)One of the most die-hard of these right-wing frames is that liberals “hate America.” Why in the world would conservatives think that, we liberals wonder? We love America. We love America so much that we want her to have the best government possible. Can’t these idiotic conservative buttheads understand the difference between hating America and hating America’s government and policies?
Well, maybe they can’t. And maybe…it’s partially our fault, because we do things like this.
You see, we liberals don’t choose our symbols wisely. If we are upset with the government, we should not burn a flag. The flag is not Democratic, Republican or Rosicrucian. It is simply a symbol of America itself. Why would we burn a symbol of America…if we don’t hate America?
Now, who is the idiot – the one that draws simple conclusions from symbolic acts, or the one that doesn’t understand what conclusions will be drawn from these very same acts?
No one understands the power of framing and symbols better than Hillary Clinton, who was re-elected in 2006 with 67% of the popular vote. Senator Clinton took a lot of flak from self-professed “progressives” because she co-sponsored a bill to make it illegal, in certain circumstances, to burn the flag.
Take a look, for example, at this rambling, factually-challenged screed from Markos Moulitsas in 2006. It condemns Hillary for her flag-burning bill, among other things. It’s quite the rant. (Apparently Kos has been an unoriginal, power-hungry Hillary Hater for a lot longer than I thought. Who knew?)
In any case, Clinton got it from all sides. She was pandering to conservatives. She was wasting her time on stupid legislation. Etc. etc. etc.
Well, you know what? It worked. Because symbols are IMPORTANT. Why don’t we get that?
We don’t get that because we don’t listen. We arrogantly assume that people who think liberals hate America are stupid, and unworthy of our time and attention. Yes, we do this even to registered Democrats! Hillary listened and she understood. Burning the flag is like burning the Constitution. You can make your point, but make it another way.
And here’s another thing Democrats are dumb about: We don’t respect our own voters. You will never, NEVER see Republicans publicly sneering at other Republicans and double-dog-daring them to vote for Democrats. In fact, McCain is now openly courting the PUMAs – pointing out how rude Obama’s supporters are, meeting with 75 PUMA members privately and reassuring them that he is not the scary neo-con freak he appears to be. And let me emphasize that most PUMAs are – or used to be – registered Democrats.
So why, why, WHY hasn’t Barack Obama done the same thing? Why doesn’t he acknowledge the very real concerns that we PUMAs have about him? Why doesn’t he reassure us that he is not the petty, arrogant, immature, religio-con thug that he appears to be?
I’ll tell you why. Because Obama, like a lot of Party Leaders, blames the voters when they don’t vote for him. The BitterCling remarks and the boring and oft-repeated cries of racism are just two examples of this phenomenon. Republicans never, never blame their voters for not voting for them. They do everything they can to get every possible vote – including counting votes that aren’t even there, a la Ohio in 2004! (I’m not advocating for THAT, of course.)
If we Democrats don’t get a clue, very soon, as to why Democrats vote, we will be on our way to Party extinction along with the Republics.
Maybe that’s a good thing. Should Hillary not become the nominee, I hope that after the 2009 election of John McCain, she and Bill Clinton use their personal and political clout to push a third party into national prominence. My pick would be the liberal Working Families Party, which is based in New York (perfect for a New York Senator). Then, she could run again in 2012 without all the interference, hamstringing and backstabbing from the Democrats.
I’ll bet she’d win in a landslide. Because Hillary understands…why Democrats vote.
cross-posted at Oooh, nuance!
Filed under: General
I certainly don’t vote because somebody guilt tripped me into it. My mom can’t even do that sort of thing to me anymore
Great post, and welcome aboard!
Agree with your pick. I left the Democrats on May 31 and joined the Working Families Party myself.
Is the Working Families group only in New York? We need something like that in Kansas.
My partner feels very much this way, that anyone who cannot show unabashed love for the United States through its symbols ought not to be president. It’s not that anyone who just throws around symbols can president, but that if you are going to be president, you should be able to embrace them. It took me a while to come around to that position. This post is right on. Being president of the United States requires demonstrable love for the United States and its symbols. I don’t care if people burn the flag, but I also would not choose that person for president of the U.S.
I am glad The Confluence posted this!
I think Hillary would have cleaned up, but McCain will win this one. Even in CT, where I live, the Borders bookstore is stocking bios of McCain; the Audacity of Hype–oops–Hope is barely there. I bet the state goes red.
Wow! The contributing writers on this blog are awesome!
I never tire of reading their essays and look forward to such refreshing and thought provoking articles daily.
Welcome, madamab! You have joined the Hall of Famers of blogging political smarties!
katiebird – the Working Families Party is only in NY right now, but it has a lot of potential, I think. Especially if prominent Democrats like the Clintons push it nationally.
Madamab,
Nicely done. You’ve hit the nail squarely on the solar plexus — the very thing that makes Sen. Clinton so electable makes her an anathema to Coward Dean and his orange clad ilk.
The folks who so demeaned Sen. Clinton saw not the nuance and fine Italian hand in her crafting, but fed themselves from the trough of sound bites. I grow so tired of those who draw imaginary lines in the sand just to see them washed away by tides 0f more judicious and intelligent compromise.
Few things in life are tied up neatly in bows and served on silver platters. To those who believe such is the case either have not experienced life sufficiently or have need of an issue to keep them relevant — either way it is an existence without purpose.
Little difficult to wear a flag pin or place your hand over your heart at the playing of the National Anthem when your church espouses “god damn America”. Rather be traitor to your country then your radical church.
oh…and thanks VERY much, everyone, for the welcome! Hugs all around!
I could not be more thrilled to be among such amazing company!
Hurrah madamab. I ‘ve been a fan of yours since our Eschaton days.
wow! Thank you for linking to New York Working Families! Not an accident at all that this powerful incipient 3rd party is from Hillary’s state.
While burning the flag send the wrong message, display upside down is a sign of extreme distress. Just saw the new Quinnipiac polls: Obama sl. ahead in FL and OH, something like 12 points ahead in PA>
Prolix – Was that prose, or poetry?
May I just say, WOW. Very, very beautifully written.
Prolix is a superb poster. And his wit is unmatchable!
(blush) sorry, Madamab, as my screen name connotes, my verbosity gene runs amok this afternoon, but thank you very kindly.
I agree…even though I don’t think it should be illegal to burn flags, and we certainly don’t need a constitutional ammendment against it, I think that if you are a politician, you should defend the symbols of the nation you want to represent.
My friend Pat is the genesis of any humor — there are indentations on my carpet from her causing me to have wild convulsions while rolling around on the floor.
I’ve noticed several references to polls either good or bad for Obama.
Speaking for me only, this stuff is irrelevant. Come hell or high water, I’m not voting for Obama on principles. If others feel the same way, great, that makes me feel a lot less lonely. If I’m the only person in the US that feels this way, I still won’t vote for him. This is way bigger than Obama or a [corrupt] political party.
When does McCain pick his VP? Press is going to carry Obama this whole election, including polls.
There needs to be break in narrative.
parentofed – those polls mean absolutely jack, and frankly, I think they are psy-ops from the media.
The Republicans will attack in force once Obama becomes the actual nominee in August. Until then, they are holding their fire.
Trust me, Obama is toast. He just doesn’t know it yet, and neither do his clueless supporters. They think he’s going to win in a landslide. LOL!
I will never, NEVER vote Obama. He is a New Plutocrat, not an FDR Democrat.
PUMA!
Oh and by the way – the media will carry Obama ONLY UNTIL he becomes the official nominee.
After that, they will reverse themselves so hard they’ll get whiplash.
I am a first-time poster here, but have been a lurker for a few weeks.
Anyone who has a daughter, mother, sister, or wife, whom they love and care about, should be completely appalled by what has gone on the last several months. There are blogs that have links to MO’s appearance on The View today, and the attempts to “make her over”. This turns my stomach. Do people honestly think we’re going to forget the horrific sexism and misogyny that has been thrown about, and which the Obamas and the DNC sat idly by, condoning through their silence? I am so upset right now, I can hardly type. No attempts to “make her over” will win me over, or undo the comment, when asked if MO would vote for HRC, were she the nominee, “I’d have to think about it.”. I can’t even stand the way the Obamas refer to the “18 million cracks” comment – like they are using it for their gain or to pander. Yuck!!!!
