give a d-mn?

    I think he doesn’t give a d*mn AND is trying to placate his base, plus trying to peel off evangelical voters.

  112. In 24 hours, we’ll know more about Joe The Plumber than we do about The Messiah. Most will turn out to be lies, but by then the Obots will have moved onto another smeared victim.

  113. This talk of book clubs reminds me of The Confluence book club? That kind of petered out. Wasn’t masslib/melanie the organizer of that? Maybe we can get that going again next month if people are interested.

  114. Dave, I know many of us differ with you on issues, but speaking for myself, you are such a refreshing voice that has been added to the debate. Coming from “the other side” you are reasonable and thought provoking at the same time. You keep the dialogue flowing and provide interesting insights from your side of the aisle. Thanks.

  115. Where you folks been?! The front page of the NY Times web-site has an article about Joe the plumber. Apparently “Joe” is not his first name and he’s not a licensed plumber. I’m not making this up. Go check out front page of the NY Times web-site!

  116. jules: It was masslib who had organized the online book club. If memory serves, “1984″ was the choice. We never did get around to it.

  117. mamapajamas – Forgive me, but this “strict constructionist” meme is complete and utter BS. There is no such thing as a “strict constructionist.” Unless you are willing to discard ALL the amendments to the Constitution, you are not one. And I don’t think you want to give up your right to vote!

    There is no reason to overturn Roe v. Wade. It is the settled law of the land. You may not like it, but it’s done. And a 5-4 Supreme Court has not overturned it, not even with a Republican President and a Republican Congress.

    You are being used by YOUR party if you think such an overturn will ever happen.

  118. PJ,
    no need to read l984. We’re living it.

  119. Okay, I’ll take the karma points as a credit against the next time the moderator threatens to kick me out! ;-)

    One thing that was generally missed was McCain’s comment, “I am a Federalist.” That means he believes in state’s rights, which were nicely summed up mamapajamas above.

  120. They are going to make Joe the Plumber sorry he ever dared walk up to Obama and question him! The nerve of that Joe -if-that-really-is-his-name!
    No one questions That One!
    I feel like I’m caught in an Onion satire.

  121. angelasmith: Ain’t that the truth? And those feared “rats” are all in congress!

  122. madamab, sal — I’m not trying to pick a fight with sal, and sal, I do appreciate your apology. You said “if [you] sounded condescending” and, imo, you most certainly did. I believe that the “abortion” issue and the emotional connotations that it brings up (no one wants to “kill babies” for crying out loud) is an inflammatory tactic used to obscure the real issue — are women human beings? are women’s rights human rights? If the answer to these questions are yes, then there should be no question as to a woman’s right to choose. It wasn’t that long ago that women had no right to personal autonomy, for example an alarming number of hysterectomies were performed on women against their will as late as in the 1950s. IMO, the abortion issue is a guise used to keep the patriarchal system in place — it is a genius tactic because people get so focused on questions of morality and “when life begins” that they don’t even realize that the root of the question is: do women have the right to personal autonomy? Yes or No — no middle ground imo.

  123. votermom – It is absolutely ludicrous. Poor Joe. Joseph is his middle name. Yes, it’s absolutely unheard of that a person goes by his/her middle name!!

    And the Obots say that questioning Obama over his ties to Ayers, Wright, Rezko and ACORN is a “distraction?”

    (rolls eyes)

  124. DYB,

    OMG! you’re right! I always thought the NY Times was against Middle America, now they’re actually directly attacking someone

    Unbelievable

  125. Joe the Plumber may end up Joe the Ambassador to the Court of St. James after this.

  126. Brad Pitt goes by his middle name.

  127. One of my sons goes by his middle name as he was a junior and named after his father. Good grief! Has this now become a crime against The One? Pretty soon he will have come down from the Mount and will be issuing his own brand of Obama Commandments. “Thou shalt not” will be compulsary reading going forward.

  128. PJ – Anne Frank is an excellent choice. “Because of her cheerfulness and undying courage, Anne Frank was able to keep up the hopes of her family members as well as the Van Daan’s during their time in hiding. Her never ending love for all people was fueled by
    the fact that she would never let anyone’s cruelty and power bring her spirits to the ground. Anne died at Bergen-Belsen Concentration Camp in 1945, yet her voice still lives on through her famous diary. Even the
    Nazi’s, who had killed over five million Jews by the end of World War II, could not diminish the hope for peace of a fourteen-year-old girl named Anne Frank.”

    I read it as a 13 year old, also liked “To Kill a Mockingbird” and Pearl S. Buck’s “Good Earth”. After reading “Diary of Anne Frank”, I read as much as I could regarding this period of time for the Jewish people. It was very painful for me – I don’t think children today read anything like these books – are there any? I know you are talking about an adult group. I don’t mean to highjack the thread.