Respect for the flag is just a common decency thing, like bowing your head and being quiet at a ceremony when others are praying, even if you aren’t relgious.
Yes, we have a legal right to burn one, but that doesn’t make it right to burn one.
“We don’t get that because we don’t listen”. Well, said madamab.
That’s what Hillary has been yelling about – the middle class. We have to listen to the concerns of the woman in Peoria, the construction worker, the guy in the middle. As much as I don’t care for Fox, Laura (is it Ingram?) explained it one day – the left is uppity and elite and looks down it’s nose at the guy on the bottom even as they are trying to help that very same guy. Hillary related to that guy, so did Dubya. Obama – not so much.
An interesting note from Politico on symbols — two Muslim women with chadars were prohibited from sitting behind BZero in Michigan and thus being in the pictures.
The press release apologized and yet again, blamed it on volunteers who were not acting on orders from the campaign.
A pretty good symbol for how deeply the One feels about an America for all.
Outragedinmd: The making over of MO is in itself sexist. How many men require these makeovers?
Great post, madamab. Thank you for mentioning the Working Families Party. I subscribe to their e-mails and have voted for their candidates. I just hope they haven’t endorsed Obama!
I’ve been rethinking my own relationship to the Democratic Party this primary season, as I’m sure we all have. I used to consider myself far-left and extremely progressive, but seeing the behavior of the so-called progressive wing of the party in action has been a sobering experience. Now I’m seeing it from the outside in.
Hey, I just read on NoQuarter that Robert Danzig (an Obama supporter and possible future security adviser) said that “Winnie the Pooh seems to me to be a fundamental text on national security.” Ya think that’ll help with those right-wing frames?
I’m not talking about Obama’s policies – which as far as I can tell are less progressive than Hillary’s – but rather about
oh, forgot to add, nice posting there, madamab. As for blaming the voters, we were treated like dirt in kY. Hell, al-Jazeera America camped out in KY and freely spoke of our “racism.” Funny, no one asked al-Jazeera how many Muslims would vote against Hillary because she’s a woman.
My family has gone to the same Primitive Baptist-like church for a hundred years or so. Women cannot ever speak in that church, until recently women could not sing hymns, and still can’t line-out hymns. Members sit up front, women on one side, men on the other. I’ve seen women escorted from church for attempting to speak during a business meeting. From the pulpit [lay preachers], scriptures are often quoted against a woman having any authority over a man.
Not many churches are that strict, but most share the “authority” issue & men being head of households. This is what Hillary was up against, but she won and no one in the media gave her any credit for overcoming that bias. BTW, there are black people in small numbers who are members of this church, and black men can preach and are equal to white men.
Hope this isn’t OT.
Oops – meant to delete those last two lines. I need a preview and edit feature!
Outragedinmd: This is so typical of the Obama way of thinking. Appearance is all.
Too bad Michelle’s personality comes through loud and clear. She has a chip on her shoulder the size of Idaho. No Jackie O hairstyle or wardrobe is going to change that.
Prolix—once again the campaign takes no responisibility. volunteers meet underside of bus!
Stilllife –
Holy mother of Jeebus.
No, um, not so much. [throws self off cliff]
Teresa – Great point. And don’t you just love the way she is submitting herself to it?
madamab – I agree. Nothing can ever modify the behavior and attitude exhibited over the last several months.
Gary, that bus is going to have to be tricked out and have 4-wheel drive to get anywhere given those of us under it.
Oh Lawd, I heard Obama told her to “be good” on the View. It’s shocking to me that anyone thinks this guy is a feminist.
Parentofed! Hey girl! First time seeing you here! Confluence is the only thing that keeps me going here in east TN. Great article and posts. Thanks for being here!
Welcome outragedinmd. Glad you spoke up and introduced yourself. You’ll really like it here.
I just made Confluence my homepage.
Is anyone else revolted by the picture of the doomed pigs on CNN? CNN used to be my homepage.
No one has done more for cartoon characters than Barack Obama.
Okay, everyone, must go run some errands. Thanks so much for all the kind words.
Sweetie Sue!,
Thanks. I was just telling someone how it is difficult to speak out – I am near a lot of BO supporters, and I really worry sometimes about my family getting ostracized (I have small children).
Thanks for making me feel welcome.
I won’t watch “The View” anymore. I don’t watch anything anymore. I have unsubscribed from so many dem email lists, that I rarely ever have mail. I dont watch any mainstream news. I don’t read Vanity Fair, The Nation, or the Progressive anymore.
Feeling lonely, if it weren’t for you guys, I would be all alone amongst the bots and conservs.
madamab, I completely agree with you.
I think it comes down to EGO. I think burning a flag is really egotistical. The people doing it WANT people to be shocked, and I think it makes them feel like they are so cool to break such a taboo. It also seems to me that whoever does it doesn’t really care about converting the outsider to their point of view. I think they just want to piss people off. To me, just pissing people off really isn’t a good political strategy(as we are currently experiencing from Obama camp). The American flag burning is only really useful in a country like Iran, where some of the people can be ginned up into action by doing it.
Another mistake Democrats make in the use of symbols is to put too much focus on them. For example, I refer to the very long and costly battle to remove the Confederate flag from SC government buildings. I know Gary disagrees with me on this one, but I think the politicans who made this their priority made a mistake.
To me, with all the money spent, and the flag simply moved to a more discrete location on the grounds, what was accomplished? Very little that actually impacts people’s lives in my opinion. Plus, what does it say about a group that would defend someone who burns a flag, and comdemn one that flies one when their argument is based on the rights of the first ammendment. Democrats should stick to the issues that affect working people, and only dabble in symbolism, or at least use it more effectively.
For the record, rigging the election, so that the AA candidate could get nominated on the anniversary of MLK’s I have a dream speech is a REALLY BAD use of symbols.
Can’t watch MSNBC, of course. Can’t read Salon or any of my other once favorite blogs.
Air America, of course, is dead to me and has been for months.
Polls being good for Obama just means he doesn’t need my vote!
McKinney for Pres!
Can somone take me out of moderation? I have no idea which thing I said was the naughty one.
I can’t watch anything on tv anymore except CBS Sunday Morning, and that’s practically an entertainment show, I’ve switched to Katie Couric for the news and nothing on MSNBC, CNN or the others. Hell Faux was more fair to Hillary than any of them. My partner Amy and I will NOT for Obama under any circumstances, and I’ll have less trouble holding my nose and voting for McCain than I did for Kerry. Glad you’re all here!!!
Brava, madamab.
Well spoken. The carry-on at kos (and atrios) about the flag-burning law enraged me. The flag is important to people. That kos and other liberal bloggers don’t get shows why their wing of the party can’t win elections.
I look forward to reading more of your posts.
PUMA
Pat, I love you too. I always look forward to the insightful and hillaryous thing you come up with.
Outraged and Teresa: I agree and the sexism of Michelle’s makeover was my first thought too. I don’t agree with her opinions, but at least was encouraged that she had some…
I admired Hillary when Bill was running because she didn’t “tone down” her opinions.
Arabella,
I think a lot Hillary’s actions have been to rehabilitate the Democrats image to imndependents. This was one of those examples. This is how I saw bitter-gate too. Hillary had to repudiate Obama’s comments, because that is exactly the type of thing that sinks Democrats all the time. Elitism. People hate elitists unless they are one.
Prolix:
The bus will have to be converted to a Monster Bus (oh how appropos that name is)!
Pragmatist, Very appropos.
How many times can they possibly cry wolf without it jumping up to bite them in their waffles?
Madamab, you made some excellent points. I’m sure many of us have seen the U.S. flags burned in demonstrations in other countries, and been outraged. Somehow on U.S. soil it’s to be transformed into a free speech issue, and judged differently. The problem is that the visual is so upsetting. Rather like preaching that God should damn the entire country, instead of zeroing in on specific problems that beset us. Burning the flag looks like a rejection of every aspect of what the flag represents and any valid criticism to be made of a particular policy goes up in that same smoke.
Another set of thread marks on the backs of the Clinton Supporters!
http://politicallydrunk.blogspot.com/2008/06/obama-bus-rolls-over-clinton-her.html
Somebody get me a place to march and protest, I am wearing out my carpet!
Marsha [3:21]: omigod, is that you, my Marsha! So you remembered: Ed is my cat.
After all these years and miles apart, to think we end up here together! [Wiping snot off sleeve and sobbing]. That’s incredible.
BTW, have you noticed how many other librarians post here?
I have been lurking and reading and I do not know how I feel about the flag burning. On one side, I don’t like it. But when the verterans came home from VIetnam, I understood their anger at the US. The confederate flag, I don’t get. I really do not understand why a group of people would insist on flying a flag that causes pain to so many.
obama rarely participates in even token gestures that show a person’s love for America. As a child, I was taught you always show respect by taking off your hat, putting your hand over your heart, etc. when saying the pledge of allegiance or singing the national anthem. It was ingrained in us. I have litle patience for those who don’t do it…is it too much to ask? I am not voting for obama because he lacks experience, I believe he is being set up for a big fall and he reminds me of the democratic version of GWB…sad but true.
Oh btw madamab…..ROCK ON
What happened to my post?
More thread marks as the bus goes into reverse and backs over all of us under the bus!
http://politicallydrunk.blogspot.com/2008/06/obama-bus-rolls-over-clinton-her.html
Someone get me somewhere to march and protest, I am wearing out my carpet!
Lately, I have noticed that some of my friends are trying to persuade me that pushing Barack Obama on us was a Republican strategy all along so that the Republicans can win in November.
I find this argument exceedingly short sighted.
It would involve my believing that Howard Dean, Nancy Pelosi, John Kerry, Donna Brazile and so many other party leaders were also working from a Republican template.
In addition, I would also have to believe that traditionally progressive blogs and publications (I need not name them here, as we’re all far too familiar with them) were also working with the Republicans.
Geez, when will the fear mongering stop??
Can an Obama supporter convince me of the reasons to vote for Obama that do not involve Roe v. Wade OR a scary Republican conspiracy?
I really feel like I’m trapped in an alternative universe.
The Obama campaign has based so much of its rhetoric on hate and fear, and somehow those two sentiments have become reasons to vote for him?
Ugh.
Thanks PsstCmere!
Mawm, you made some great points. Martin Luther King Jr. would have been appalled at the way Obama has used race-baiting to solidify AA support behind him and smear the Clintons. I mean, how many historical figures can Obama be? He’s every Kennedy, he’s MLK Jr…Give me a break! He’s just Barack Obama. No amount of marketing or symbolism can make him experienced enough to be President…
madamab, excellent post! I’m a lifelong democrat and flag burning irks me as much as it does any Republican. Love and respect for one’s country has nothing to do with ignoring its problems and shortcomings. I haven’t been in the military for over 30 years, but I still reflexively salute the flag.
Incidentally, regarding the Working Families Party: it must now be nationwide. I have an Oregon Voter Registration card I just got to change my party. The Working Families Party is one that is listed, along with The Pacific Green Party, Independent Party, and a few other 3rd parties. I’m glad you linked to it because I haven’t been able to find any other information about their platform. I just now Googled them and found they won State Certification in Oregon in June of 2006. They were particularly backed by unions here. So perhaps this party is spreading. If nothing else, the elitism we have seen this year underlines the need for a party of working class people.
The next symbol he will take on given his penchant for waffles is Mrs. Butterworth.
Lois: It is ME! HA! Amy and I are going to hear Park Overall do her first stand up comedy tonight. Park is a fierce liberal and we love her.
Thank you Confluence and all you great posters and authors, you keep me from going nuts.
PUMA!!!!!
Cognitive Dissonance: Wow – Working Families is growing! That is really fantastic news. Thanks for letting us know!
What I find amusing is that neither Obama nor the kool-aid kidz seem to have a clue about what motivates PUMA’s.
They make well thought-out arguments that completely miss the mark (and sometimes make things worse) because they are so clueless about us.
The best example is their harping about Roe v. Wade. Did that argument persuade a single voter? Not as far as I can tell.
madamab Terrific Piece!
The arrogance of so many liberals and the condescending attitude towards working class people is something that has bit them repeatedly in the buttocks and will continue to do so. But they are so in love with their own ideas and the sound of their own voices they will never recognize that fact.
Even now, with the party in total disarray, they stand knee deep in Denial and insist we will all come together in the end. If Democrats always did that why is there a large voting block called the “Reagan Democrats”?
KenoshaMarge – Dead on!
The Obamans call them Republicans. That’s the depth of their denial.
I just had a great time un-subscribing from the DSCC and the DCCC. They must be in a world of hurt if they have to use the National Senate and Congressional websites to raise money for Obama.
Working Families party looks nice at first glance. I went to their web-site.
Yes, and this year we are finally calling those democrats by their real name – Clinton Democrats, who once were called FDR Democrats.
There is one in SC.
CognitiveDissonance – They ARE Clinton Democrats. They are the heart and soul of the Party.
That’s why the Democratic Party is soulless and heartless now. The war should have ended on Day One of the 2007 Congressional takeover, but there are too many Blue Dog Dems who don’t want that to happen.
I am a liberal and a cynic. I believe in free speech and I think protesting against the government is a good thing, especially when they start invading other countries.
I would have no hesitation about burning an effigy of George Bush or any other politician who deserved it.
I am also a lawyer and I understand the Constitutional principles that make flag burning a protected form of speech.
But when I see some bozo burning an American flag, it pisses me off.
It doesn’t make me bitter, or make me cling to my guns or religion, it just pisses me off.
myiq2xu – We can’t intellectualize symbols. Symbols work because they hit you in the gut.
You are a patriotic American and don’t like to see people burning the symbol of your country. It makes absolute emotional sense.
Yesterday, a colleague said that I was by nature “conservative.” For the first time in my life I took that as a compliment. I always wanted to be the good liberal. But this election changed me or maybe brought out the inner voice that’s always been there. Personally, I’m thinking it’s going Obama’s way at this point. I can’t believe that I would be so far out of touch with the public’s mood but I was in the last two elections and probalby will be for this one.
ben, I think the label conservative has so many meanings that sometimes it doesn’t have any at all. I think a lot of people are feeling tossed up in the air idealogically this season. Many people have expressed it as “Alternate Universe”, or “Through the looking glass”. I call it the “Upside down Universe”. I saw the last Pirates of the carribean movie some time during the start of the primary. In the movie they had to go upside down to get right-side up. Maybe we have to go through some kind of politcal paradigm shift, because the present situation seems untenable to me.
TM has a piece praising Michele Obama’s appearance on the View today.
The comments are hysterical. Whatever effect Taylor is attempting to produce is going all wrong. The commentators are tearing Michele apart limb from limb. The Hillary supporters are all over the piece blasting Michele for her racist remarks against Hillary. They ain’t buying TMs brand of bs.
TM must be having kittens after all!
hey mawm and friends has anyone seen the recent polling data? I have some strong reservations about Sen Obamas apparent “bounce”.
fuzzybeargville
Really Mawm!: You can’t throw someone into a “conservative” box. There are so many different ways to be conservative or not.
Me, I’m fiscally conservative (we have no debt, not even a house payment). I’m socially liberal. I’m conservative about the healthcare I subject myself to (surgery is a last resort, and only if I’m dying!). I’m liberal in justifying the time I “waste” on the internet (LOL). I’m liberal, in that I think people should be free to think — and vote — the way they want. I would never demand that they vote for X. Etc, etc.
So putting someone in a “liberal” or “conservative” box is not only simplistic, it is also a big bigoted.
In my last post, big = bit.
I’m the self-proclaimed queen of typos. It’s amazing when I read my comments back and they sound so clear, and then I hit the submit button and suddenly I realize that I’ve left out words, spelled things incorrectly , added words when I meant other words, etc, etc.