  129. I go by my middle name; only telemarketers use my first name.

  130. Joe the Plumber owes back taxes. They’re trying to destroy regular America. This sucks elephant ()&(*Y*!

  131. DYB — every “jr” in the south goes by his middle name (sr. goes by the first name).
    What do you expect? Last night on TL they were already starting the “Joe the Plumber is a GOP plant” meme.

  132. It doesn’t matter if Joe the Plumber were a serial killer. The point is the off the cuff remark Obama made about “spreading the wealth”. That will not change no matter what dirt they dig up on the guy.

  133. Have any of you ever read “Number the Stars”? Also about the Holocaust, it’s intended as teen book but it affected me so much as a fifth grader that I’ve sought it out many times since then.

  134. I don’t care if he turns out to be Henrietta the Hairdresser, our plumber raised valid points.

    He just didn’t understand that middle names are taboo in Obamaland.

  135. Pat at 3:54,
    oh god yes!

  136. Well, when you get to a certain stage with your business (before the $200K mark) you will find yourself in a never-ending dialog with the IRS. This is just a fact. It has nothing to do with whether or not you have done anything wrong. 98% of small businesses have “owed back taxes” at one time or another.

  137. Boo Radley: On the contrary. I often ask for reading tips for my book club from members of the Confluence. I love knowing what other people read as it provides me with another inkling of who they are. For instance, madamab did an interview with Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney from NY who had written a book. Because it was recommended by madamab I ordered it. gary has given me some titles along with Boston Boomer and others.

    I read so much and am always looking for something new. But I will admit that I have slacked off a bit since Feb when the primaries consumed more of my interest to be honest. Right now I am looking at a stack that will eventually capture my attention once again.

  138. Obama supporters have a thing against middle names, remember?

    Pat J: Ann Frank made such an impression on me when I first read it in junior high school. It is a wonderful book, and should be read by all, along with Elie Wiesel’s “Night” and Solzhenitsyn’s “A Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich.”

  139. BTW – The Diary of Anne Frank is an amazing book. I’ve always felt that if she could have faith in the basic goodness of humanity after all she suffered, then so can I.
    :-)

  140. Gary, thanks so much for that.
    madamab
    Now I remember what made me so angry last night! It somehow got buried with the rest of the information and I couldn’t quite remember what it was. I know it’s not the first time he says this but somehow I expected he’d stop. Grrrrrrr!

  141. DYB: Ok, we’ll have to forgive Brad Pitt.

  142. jules – LOL!!

    Funny, I remember when they were all using his middle name on all the prog blogs. Now it’s verboten.

  143. votermom,
    I generally love Onion satires. But the one we’re stuck in just gives me the ever-loving creeps. I laugh at what’s going on and then I get the willies. And then I laugh and then I get the willies. I think it might be political flu.

  144. It really is remarkable, though absolutely not surprising in the slightest, that the Obots and their media enablers have started a smear campaign against “Joe The Plumber”.

  145. angienc,

    No worries, I find talking to folks with differing opinions to be extremely interesting. :)

    I think that women, like men, should be allowed all the rights given to them by God and the Constitution. The difference between us right now, I believe, is that you view the choice to have an abortion as a right you are born with, while I believe that it is a Constitutional right. So I can respect and even defend your Constitutional rights, but fundamentally I cannot wholeheartedly say that the choice to have or not have an abortion is something that we should be bestowed with. I would not be able to cross that threshold.

  146. Middle names are a sore subject for Obama. He both loves and hates his, like Gollum loves and hates The Precious.

    I do think it might have been a mistake for McCain to make such a big deal out of Joe without vetting him first. All the stories about him now are a distraction. I’ve noticed that Obama supporters’ behavior since the debate has been muted. (I’m going by my friends’ status updates on Facebook – this morning NOTHING on the subject of the debate.) Now Joe is going to become a pushback topic.

  147. Hi, Pat J,

    I’m a real foodie. I’ve even got a certificate from Cambridge Culinary. I had no intention of ever becoming a chef, but my BFF wanted me to play BINGO with her, and I talked her into going to cooking school together instead. I know it’s really disappointing when your friends don’t want to eat what you prefer to cook, but I’ve learned to ask myself if I want them to eat for me or am I cooking for them? Sometimes I just open their mouths and stuff the butter and cream down their throats, but other times I try to accommodate them. Some low calorie choices that are still elegant and fun would be boiled shrimp, steamed asparagus wrapped in proscuitto, thin sliced toast with fresh tomato breschetta, and vegetables with a dip made from lowfat sour cream and goat cheese. Given the book that you’ve read, how about serving a mango dipping sauce for the shrimp, and making mango margarita’s? (I’m still on my hiatus from commenting on politics except for participating in the sexism watch so forgive me if “Martha” gets on your nerves. I’ll be sending her back into hiding just before the 4th.)

  148. angie, I agree with your analysis on the choice issue.

  149. I am so amazed that Ann Frank wrote those words at the age of 14. She would have been an astonishing voice had she been allowed to live. And yes, I did read “Night” by Elie Weisel. I have his bio sitting here in the clutter. We truly do not understand what true suffering is like. Their voices act as reminders of man’s inhumanity to man and how fragile that peace is.

  150. PJ – if you can’t get them to do Anne Frank, you might try Anne Frank Remembered by Miep Gies. It’s more about Gies’s story and the dangers she faced by hiding the Frank family. I think it resonates a lot now given the political climate. At least to me it does:

  151. DYB: I disagree. Folks will indentify with Joe, and think the attacks are ugly. It will also bring attention to the tax plans and Obama’s tax welfare plan, and he really cannot afford any radical tags like ‘socialist’ because people know so little about him..

  152. Given the book that you’ve read, how about serving a mango dipping sauce for the shrimp, and making mango margarita’s?

    samanthasmom: You have just become my new Rachel Ray! Excellent idea! Triple love it!!!

  153. John Murtha’s seat is in jeopardy. His closest competitor has more than twice the money in his coffers as Murtha and Murtha just canceled their debate.

    Looks to me like John Murtha is choosing to fall on his sword. He’s no fool. He did this intentionally.

  154. jules – Solzhenitsyn’s “One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich” was so powerful and haunting to me. It stayed with me for a long, long time.

  155. PofE – I’m with you on this one. “Vetted?” He’s just a regular guy, not a politician. You can find something bad about anyone if you try hard enough…

  156. JulieS9164: Perfect! And Miep faced so many dangers in keeping them alive. I am on this since I doubt most of them have ever read that book and Ann is very familiar. Thank God for Amazon.

    This one sounds like a winner!

  157. samanthasmom: My mouth is watering!
    —–

    How long will it take before some scumbag posts “Joe the Plumber’s” personal info? I tend to agree with parentofed that people might indentify with Joe, particularly now that he is being targeted simply for asking a question that caused BO to step in it.

  158. PJ – Miep came to Charlotte some years ago and I went to see her. Such a tiny, frail-looking woman… it was amazing to think that such moral courage and inner strength was packed into that small woman.

  159. Since making the NYT and GMA today, Joe the Plumber may just be a big help in bringing down The One. I really doubt that people are going to like the smearing of a citizen for asking a politician a question. I hope for backlash.

  160. BTW,

    I saw this pic at hillaryclintonforum.net

    thought it was quite funny :D

    http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y68/coasterad/firdtandsecond.jpg

  161. Mawm said:

    If Scientists find a way to test for gayness before birth, I wonder if the evangelicals would change their minds about the issue.

    Even though I am gay, I would not. It is still a woman’s choice.

    No, Mawm, the evangelicals would then look for a vaccine.

  162. Shoot! I wandered off for just a minute and the thread is a mile long.

    PJ: You could supply that super-diet beer to go with celery – mmmm…. Oh, but you just have to get some nice chocolate and put it in a dish by you!

  163. I don’t know if it would go over in a book reading group, but Winnie the Pooh and it’s sequel are great.

    Obama is just so “Rabbit.” He’s always talking a lot and acting important and annoying the others.

    And we could all use some “Roo.”

    Really, if you read the scenes between Wol and Rabbit, you will laugh your ass off.

  164. JulieS9164: See why I love this blog? So much sharing of ideas. And because my group knows how much I read they kind of look to me to make a selection although we do vote on it. But I will guarantee that the Bill O’Reilly selection is dead before it even hits the floor. What was she thinking?

    On to Amazon. I want to order this now. I can download the synopsis and make copies for them. Most are inclined to go along with my suggestions.

  165. Julie@9164: I am going to write down the title you suggested.

  166. Kim: lololol

  167. Again, Obama assumes to responsibility for his own answers. It is Joe’s fault for asking the question.

    Please Lord in Heaven, do not let these thugs take over the country. Please do not put us in Obamalonian captivity because we have been wicked.

  168. Mawm: You may need to pay for your sins but mine are expunged. I am as pure as the given snow!

  169. Sal: That sign is cool!!

  170. Pat J: Given what you’ve been doing to Lou and Eddy behind closed doors, I disagree.

    However, I am quite the pure thing. Carry me on your shoulders, please. My pure feet shant touch the ground.

  171. Anne Frank is incredible – and still widely read by young people today.

    For another view on camps this side of the pond I highly reccommend “Farewell to Manzanar” as well.