Sigh.
well in the context in which the label came up it had to do with a type of political philosophy. i saw a poll from ohio that had obama up 6 points which is about where he is in most polls. i constantly hear dukakis was up 19 points at this time. But i don’t think we can look back 20 years.
“Obama Hides Behind Rev. Joseph Lowery-Literally”
This pair of fundraising letters really was full of ironies…
Which I point out….
http://tinyurl.com/48xaj3
It’s all so phony….
Teresa: that fits me too… well, except the house payment part – although we do concentrate on paying it down.
I am WAY social liberal and somewhat environment liberal (recycle everything but still commute).
I would NEVER feel outrage if obama supporters didn’t want to vote for Hillary, even if she gets the nomination somehow. Amused maybe, since they have been doing a lot of chest pounding about what voting our interests and all.
teresa-same here I am the typo king-my big bear paws and these little keys-thats my excuse and I am sticking to it…
fuzzybeargville
New Q polls of OH, FL, and PA are sucking for McCain. I think FL will go back to slightly reddish state status by fall but this poll will make McCain have to compete there.
i am seeing alot of push polling being do this cycle to pos up Obama’s numbers has anyone got an in with some of the polling groups-would love to see their scripts-for the telemarketers-
fuzzybeargville
I have been polled in Ohio but no push polling. Have to watch who goes over 50%.
Re: the polls. I’m really surprised that Obama is leading in FL among women by such a large margin. Just doesn’t feel right to me.
WHAT’S HAPPENED TO MY LIFE IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS:
I’ve been cleansed completely of all television news. I don’t read newspapers, never the news online, no NPR, occasionally I listen to right wing talk radio but how many times can you hear Hannity be called a “great American.” I’m finding Limbaugh funny, questioning global warming, warming up to off shore oil drilling, and spending a lot of time here at The Confluence.
stillife, on June 18th, 2008 at 6:33 pm Said:
Re: the polls. I’m really surprised that Obama is leading in FL among women by such a large margin. Just doesn’t feel right to me.
* * *
It doesn’t feel right because it’s a lie! the pollsters are attempting to sway us in to thinking that obama is inevitable . . . .it’ll never happen . . .he will surely be TOAST!
ben carlson, on June 18th, 2008 at 6:36 pm Said:
WHAT’S HAPPENED TO MY LIFE IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS:
I’ve been cleansed completely of all television news. I don’t read newspapers, never the news online, no NPR, occasionally I listen to right wing talk radio but how many times can you hear Hannity be called a “great American.” I’m finding Limbaugh funny, questioning global warming, warming up to off shore oil drilling, and spending a lot of time here at The Confluence.
* * *
I no longer have satellite or cable because I refuse to pay for (even though I don’t watch) CNN, MSNBC, etc.); I may not even hook up the digital converter box that’s necessary to see my local channels in Feb. 2009 (assuming I don’t buy brand new digital tvs!
do= done
ws,gawn,ben and ter
I have notice for 10 days after Sen Obama claimed to clinch the nomination the preference polls were all about experience and his numbers dropped 47/42 46/42 45/42 the 44/42%.
This week the polls have all been about age and race and obama’s numbers have picked up to 47-50% to 42 for McCain and McCain has been at 42% the whole time.
This has lead me to believe that McCain’s support is firm while Obama’s is soft…do you guys agree? I think something else is going on here to for the conversation to change from experience to race and age?
Fuzzybeargville
I know one thing. A lot of liberals have lived up to right-wing stereotypes.
I can relate, Ben. I’ve turned off CNN, MSNBC, The Daily Show, The Colbert Report. I did watch Morning Joe for awhile, but he went away for a couple of weeks and came back reprogrammed. When I do watch the news, I watch Fox. I find KKKarl Rove insightful and Pat Buchanan refreshingly non-partisan. Oh, I do sometimes watch “Mr. Independent” Lou Dobbs. I think Sean Hannity is kinda cute in a thick-necked fascist sort of way. I can’t take his radio show, though. And I still can’t stand Dick “Toesucker” Morris. What a useless pundit he is.
I stopped reading Rolling Stone when they put Plastic Jesus on the cover. I cringe to think I used to look forward to Frank Rich’s Op Ed pieces. I’m beginning to warm to the idea of states’ rights (I’d like to start by having my state, NY, secede from the Union and elect Hillary as our President).
Ben are you thinking about moving into a log cabin?
Its Obama’s first lead in any poll in Florida. The bounce from the nomination grab must have helped him.
The McCain camp did say they will be down in June and come down after that. We’ll see.
Sorry, totally OT, but I swear to God I read a post here that simulated Obama in a job interview, and he was all “Resume! Resumes ARE in the PAST! Resumes are so OLD SCHOOL! I am THE FUTURE, I am about CHANGE!” etc, and now I can’t find it!
Help me Conflucians! Was that post here? Or am I losing my mind?
mawn,riverdaughter, stillife, and ben
also they are factoring in Hillary on the ticket Sen.obama’s numbers really go south to McCain-I am not sure they are really polling about a McCain Obama race I think it is just more “poisioning the well” against Hillary whiich actually works to our advantage the last thing we need is an Obama/Clinton ticket. Right?
ben i understand your utter disgust with MSM but I have always felt getting inside your adversaries head is the best way to beat him….
Fuzzybeargville
That Log Cabin is looking really good right now.
As for polls, I have no idea what they mean. I don’t watch it but i assume that it’s all obama all the time on tv and mccain is just plodding along. i still haven’t seen obama over 50%. i’m thinking mccain is going to pick a right winger as his running mate to sure up his base. christine whitman isn’t going to work. and if obama picks homophobe sam nunn..oy.
michael P Varvel:
You are correct about getting inside your adversaries’ heads; however, I refuse the ‘immersion’ method; iI will definitely use the ‘controlled approach’ of keeping up with what the enemy is doing . . . via the internet.
Kerry was doing good during the summer until the late August/Early Sept. meltdown. We’ll see what happens by fall.
McCain did come out in support of coastal oil drilling and I wonder if that had an effect in FL.
Mawm, that’s for sure. I sort of knew it all along. My mother is very liberal, but a huge intellectual snob who looks down on the working class. Guess who she’s supporting for President?
who?
Fuzzy, looking at the polls maddens me, because they never do a straight forward poll, they always try and and push their agenda through the types of questions they ask, so you have to dig deeply into their methodology to decipher any amount of truth.
I look at it as propaganda. There is so much unabashed propaganda being peddled lately.
See, we need a Clinton in the White House to make the press do their job. The Clinton Derangement Syndrome will keep them so busy finding things out about Hillary, they won’t have time to think about whether the autumn trees have roots intertwined or not.
I’m still a Democrat. I just don’t want Obama leading the party.
I think people are mor scared of the chinese drillig in the east gulf under the Cuban flag than US drillers chinese have little regard for the enviroment. Also we dont want them stealing our oil throught slant drilling…
I dont think floridians an continue to be part of the problem with out contributing to the solution with reguard to petroleum consumption and production. just keep the rigs over the horizon….out of site out of mind….and florida’s state gov needs the oil royalties to replace lost prop tax revenues.
Fuzzybeargville
Mawn:
Don’t get angry about the polls . . .ignore them for now and focus on convincing anyone and everyone that obama is bad for america (which he is)!
That was quick. Muslims now under the bus:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0608/11168.html
I love this post. Most of my career has been spent working with language and symbolic meaning. Did you know that there was a recent study that shows republican leaning voters and democratic leaning voters are wired differently. Our brains are actually wired differently. I’m sure you are all aware of Lakoff’s book “The Elephant in the Room” in which he talks about the underlying symbols used by each party and how they use language to obfiscate meaning and to speak to their core base groups. If you haven’t read it I recommend it. And yes, Hillary certainly does understand symbolic leadership. It’s those gestures that speak louder than words and that go into the American psyche and influence our votes.
Two things:
1. Rasmussen has Ohio tied. Quite contrary to Q-P.
2. Obama just came out with the “awful truth” that he was lying all the time about being anti-NAFTA. We’ll see what that does to him in Ohio, Penn — and Michigan.