    Night makes me cry every time, especially the part where he describes seeing the gas chambers for the first time.

    All of these books I had to read in school, so they are still teaching these things.

  172. Pat at 4:21PM,

    Did you manage to touch the One’s jacket or perhaps shopped at the same Whole Foods as he did?

  173. Pat, you are reading Bold Fresh? Gary and I were laughing about the cover because I said he looked bored in church, but Gary said he looked like he had just come from a beating by the nuns. One day we were watching O’Reilly and he said that the look on his face was from the nuns beating him. Once again Gary is right.

  174. Solzhenitsyn’s “One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich”, I had a student give me that book (I’m a librarian at a small college) and I couldn’t get through it. It was SOOOOO depressing. It’s a tiny book. I read all the time, but just couldn’t finish that one. I love biographies and autobiographies. I have tons of books on Hollywood and Broadway, actors, directors, history of studios, stuff like that.

    Pat, if you ever want recommendations on stuff like that I’m your girl.

    Marsha

  175. Mawm: I would never buy that book or any other penned by that idiot. I am still smarting that I own two by KO and one by Jack Cafferty. In my opinion, O’Reilly was never smacked hard enough by the nuns or his parents and as a result we are left with this insufferable twit night after night.

  176. Regency: (()_*&&^ #####()*#@!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  177. Folks, did you see this?

    It has begun.

    McCain’s Robocall on Ayers

  178. Lately I have been reading David Sedaris books. One of my students went to see him in person this weekend. He is too funny.

  179. griffithinc: I am not ashamed to admit I love gossip too.

  180. Wait, I thought we were supposed to read the Penelopiad or something like that. You mean I read the wrong damn book?

  181. madamab, thank you for your comment.

    However, I am neither for nor against Roe. I’m certainly not anti-abortion– I’ve made it clear that this is your own business.

    But I would like to point out that it is precisely BECAUSE abortion rights are settled law in the states that Roe is no longer necessary. It WAS needed for a while, but the states have already taken over.

    Overturning Roe is NOT going to cause a national holocaust BECAUSE the state laws on the matter are in.

    Local laws are legally and socially and categorically different from Federal law. Some local laws look utterly ridiculous until you look into the source.

    For instance, it is against the law to race alligators in Key West, Florida. This has nothing to do with environmental or animal protection concerns– it dates back to the turn of the 19th-20th Centuries. It was made illegal because some yahoos tried it and a bunch of people got hurt. Gators on land are as fast as any lizard, and not bright enough to be afraid of humans. With the exception of criminal laws that are almost universal, local laws are pretty much situational.

    However, Federal law must conform to the Constitution. At that level, looking at what the source documents say and applying them to the case before him/her is PRECISELY what a judge is SUPPOSED to be doing.

  182. Gossip,I hate Harvey Levin, but I go to TMZ every day and I know Pat checks out old Perez.

  183. Re: Joe the plumber. On Gretawire, there is an article “explain to me” because the AP reported the Joe did not have a plumbing licence!!!

    Also in the comments, some loser research & posted Joe’s tax information including his address. Apparently Joe has an outstanding amount ($1,000+) owed to Department of Revenue

    So, I truly expect that NYTimes article surfacing tomorrow.

  184. Oh hell that just means he owes them, he could have an installment plan or something. Jeez. I have owed the ratbastards before.

  185. I just love the whole workings of Hollywood, I did my first graduate paper in library school on the transition of silent films to sound. I loved doing the research.

    We have a Cinema series here at the college, and next week I’m sponsoring “Mildred Pierce” w/Joan Crawford, it’s my favorite.

    Last semester I sponsored “Ninotchka” w/Greta Garbo. I do a little power point before hand on the background of the actors and the studios, the movie’s context in history. That sort of thing. It’s great fun.

    Marsha

  186. mamapajamas – What I am saying is that Roe will never be overturned.

    I know that the Republicans say it will, and give the “strict constructionist” argument to support it. But it is not going to happen.

    If we women stop believing our respective Parties on this issue, we will be a lot better off, and will be able to come together in a much more positive way.

  187. Marsha: I would love to monitor that class. Sounds interesting.

  188. madamab
    I figured it out: Obama was salvaging his invitation to Al Smith dinner
    http://www.politico.com/blogs/michaelcalderone/1008/Obama_McCain_on_stage_tonight_in_NYC.html

    However, Bush and Kerry weren’t invited in 2004 because the Archdiocese stated there were divisive election issues that would take away from the charity dinner. (It was assumed by some that Kerry’s abortion stance might have been the issue, but the Archdiocese never specified.)

  189. What has begun?

  190. I also do a music class based on NPR’s best 100 American musical composition of the 20th Century. It covers every genre, and is a lot of fun too.

    Marsha

  191. Sophia,

    In case someone brings up that stupid license thing, just tell tham that Joe does not need a plumbing license as he works for a contracting company. He does not need a license to do that kind of work.

    BTW, Obama has personally attacked Joe. So lets’ see, he gives Hillary the finger, calls Palin a pig, and now belittles a citizen trying to buy a business. AWESOME!!! Meltdown mode.

    http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/10/obama-on-joe-th.html

  192. Everyone has owed taxes, what is the big deal? The Obots are going to crucify that poor guy.

  193. Myshiba – The link is self-explanatory. Just click on it.
    :-)

  194. Joe the Plumber looks like the kind of guy who can take care of himself. In fact, he is kind of cute.

  195. Sophia,

    In case someone brings up that stupid license thing, just tell tham that Joe does not need a plumbing license as he works for a contracting company. He does not need a license to do that kind of work.

    BTW, Obama has personally attacked Joe. So lets’ see, he gives Hillary the finger, calls Palin a pig, and now belittles a citizen trying to buy a business. AWESOME!!! Meltdown mode.

    I can’t post the article but its from ABC NEws Political Punch

    Obama on Joe

    “And then he’s trying to suggest that a plumber is the guy he’s fighting for,” Obama said, in a reference to Joe Wurzelbacher. “How many plumbers you know makin’ a quarter million dollars a year? I have a different set of priorities, I’ll give a middle-class tax cut to 95% of all workers.”

  196. Marsha – Your interests and mine are VERY closely aligned! I love movies and classical music too.

    We PUMAs are an amazing group. If it weren’t for all the r*cism…

    I keed! I keed!

  197. ughh… in moderation…. sorry I used the R word

  198. Pat , does Eddie read this? Carol will tell him.

  199. How long before Joe the Plumber is labeled a r@cist?

  200. Sophia,
    You don’t have to wait till tomorrow. They have their hit piece ready for your consumption today.

    http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/16/joe-in-the-spotlight/

  201. Sal – Obama is lying AGAIN!!!!

    That plumber is NOT making $250,000 a year.

    Jesus Christ. Can Obama EVER tell the truth?

  202. Marsha my children hate me because all the movies I tivo are oldies, tonight I rewatch Gilda.

  203. madamab, re: “If we women stop believing our respective Parties on this issue, we will be a lot better off, and will be able to come together in a much more positive way.”

    I agree. But when is the Democratic Party going to stop using Roe as a boogyman to beat Republicans with?

  204. Joe the Plumber, just a hard working stiff, has now found that his moment of fame, that he did not seek, will bury him as he had the temerity to disagree with The One. Joe does not earn $250,000 yearly, his company does. What tools!!

  205. Oh holy hell the guy said the business would make 250k. I am sure he employs people.

  206. BPD,

    he’s already being labeled a racist for making a reference to Obama tap dancing and syaing that he tap dances as well as Sammy Davis, nevermind the fac that the two most prominent tap dancers, Sammy and Savion Glover, that everyone knows are black. I mean, how many white tap dancers are there?!??!

  207. Pat-Great minds thinking alike

  208. Kim: You and I share the same tastes. No matter how many times I have watched “A Tree Grows in Brooklyn” I never tire of it.

  209. Well, I just got my first obot email about poor ol’ Joe the Plumber. Do these folks really think attacking a citizen is a good idea? All this average Joe did was ask Obama a question and the obots go off on another one of their smear sprees. Is this how citizens can expect to be treated if Obama becomes President? Yikes!

  210. Poor Joe is getting slammed in the remarks at the NYT. Cause he said Obama tap danced like Sammy Davis Jr., guess what they’re calling Joe? Yeah, we know……….under the bus for Joe.

  211. mamapajamas – The Democrats will do it until we stop them. That’s one of the reasons for PUMA!!!

    So, Republican and Democratic women have a responsibility to not let these issues divide us, IMHO. We realized this year that our Party was lying to us. If you and your sisters realize the same thing, then we will have a lot more independence and freedom to make decisions based on facts, not emotions.

  212. Even if it means Roe being overturned, America’s future is too important to have a guy like obama in the white house . . . this is NOT a difficult decision for those of us who can see the warning signs very clearly (i.e., obama’s friends, mentors, associates, and supporters around the world).

    I am shocked and disgusted that there are actually so many people who would be willing to turn this country’s government over to people like obama and his ilk (thanks to the corrupt and inept DNC, Pelosi, Reid, etc.).

    Hillary Clinton too has drunk the Kool-aid . . .she will never get my vote because of this (she has taken it too far for her to redeem herself to me).

    McCain/Palin
    America must be saved.

  213. yeah Obama is a bold faced liar, Joe never said he would be making $250K, he stated that the company wold be takling in $250K! Frigging moron!!