It’s going to be interesting to see new polls.
I’ve come over to the drilling. The price of fuel is not sustainable like this. Inflation is going to kill us. if the fuel prices don’t come down, the average person is going to be squeezed really badly.
Remember the RBC ruling about people not turning out for the florida primary….well we had a big big big property tax reform amendment on the ballot that cold january day and that brought out the numbers…the RBC was flawed everyone who was going to vote in florida did vote. No one stayed home because their vote for the primary did/may not count.
I voted against the prop tax initiative. FYI
Fuzzybeargville
I’m against drilling. Release a portion of the strategic oil reserve for the short term.
The RBC’s supposition that had florida’s primary been held as required would have brought out 3 million democrats was pure fantasy. Had the primary not been held far fewer people would have turned out. I believe by holding the primary with the ballot initiative we enfranchised many more voters than would have come out in a mid february primary….
Fuzzybeargville
I’m by no means an economist or even particularly proficient in the subject, but the way that gas prices are escalating–I see terrible consequences for consumers.
Food prices are increasing because of the added cost–because of gas hikes–of transporting goods.
Sure, manufacturers, producers and the like are probably adding more to the cost of each item than they’re actually paying out because of the spikes in gas prices, but still…
It is getting to that point where I can envision $10 per gallon gas and gas rationing.
The economy looks really scary to me right now.
This something to ponder at Hillbuzz:What exactly was that meeting about?
It’s hearsay but they claim their source is truthful.
Larry Johnson has a good post at No Quarter about Hillary supporters meeting with McCain. Mostly the bulk of the article is about Hillary. It’s worth reading.
Never forget.
NObama 08.
Slight change of subject here. My answer when people ask why I’m a PUMA has been “because Obama isn’t qualified”. But now I have a vivid example.
Back in the summer of 1980, I was a second year law clerk in the US Atty’s office in San Francisco. The big case that summer was a complex RICO prosecution by Robert Mueller, who eventually became head of the FBI. Very impressive man, even then. This is his background – Princeton, Vietnam Vet (Bronze Star, Purple Heart), law review at UVA, Federal prosecutor, partner at a top-flight Boston law firm, etc. And as head of the DOJ criminal division from 1989-1993, he oversaw the Noreiga prosecution, the Pan Am Flight 103 case and the Gotti prosecution.
And Obama, who couldn’t even make partner, wants to be this guy’s boss? Spare me.
I have kind of come around to the drilling as well. The thing is, it will take 5 years or so (I think) to get all the infrastructure to get it flowing up. I can pretty much gurantee that there will be the political will to drill in the U.S., dues to even higher gas prices, by that time.
I would call it prudent. Most Americans seem to be able to tell drilling is no kind of “solution” (even if it is the only one Republicans have) of any kind. It will just soften the blow and that is significant.
There is a Working Families Party in Massachusetts.
http://massworkingfamilies.org/
regencyg, that is an interesting post. It makes a certain amount of sense, but I still have a hard time imagining Obama offering Hillary the VP slot. I think Obama and the DNC want her out of the picture.
regencyg, I was also very interested in that article at Hillbuzz. It speculates that the Patti Solis-Doyle hire was his response to what he and Clinton talked about in secret at Sen. Feinstein’s house. According to this report, Clinton refused the VP slot and told him to expect limited campaigning from her and Bill. Don’t know if this is true, but it’s an interesting read:
The Secret Clinton/Obama Meeting
I just don’t understand why Hillary would possibly want the VP position. There seems to be absolutely no up side for her. Am I missing something?
Something that needs to be kept in mind about these polls is the actual group that they sample. I’ve read in a couple of different places today that they are assuming that 55-60% of voters will be democrats. I really don’t see how that can be accurate. Yes, democrats now outnumber republicans. But they forget about the large number of independents out there, and McCain seems to be leading that group right now.
Stillife,Kim, Ben
How I relate!
Ditto to same subscriptions cancellations (NPR, NYT etc) and news channels. Rarely watch any “news”. Finally, when even AP’s biased became so blatant, it was as if some veil had been lifted. I now see how conservatives were turned off by some of us. How arrogant and condescending we might have seemed to many. Not that some on the far right weren’t out there-but how the Move-On, Cheetos, MSNBC crowd were their twins on the other extreme. I was just caught up in the Matrix
Yet, in a weird way what has occurred has been strengthening and empowering, not only to Hillary but to many of her supporters as well. I used to watch all these silly ass pundits, devour articles and books, now.. ehh, whatever. I’ve been liberated.
We were all witness to Hillary’s rebirth.
I think it was right after the debate in Texas; her closing had a resigned feel to it.
And then… something happened, it was as if she reached into some inner hidden pocket of strength. “Meet me in Ohio!” and boy did she ever -that woman was on fire, she took Ohio by storm, rocketed out of PA and till the last primary she kept not only winning but mopping the floor with Obama. NO ONE can deny her that. They may try to diminish her but the reality was Obama ended on a whimper. With the media in the tank for him, outspending her 3 and 4 to one, her party betraying her, her “friends” abandoning her, It was all her, and people saw that.
Senator Clinton, wherever you are… I salute you.
Stilllife, I believe if it happened, the offer was perfunctory at best. Frankly BO strikes me as a guy who offers things with no intention to follow through. He wanted her capitulation. He got resistance and was not sure how to respond to it.
Hillary doesn’t want VP. She wants to be President. There is no upside to VP.
Why was Lanny Davis apparently pushing it? Was there a strategic reason?
cog thanks for your analysis of indie voters I believe there are alot of people looking for an excuse to not vout for Sen. Obama as opposed to looking for an excuse to vote for McCain? anyone agree?
Fuzzybeargville
I can see it happening that way, regencyg. No way would he have made her a sincere offer. He was probably scratching his face with his middle finger while he talked.
It feels like there is so much that is/was behind the scenes. I would love to know. I guess I never will.
Lanny Davis does NOT work for Hillary. He’s playing a party loyalist. That does not mean that’s Hillary’s take. She has repeatedly stated that she doesn’t not want nor is she seeking VP.
vout = vote sorry again-
Fuzzybeargville
I know how Republicans will frame the federal coastal oil drilling ban/ANWR: that is those crazy loony environmentals/liberals care more about fish and caribou than lowering gas prices. But I really don’t want to allow future Republican administrations to be given the “keys to the kingdom” and they’ll just open up untouched area after area for their big business buddies.
There are ways both meaningful and symbolic for the gas crunch, which as it happens is just like Hillary’s plan… but I’m not like BO and plagiarizing, I just think its a great plan.
Release a portion of the strategic oil reserve. Its 97% full right now and releasing it can help lower the gas prices in the very short term unlike oil drilling.
Gas tax suspension. Some say its just for show but symbolism can be powerful too and the American people can see that the government is at least doing something. But as it turns out, the gas price suspension in Illinois did help truckers and lower consumer products in Illinois.
For the long term, move away from oil, renewable, fuel efficient yada yada yada.
regencyg, I understand that he doesn’t work for her and that she wouldn’t want the VP slot, but he was so pitch perfect all along and then that. I wonder why, that’s all.
I forgot about investigating oil speculators. That was in Hillary’s plan too.
stillife I am with you. I don’t think he wants her with him. Obama cannot have the Clintons near his corruption. The plan was to neutralize them in the party. Maybe offering VP would be neutralizing though. Keep your enemies close type of thing. Keep her out of the senate.
Robin, I think it’s because previously he was being sincere. Then, he wasn’t and the difference was notable.
Here’s David Shuster’s memory of Tim Russert:
Yeah, the two of them were going to laugh about Shuster’s “pimping out” statement about Chelsea.
The evil. It stings, doesn’t it?
I still think God is a woman — or a rabid feminist.
BTW: the source of that statement was TVNewser. I won’t link. I don’t like the spam folder
.
Robin, try reading that Hillbuzz article. While it is hearsay, it seems fairly reasonable.
Or recently had a sex change.
well if the fed and the options boards increased the margin for energy speculation from 10% (now) to 50% like in the stock market, the price of Oil would come down .