  214. My favorite oldie has to be Marnie. Tippi Hedren and Sean Connery or Breakfast at Tiffany’s but you already knew that from when you were sick.

  215. [...] 16, 2008 · No Comments Many women wo really listened to the debate last night were very angry about Obama’s answer on the abortion. It was parvizing as it was fearmongering and non-committal. My pet peeve was this part women in [...]

  216. Time to march out Roland Martin, John Lewis, Jim Clyburn, Al Sharpton, and Jesse Sr. for another evening of ra*ce baiting leveled against Joe the Plumber. He should have used Fred Astaire instead of Sammy. Now they can pounce with impunity! From now on: Joe the Redneck Plumber.

  217. I have a HUGE video/dvd collection, ALL are classic films. So my books are all to research the movies. I LOVE TCM. I get out my movie reference book and find out all the interesting things about every movie that comes on. My partner just laughs at me. But I’m a librarian, what else can I do?

  218. The comments about Joe on the NYT article are disgusting. I hope this treatment really backfires on Precious.

    You better not earn more than $250,000/year under Obama or you will become part of the evil rich.

    Earn $249,999,999.99 and you get to remain in his Precious’ good graces. Earning more than that makes you a bad person.

  219. griffithinc, on October 16th, 2008 at 4:45 pm Said:
    Poor Joe is getting slammed in the remarks at the NYT. Cause he said Obama tap danced like Sammy Davis Jr., guess what they’re calling Joe? Yeah, we know……….under the bus for Joe.

    Poor Joe. He should have said Obama tap danced like Fayard Nicholas. That would have thrown them for a loop.

  220. Marsha; Oh to indulge myself in a 24 hour marathon of the best movies ever. Kim and I will join you!

  221. The Nicholas Brothers, two of the best dancers ever, will more than likely be forgotten. But that reference would have gone over the heads of most Obots. Their cultural reference starts about the time of the Brady Bunch.

  222. Mawm – That’s the thing, it’s so freaking arbitrary – and the guy himself doesn’t even earn that much money, so the whole thing is a straw man.

    This is what Axelrove is coming up with to counter the Ayers story. It’s truly pathetic that no one is safe from the freakish swarming of the Obamabots.

  223. The Obamabots are like a swarm out of a Stephen King novel. Not real but menacing just the same.

  224. No, PJ, he should be able to say Sammy Davis Jr. if he wants. he was simply referring to tap-dancing and I am sure that he knows very little about tap dancing. I am tired of watching every damn word I say. I am not a r@cist, never have been. This is becoming redundant, you say anything and teh obots are all “oooohhs and ohhhhhnnooos”. I hope this backfires, because Joe is normal, he is as RD puts it Jo’bag of donuts. People are tiring of the r@cist slurs and maybe this will bite their asses.

  225. True Pat. But just think of the look on their faces after they’d googled his name. :D

  226. They can be pretty menacing Pat. A guy came into my second job with a NoBama shirt and some of the Obots said something about nailing him outside.

  227. gxm17

    Fayard Nicholas, that is too funny.

  228. I agree with Kim and PJ. For f*ck’s sake. They are both black. So f*cking what????

  229. Kim,

    Couldn’t have said it better myself. I AM SICK AND TIRED OF HEARING THAT I’M a RACIST.

    Axelrod tried this crap with Fernando Ferrer’s mayoral run, but he got buried by Bloomberg. Apparently, even in NYC, being told to vote for Ferrer because he’s Hispanic doesn’t quite work.

  230. A 24 hour marathon, wonderful and I would want those chips and dip and cookies that your book club doesn’t want.

  231. There is nothing r@cist about the Sammy Davis comment. The people who say it is are the ones who have a problem.

  232. err is r**ist a censored word or something?

  233. Gregory Hines, Sammy Davis Jr., the Nicholas Brothers, Savion Glover, Bill Robinson……….I can’t even name a white tap dancer, well one these dopes would recognize. Gene Kelly and Fred Astaire weren’t primarily tap dancers. Idiots. How about if he compared Obama to Shirley Temple. HAHAHAHAHA. What would they have done w/that?

  234. griffithinc, your avatar always make me smile. I know I’ve mentioned it before but I had to tell you again.

  235. Oh God Madama, it’s official, after our statements, we have joined the ranks of the fukemall nationality.

  236. LOLOLOL Kim!

    NEW POST UP!!!

  237. err is r**ist a censored word or something?
    Comments with that word go into moderation automatically.

  238. There are key words that throw you into moderation, r@cist is one of them

  239. I’ve wanted to have a classic film festival at my house, but I’m the only one I could get to come. Yes Kim, we HAVE to the chips and dip. And cheese. And popcorn. And wine of course.

  240. Sal, yep. It’s because the obots use it so very often so r@cism is a tagged word to keep the kool-aid drinkers in line.

  241. I love my avatar too. Hillary the Lovely.

  242. bah I didn’t know that! Damn you Obots for doing this to people. We have to censor ourselves because of you jerks.

  243. –ok I edited the word ;)

    griffithinc,

    gah I hate people. How many white tap dancers can they think of????? If I made a basketball refernce to Obama and Michael Jordan, that owuld make me r@cist too I guess.

    @#@*#^@&*#^@!!!! ARGHHHHHH

    ok sorry I had to get that out of my system. I am TIRED of being called a r@cist because I disagree with him. I wish to heck that he was white so I could basically take a crap and dump on his head and Chris Matthews would still geta tingle up his leg about it!!

    @#&*@^#@*%*@#^@&#!!!

  244. mamapajamas said:

    And frankly, I can’t imagine a state today that would outright overturn abortion laws, not even Utah with its Mormon majority.

    South Dakota made it illegal and I believe it was challenged in court using Roe v. Wade as the argument that overturned the ban.

    Mountain Sage

  245. Election 2008 = Shawn of the Dead

  246. and cheesecake, we have to have cheesecake.

  247. It’s ok Sal, you’ll get used to it. Anything you say negative about Obama makes you a r@cist. You can’t just not like him. He is the one, the Precious, the Obama. Bleack.

  248. Ohhhh cheesecake, but I like chocolate too, chocolate cheesecake!!!!

  249. I have a cheesecake recipe with sliced apples (like apple pie filling) and pecans on top. It is very good this time of the year.

  250. If Obambi were white, he wouldn’t be where he is now. Oops. My bad. Under the bus again for me.

    Geraldine Ferraro was exactly right. Who the hell is this guy and what has he done? NOTHING!!. NADA!!! ZERO!!! But he has his big precious DNC machine behind him. I hope he loses big time.

  251. OT:

    W00t, Leanne won Project Runway!

  252. griffithinc: Shirley Temple!! Too funny.

    This is sickening. These people are out of their freaking minds. Please, please, please, may this totally backfire in their faces.

  253. MadamB: I’m sorry I’m late to your post – but THANK YOU.

    This is exactly how I feel about McCain’s answer. For a EXTREMELY pro-choice woman as myself, McCain gave me the security that Roe v Wade will not be an issue for him.

    However Obama threatened us AGAIN. F__K him and his cult-o-Bama. Obama made us chattel again with his response.

    Message to DNC/Obamacrats: Women’s right to choose is between her and her doctor. That’s it – no more. Don’t give this CRAP about pasters and males intervening!!

  254. Yeah, the only white tap dancer I could come up with was Shirley Temple, too. Guess I’m not educated and elitist enough.

    Pat and jules, enjoy the book. It’s really an engrossing read.

  255. Regency, ug!

    I knew someone was going to spoil it.

    I won’t be able to watch until tomorrow night.

  256. Clean up in the Post Debate thread needed.

  257. sm77, I’m with ya. Anyone who actually believes that Obama gives a rat’s a$$ about women’s rights, or the right to chose, is delusion. I mean the man can’t even bring himself to denounce the “c*nt” t-shirts. As I’ve said before: His silence is deafening. I can’t begin to imagine what a terrible President he would become.

  258. cbn at 3:27

    Yet, if women did not allow themselves to be divided, but sat down together and hashed it out, men would no longer be able to do that.

  259. I don’t think it makes any sense to blame Obama on a Libertarian infiltration of the Dems. Granted, it’s been 30 years since I’ve had any friends that are Libertarians, but for a while I hung out with Tony Nathan & her family. Tony Nathan was the first female VP candidate (1972). Libertarians believe in smaller government and more personal liberties — a potent argument in the 70s, when government was busy legislating what people were allowed to do in their own bedrooms (straight people, gay used to be illegal most places!). Personally, I thought Libertarians were kind of naive about what would happen without anti-pollution laws, so I stuck with the Dems, but that’s another story. The point is that Obama wants BIG BIG BIG government and higher taxes and a redistribution of wealth, and there is no way those ideas came from Libertarians… sounds more like the Socialist or the Communist party. (Not that there’s anything wrong with that… unless of course you want to get a security clearance.)

  260. Look the Democrats are not going to do anything to strengthen reproductive rights of women because then they loose the big club they have been bludgeoning women with for years and they don’t have anything to replace it with. I happen to believe that abortion rights are a states issue and have helped make sure Washington has strong laws to protect women’s choice. The Dems should have been having state specific initiatives to strengthen as many state laws as possible. For that matter education is supposed to be up to the state too. So there is no reason for McCain and BO to be discussing it either.