Speculators would be driven out as their cost to profit ratio would go down. the cost of their risk capital would go up they would would not be so richly rewarded.
Now a 10%. increase in the price of crude and natural gas contracts equal a 100% profit to the speculator not bad for a days work(sarcasm drips on that word work.)
Commodities are complicated and risky no ordinary joe should be in this market.
Fuzzybeargville
One last thought on drilling, the American people will forget were drilling in a specific area and the Republicans will fire up their noise machine for the next pristine place they want to pillage.
Anyways, there was this story about the scorpion about the scorpion and the fox. The two animals both had to cross a mighty river in front of them. The scorpion asked:
“Fox, can I climb on your back so I can get across the river?”
The fox said yes and the scorpion got on his back and started to wade across the river. In the middle of the river, the scorpion stung the fox on the back. As they were sinking, the fox cried:
“Why did you do that? Now we’re both going to drown!”
The Scorpion replied:
“I’m sorry. Its my nature”
Like the story? Ok, its from Chakotay in Star Trek Voyager but I really like it. The Republicans are just like the scorpions so watch out for them. We’re PUMAs though and quicker and smarter than the fox. Just don’t turn your back on the scorpion.
Schuster is a tool. His “apology” was such a study in childish whining.
He gets the honor of being the one guy out of all the sexists parading around this primary that Clinton called out. He should feel special.
Tim Russert, Ted Kennedy, and Iowa under water. ‘Nuff said.
Of course when the market bumped up by speculation finally falls its usually fast and the little guy/girl gets screwed really bad. Can anyone say Real Estate or dot com bubble?
Fuzzybeargville
regencyg, thanks for that link. That was what got me thinking about it. Lanny’s pushing of the VP spot seemed like such a false note at the time. I can’t imagine that he would have done something so contrary to her position, only for BO to offer her the VP spot and her to turn it down. It doesn’t fit, for me. It’s nagging at the back of my mind. I feel that we don’t have enough real information, which I am sure is fascinating. I wish I had been a fly on the wall for many of the events in this election.
No HRC as VP! I would so, SO LOVE it if that story from HillBuzz were true.
Don’t give up, Hillary!
She’s on vacation now according to the Hill, somewhere secluded, for a whole month. I’m secretly hoping that she is going to be in the same place I am so I can run up to her and say DON’T QUIT!!!
Such a fangurl I am.
madamab, my mom loved your one-act play!
And there’s no bigger fangurl than me. I’m such a fangurl that I write political short stories where Hillary is the heroine. You’ve got nothing on me.
WS, you are right, and I am fully aware that I am probably being manipulated, but the strategic reserves are just a short term solution really, and because of our inaction on alt energy we need a 5-10 year plan that gets oil prices lower so we can effectively expand other sources. Both Obama and McCain seem to favor nuclear, so I guess that is what we are going to get(barring a july/Aug miracle).
I don’t know what the answer is, but I know that gas prices like this are going to cause us big problems. People were already having trouble making ends meet. Now, we are all going to be paying a lot more for things, and probably not getting raises
I am so impressed with the justsaynodeal site it is comming along…Riverdaughter I hope everything is going well (OT sorry) the fact that the coalition is so big tent allowing each organization and individual come up with their own strategy for defeating Obama in Denver and in November?
This is such a novel anti-autocratic approach hope the Obama-bots dont copy it. If they do they may win….
Fuzzybeargville
regencyg – you rock! I loved your post about voting for the first time. Tell your mom thanks…and you are right, I have not reached that level of fangurldom…
YET!
LOL
Okay, guys I’ve just gotten this off the grapevine. Take it or leave it:
Gawl, I so wish I could be happy about this election. I feel so cheated.
/venting.
I work for a municipal utility guys our fuel cost briefings were dismal today because the fuel contracts to supply us the oil coal and natural gas we need to make kilowatts expired….we are looking at rising prices through 2010 even if the cost of energy drops.
Ower cost of fuel per kilowatt hour (kwh)has risen from 2.5 cents to 5.5 cents since 2005 that is an increase of 120% and our top tier for electric base costs has risen from 5.5 cents per kwh to 9.7 cents per killowatt.
Electricity for your home is going to be a luxury to soon.
Fuzzybeargville
regencyg – that feels right to me. The overwhelming support Hillary had in the primaries, the way Obama gasped and wheezed to the end and was losing by 40% in key swing states…the Obamanation is simply a lot, LOT smaller than they are making it appear.
Sort of like a side mirror on your car.
Mawm, I agree that people are hurting and the cost of everything is rising. I don’t know why the Dem Congress doesn’t start investigating oil speculation right now. Its not like the Repubs had to get permission for their investigations/witch hunts on President Clinton. Also, investigations into oil speculation is quite popular so its not like its a politically risky in an election year to do that.
I winced when the Repubs call the Dem Congress a do nothing Congress and now I believe them.
I guess I will have to give up my arugalla smoothies and my Mocha Royal Lattes… I am going to be reduced to third world status….and the big O doesnt care just keep on Hoping?
Fuzzybeargville
Patti Solis Doyle: If Obama knew her well before and in Chicago, then it would seem that perhaps Ms. Doyle was a plant/mole in the HRC campaign and the failure to craft a real approach in caucus states and beyond Super Tuesday was perhaps a deliberate act of sabotage. What made HRC select Doyle as her campaign manager when she had so many possibilities from which to choose, including someone like James Carville?
Someone mentioned upthread about the Rasmussen Ohio poll:
Its 44-43 McCain.
Oh Jeebus…what is with this Larry Sinclair stuff?
That whole story is so outrageous that I’d have to see video to believe it were true.
There are plenty of reasons to dislike Obama – we don’t have to make more up, now, do we?
WS be still my beating heart 44-43 McCain? over the Big O? mmmm-
Did any one get the Dean email that the DNC is going to spend $$$ sueing John McCain for President for agreeing to Federal Matching Fund for the primary and then backing out?
I dont think the party can afford this lawsuit…but its their money any one else get this letter -there was a request to sign a petition and make a contribution to tne DNC.
Of course I love getting things from the party and it had been awhile- I and my wallet were feeling unwanted
Fuzzybeargville
of course I sent them my two cents worth and a piece of my mind…they have so little gray matter at the ol’DNC HQ these days…..
fuzzybeargville
regencyg – I’ll take it!
Teresa, I agree with you. I feel so “meh” about the election now. It’s boring without Hillary. Despite Obama’s supposed charisma, he’s actually very boring.
Well maybe the big O did not get his childhood vacination for smallc*cks?
sooooo sorry could not resist
Fuzzybeargville channeling Bette Midler
Yeah, the Ras poll is right here
And just how is Obama going to pay for his non unversal health care plan and other programs if he’s thinking about cutting the business tax???
I wouldn’t be surprised if the Hillbuzz report on the Obama/Clinton meeting is true in terms of the VP. Obama is no idiot, and he has to know that he can’t win without Hillary’s base. But Hillary is smarter.
First I think she knows many of us would be insulted and very disappointed if she took the second spot to such an unqualified candidate. Second, I think she and Bill don’t believe Obama can win even with her on the ticket, so why should she do it? Third, I think she still believes Obama could go down in flames before the convention (I think that too). Fourth, I think Hillary has no motivation to help Obama after the campaign he ran against her. She will continue to be graceful on the surface, but underneath, she is disgusted by him and will be happy to see him go down. Maybe she even knows something and will give him a push.
Tim and David were going to have a beer and a laugh at how they were part of the conspiracy to take down the Clinton’s so that they could have their historic moment in Denver at the anniversary of MLK speech and would have a life time of blathering with KO and Chris to discuss it.
Well, guess what Timmy – the plan didn’t work!
OOO madamab, me too. I wonder if she has friends in Kansas City?
Also, for people who want to post links, I wrote an HTML tutorial at my own blog that makes it easy to format them.
Jangles,
I don’t think Solis Doyle is any kind of plant. She worked for Hillary and Bill when they were in the WH and has been very close to Hillary for years. She did a poor job on this national campaign and got fired. Maybe she has hard feelings, but she’s not a “mole.”
DO NOT BELIEVE THE POLLS!
The people running the polls have an agenda and can and will get the results they want by the questions and the way they pose the questions.
McCain is winning and will if Hillary is not the Nominee.
When Obama finds out the polls are inaccurate, they will all be under the bus with the rest of us.
Great post. I know this is off topic, but we need to help Hillary retire her debt. I called the campaign finance office to verify where and how we can contribute. I’ve posted a diary on MyDD (you can imagine the response over there) that has the details and some other groups that are fund raising to help retire the debt. Give what you can. I’d rather us retire her debt, than have the MSM speculate another day as to which way Hillary will have to bend over to get Obama to retire her debt.
Thank you, thank you, thank you Katiebird.
I had no idea how to do those things until now.
Thank you.
What is going on over at Fox News? Their reporting on Obama the last few weeks has been tepid. Usually they are fired up and ready to go but their silence is troubling. They were even nice about Michele which is a huge departure. Something is up.
What is going on over at Fox News? Their Obama coverage these last few weeks has been tepid at best. They have even been kind to Michele which is unusual. Something is up over there.
madamab, another great one, thanks! so glad you’re posting here (and I like your own blog too! )
Pat: I know. It seems the McCain campaign has also cut the motor, dropped the anchor and is drifting.
It’s all very wierd. On one level, I wonder if they actually want Obama to win so he can own this disasterous economy.
On the other hand, it’s just too freaking quiet.
WS – diverdaughter and all
i read that McCains favorables have increased 5 points since Hillary dropping out. My take on this is that Conventional wisdom was wrong and she had more republican/moderate cross over appeal than thought.
Or maybe the move of millions of Hillacrats to McCain or at least consider him favorably over Obama has started?
It could also be that the justsaynodeal crowd is actually having an effect in the polls in such a short time.
what you all think value your opinion?
fuzzybeargville
I am very suspicious. They are much too accommodating over there. Not their usual rabid rantings that I have gotten used to.
The blogs are alive with the wonder of Michele! I am gagging on a spoon.
Thanks, kiki!
Michael P – there is no way Independents will go for Obama. McCain the Maverick will peel them away. His whole schtick is made for Independents.
look there is always info in the polls that is worth paying attention to….even if it getting the drift of what the pollster is tryng to force from the pollee….look McCain up last week when the conversation is about experience….Obama has another short bounce when the conversation is about age and race. The knowledge gained is useful.
With out giving away all of our strategy to our advesary who is no doubt listening or reading I will lety you draw your conclusins.
Fuzzybeargville
I read somewhere the other day that republicans are being very careful since the Obama campaign has successfully framed criticism of him as racism. they realize if Obama could paint the Clintons as racist, it would be very easy to apply that label to republicans since lots of people view their party unfavorably in that respect anyway.
Well made points madamab!!!
I’ve been sorta thinking Obama is going to win this thing ONLY because McCain is running such a pathetic campaign, if you can even call it that. On the other hand, I have been selectively interrupting my boycott of AirObama and have been struck by how all the hosts seem to be repeating the mantra of what awful things will happen if we vote for McCain. Given that they are preaching to their audience consisting of the Obama choir, WTF is their emphasis on NOT voting for McCain unless someone somewhere is worried? Just color me curious.
I could not agree with you more madamb, and the reagan/casey dems will go for him also. But the big O must be crazy that Hillary leaving the campaign did not improve his favorables to level exceding John McCain.
Fuzzybeargville
way OT, but someone above mentioned the tv converter boxes – did y’all know the coupons for them expire? the boxes aren’t necessary until January ‘09, but we just realized yesterday that our coupons expired last month.
favorability is important in tracking the lemming effect in politics whe on candid ate is viewed significantly mor efavorable in the polls it convinces fence sitters to give them another look as the day of desision approaches. If gas drops to $ 2.00-$2.50 a gallon I bet it is a real McCain landslide.
Fuzzybeargville
this sounds carzy, but I’ve been wondering if the republicans want Obama to inherit the economy and the war, and they’re really looking to 2012, figuring four years will erase all the bad feelings W has caused. I kinda don’t think they want McCain anyway, so they’re sacrificing him and looking to the future. politics is a very strange business.
favorability is important in tracking the lemming effect in politics whe on candid ate is viewed significantly mor efavorable in the polls it convinces fence sitters to give them another look as the day of desision approaches. If gas drops to $ 2.00-$2.50 a gallon I bet it is a real McCain landslide.
Fuzzybeargville
carzy….yeah, I meant to say that. it’s a new word I made up
Varvel, I don’t know what to think of the favorability numbers. I’m sure the Republicans will once again use attacks to drive up the Dem’s negatives. BO’s past will make it easier for them.
kiki – I think it’s a win-win for them.
If Obama wins, they get to blame Bush’s mess on a weak Democrat.
If McCain wins, they get a Republican Presnit in a Democratic year.
The only way they lose is if Hillary becomes the nominee, because she is the only one strong enough to get us out of it AND take on the wingnuts at the same time.
know if McCain wins the republican brand becomes valuable….again and repudiates the belief that bush distroyed the “brand” the brand is resilient in adversity.
fuzzybearville
so I guess the repubs are kind of ambivalent. winning may be important to McCain, but maybe not so much to his party.
and winning is important to Obama, but not so much to 50% of his party.
very odd election year.
Is anyone gonna be on the conference call with Hillary tomorrow?
Michael, I don’t know that McCain can polish the brand. W is very unpopular and JM wouldn’t represent much change (oy – there’s that word)
Faux Olbermann Special Comment:
“Sen. Obama Sir, you have again backed off of your original position that you are the Transcender. You were the one who predicted that you would be able to unite this country as has no one else who has ever gone before you.
Now you have taken aim at Muslim women. Women who wear headscarves and not allowed to appear in a tableau behind you onstage. I am outraged, Sir. Outraged! Where is your decency, your call for unification, your insistence on party unity when you permit this to happen in your name?
You Sir have again stood back and blamed your staff for this blunder! You Sir have never taken responsibility for anything that has gone wrong in your campaign! You Sir are unmistakenly a fraud!
I feel Sir that it is my right to ask that as you were an only child whom did you blame when things went wrong? When you spilled the milk, stole the cookie, left the bathtub running?
Again, I am outraged, palpitating, fuming at your lack of courage! Let it be said that no candidate can achieve high office by blaming others. I Sir am appalled! And I am seriously running out of exclamation points!!!!”
regencyg, I signed up for the call.
The Obama campaign representative was freaked out because their inside polling was indicating that people are just going to stay home in November. People don’t trust Obama and they think McCain is too out of touch to be President.
Ha. That’s exactly what my parents told me. Don’t like McCain, don’t trust Obama.
Pat Johnson -
Brava!!! [throws bouquet]
YOU should write a play!
kiki-Hillary said it best a win is a win is a win and a McCain win would say hey the fundies are not running the show here
fuzzybeargville
Stilllife, will you live blog? Will anybody?
Pat,
The kick line:
Sen. Obama, you sir are awash in chadars.
I been out of reach of a computer all day…
just before I go to bed, I wanted to congratulate madamab (also enjoyed the one crossposted yesterday by kbird).
Nice….
regencyg, I’ll do what I did for the McCain phone call last Saturday. I’ll type while I listen and post it on the Clinton LJ community when it’s done. If you want to re-post it here, that’s fine with me. Of course, maybe somebody else here will be live-blogging it.
lol Pat
Hillary confrence call? she is going to try to convince you to vote obama….
do you rally want to here her say that?
fuzzybeargville
thanks UpstateNY!
This is what happens when you shun the news, cancel mag subscriptions, tune out the Obama huzzahs. It is just amazing to me that the press can go to town on Cindy McCain’s “family recipe’s” yet let the Obama connections quietly disappear.
The story is out there yet few follow the trail.
And can we now safely say that Tim Russert has been laid to rest? Nothing against Tim but there is less coverage of the boys being flown home from combat in coffins yet his death produced almost as much coverage as Gerald Ford’s passing. Give it a rest.
what about the confrence call? how do you sign up for it///just want to know
Upstate, how’s the house coming along?