  261. votermom, if it’s not too late…an instant bruise on a toe almost always indicates a chipped bone or a fracture. Put a whisp of cotton between it and the next toe and tape them loosly, but firmly together. Leave it like that for a week or so changing the cotton and tape it every day .

  262. I am sick of having abortion hanging over us like a blade on a pendulum. Male politicians use this to batter women, either to make them feel guilty or to make them worry they won’t be protected. It’s either patriarchal or paternalistic and they can stick it.

  263. Our son got married 6 years ago – the day of the wedding he and his soon-to-be wife were standing in front of her pastor – before he started the ceremony he said – “you are about to make promises to each other, I want you to both turn around and see the witnesses here today for these promises” – they both turned around and my son did a “yikes” kind of look at the more than 200 people in the church. Her pastor then asked them if they still wanted to go through with it. I’m glad they both agreed because today we have two of the most adorable grandchildren.
    Perhaps if more couples took the time to think about their intentions we’d have less angst out there.
    Hey, Julie – what about Fred Astaire and Gene Kelly and Donald O’Conner and Buddy Ebsen?

  264. Sal, on October 16th, 2008 at 4:07 pm Said:

    I think that women, like men, should be allowed all the rights given to them by God and the Constitution. The difference between us right now, I believe, is that you [angien] view the choice to have an abortion as a right you are born with, while I believe that it is a Constitutional right.

    NO. (speaking for Sandra) Every PERSON has the right of PERSONAL AUTONOMY. Neither you nore anyone else has the right to tell me I have to bend my knee, bow my head, or bear/not bear a child.

  265. All this talk about abortion is really sad. So much talk about ‘MY rights”. I’ve heard nobody mention the rights of the unborn child. And make no mistake, it IS a child and it is KILLED.

    Who speaks for those who cannot speak for themselves?

    The Constitution and BOR’s speaks of rights not from man or government from from our CREATOR. Do you think the CREATOR would approve of abortion? Do you think that’s a “God Given Right”???

  266. Steve, the issue for many of us is not whether an unborn child is living or not. It is whether the government should be making very personal and medical choices for women regarding their reproductive autonomy. It *is* sad, and it is a very difficult decision for some women.

    The health and safety of the mother is paramount, and I don’t think the government should second-guess such an issue for her with ‘one size fits all’ rules or restrictions.

  267. [...] rather full answers to the complex question of abortion, PUMA apologists are out in full force, defending against the claim that John McCain will overrule Roe v. Wade. They argue that because (1) the Court [...]

  268. [...] You Have Got To Read This! Jump to Comments I was just getting ready to shut down when I tripped across this posting. You really should read it! Obama assumes that before making a decision about our own bodies and our [...]

  269. Steve
    Your ‘imaginary friend’ is not someone who can independently “approve of abortion” or otherwise. Your imaginary friend didn’t create anything. You created your imaginary friend.
    So, the rights of an unborn fetus versus those of its already born mother are what I think you are trying to discuss. And, I think you have concluded that the mother’s rights are not as important as those of the unborn fetus. How did you arrive at that conclusion.

  270. Thanks for stepping forward and writing this post on behalf of all women. As you know, we certainly can’t speak for ourselves. *eyeroll*

  271. I am a conservative woman, labeled by some as liberatarian. I personally believe abortion is wrong and with the continued development of 3D imagery in ultrasound am further convinced. I have and will continue to speak against it, and in favor of adoption.

    However,

    I am not an underaged child. The government is not my daddy, nor my owner. It is none of the government’s business what decision I make. Should I be in the position of having to decide to submit to an abortion, I can do that myself, thank you. Just as I can decide who to sleep with or marry.

    I enjoyed reading this post. Thank you.

  272. Not only am I going to pull that lever by myself as I have always done..But I am going to do something that I HAVE NEVER DONE BEFORE!!..I am voting a straight Republican Ticket~! My Congress people here in Texas are just as clueless as Nobama and need to learn their lesson and clean up our Party!

  273. Interesting thoughts. But I have two things to offer you to consider.

    “Hangs in the balance” could be a poorly worded phrase meaning it would be a part of the decision. Not necessarily a threat, and not a litmus test.

    Obama is, as McCain is, as any other politician in their position is, using carefully worded phrases written for him. They don’t go unprepared into these debates, and that was a predictable topic (even coming from my north-of-the-border perspecitve). My bet is that the consultation part was put in there not because /he/ doesn’t think we can make this decision on our own, but because he needs to appease the large body of potential voters – those voters who are with him just barely. It’s all a game about how to attract, and keep, as many voters as possible. I’d be willing to bet that careful analysis was done: how many will we lose by this phrase? How many would we lose if it’s phrased simply that women are the best people to make that decision on their own?

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