I hope not, fuzzy bear. I have some trepidation about the call, but I hope it’ll be about retiring her campaign debt (it’s a finance committee call) and not about jumping on the Unity Pony.
there is nothing at the site formerly know as hillaryclinton.com
I got an e-mail, I guess because I’m a maxed-out contributor. I replied to the e-mail and they will e-mail me tomorrow a.m. with phone-in information.
I’ve signed up to a couple of her conference calls before, but they were always earlier in the day when I had to work. This one is at 5 p.m. and I get off work at 4, so I’ll be able to make it easily.
The McCain call worked differently. I e-mailed them my number and they called me.
I wish Hillary would do something to liven up this election year. I know I’m not the only one feeling like it’s shaping up to be pretty boring. as of right now, I would expect incredibly low voter turn-out come january.
Cool, stillife. I forgot you also posted there. I haven’t been back in a bit.
kiki: it is coming along, but slowly.
Removal of old wall paper, ended yesterday. Preparation of walls took place today (and some more tomorrow).
Painting of floors and walls will happen next week and then, hopefully we will be moving.
The rest, will take place once we are living there.
Now I must leave, I am pooped, big time.
See you all in the morning and remember to vote wisely.
wow, low voter turnout come January. I bet I’m right about that! but of course, I meant November.
Hillary will do what she has to but I’ll be honest, I’m in Hillary withdrawal. I need her to do something. I’m bored. She can have a fit on the call and call BO every name in the book if it suits her. I’ll make it my ringtone. I’ve put aside pretty much all other hobbies for this and they hold limited interest for me now. She is my hobby.
*shrug*
hang in there Upstate, it will be wonderful!!!
kiki, on June 18th, 2008 at 10:00 pm Said:
I wish Hillary would do something to liven up this election year. I know I’m not the only one feeling like it’s shaping up to be pretty boring. as of right now, I would expect incredibly low voter turn-out come january.
I would expect zero turnout in january. I assume you mean November.
that’s kinda what I meant Regency – this Obama – McCain thing just isn’t that interesting.
Hillary has been my favorite pasttime for a while now.
Melanie
I agree, kiki and regencyg. Obama – McCain is BORING!
That’s one reason why I signed up for the conference call. I want to hear her voice! Of course, if the purpose of the call is to gin up support Obama, it’ll break my heart.
I just took a trip over to the Hillary 1000 blog that I had bookmarked and visited from time to time. The fact that it bears the name Hillary speaks for itself.
Well guess what? They are just over the moon about Michele! Ecstatic! You can feel the shift going to Obama from that group already. You know, party unity. I truly don’t get it. This same blog, although the traffic has been mostly light over there, has been bashing him for months. Now it is all one big happy unified party!
I almost left a message suggesting they may want to change the name but I didn’t. Not even in the mood to amuse myself.
Pat – why do you need a spoon? I can gag quite nicely without even thinking when someone mentions MO.
kiki, I totally agree. This election is about as exciting as watching paint dry. I miss Hill.
kiki/Melanie/Regencyg – Obama/McCain is a yawnfest. They’re both so wishy-washy and can’t commit to any position for more than five seconds.
I want Hillary back too!
regencyg – ME TOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
I want Hillary!
Pat Johnson – One word: Astroturfing.
She is getting the warm and fuzzy treatment as we speak. I guess it is not important to remember that she too sat in that church for 20 years and absorbed the hate and radicalism that it preached. Nope, she is a “star” now. Sickening.
I’m just going to amuse myself by imagining how, if Hillary was the presumptive (presumptuous? ) nominee, The View would have made-over the Big Dog.
I detest hypocrisy almost as much as I hate someone lying to my face.
I will make my biweekly contribution of $ 25.00 to the hillary campaign Its all I can afford now….but nothing for obama or the dnc…
fuzzybeargville
I can’t help thinking if only Bill had put on a pillbox hat we’d still have a candidate
I know! I just want to hear her. That voice is one I trust. That one and Big Dog’s of course. I feel an unbelievable hopelessness about the future without her in the lead. I have no concerns about her–she’s got grit, she’ll be back, but what becomes of the country while she’s shaking the haters off?
kiki, I’ve heard similar speculation about the Dems & Obama. Run the black candidate to keep the AA vote, expect him to lose but sacrifice this election and come back in 2012 to win w/o the Clintons.
All this speculation is probably just garbage, but it’s hilarious to think that both the Repubs & Dems want to sacrifice this election. Neither party will step forward and be president.
This campaign is boring. The press is proclaiming Obama the “presumptive” winner and McCain is falling all over himself with his awkward stance on positions. The public is “falling in love” with Michele and Cindy’s recipes are being attacked. Boring, boring, boring.
Should we leave or should we stay, should we drill or not, how high can gas prices go, what effect will the flooding have on food prices, debates or not? They just shrug and move on to how many women will return in November to vote for Obama. It is nauseating. We are stuck with two of the worst choices ever.
Where is the only person who actually wants to be President and take on this cluster*)$^?
Go get her!
We all seem to be a bit down today. Probably because we’ve been working for one thread for so long. Also, Mccain doesn’t seem to be making any progress in the polls. And Hillary isn’t really doing much by us by sticking with this man. Whatever happened to her t-shirt contest???
The Repubs really do not want to see a Dem in the WH. Too afraid of investigations when Bush steps aside. Not to worry GOP, the only thing left “on the table” are the saltcellars. Your guy paved the way and the Dems will merely expand upon it. This crew is not interested in reform. They only want the power.
The most interesting thing in the election so far was when BZero and Lieberman were caught making out in the corner of the Senate.
Well, now that Obama threw 6 million angry American Muslims and a billion + angry Muslims from the rest of the world under the bus, it is really getting quite crowded. But, to tell you the truth, I like the company.
And the other interesting thing was watching the members of the Dem Party become Benedict Arnold’s.
Regencyg – bring on the only person that can fix this cluster@Y(H!
Hillary, Hillary, Hillary, Hillary
I feel like everyone is depressed tonight!
I want to help Hill -and some seditious pro hillary folks are still posting videos on Hillaryspeaksforme.com?
fuzzybeargville
As one of those constituencies who got thrown under the bus first, let it be known that I have no intention of sharing my M and M’s with the newcomers. Either they bring their own or they go without.
I just went to hillary’s webstie and there’s a very terse message to support Obama. You can put your name there and a message. I was afraid to put anything there because I was worried it would be showing support to Obama and they would get my email.
Anyone bored enough to beta a couple of potential posts for me? I need another set of eyes. I’ve just spent a couple of days writing a story that’s skyrocket to nearly 16,000 words and I’m seeing things.
what does ‘beta a couple posts” mean?
look, as far as I know, none of us here is a politician, and we just don’t think the way they do. we, if we’re lucky, are looking ahead a few months or years, and if we’re currently unlucky, are looking ahead in terms of days or weeks. we’re hoping we’ll continue to be o.k. if we’re currently o.k., and the cost of living has us all worried.
they, on the other hand, are totally concentrating on 2012. they will personally be o.k., that’s a given, but they think in terms of power shifts and that’s long-term thinking.
I thought, and still think, that Hillary was different this year. she may not even have started out that way, but I think she really did come into her own and really did get a handle on a vision for the country and for us that transcended politics as usual. that that was thrown away is monumentally sad, and a sorry commentary on the state of politics in this country.
now we’re all feeling a little bored and a lot hopeless about the near future, and the near future is where we dwell.
and btw, why AREN’T we politicians? it sure seems like they’re all filthy rich and only work a couple of hours a week, if that.
I would do it but I don’t know how.
Ben, just skip it and go to the homepage.
Garychapelhill said upthread:
I see what you’re saying but a symbol is one thing and the reality — the Constitutional protection of free speech — is another. Yesterday Obama actually said a good thing (believe it or not) when he said, “We can crack down on terrorists within the constraints of our Constitution.” He went on to say:
I’ve been hoping that Democrats would come up with a national security policy approach to terrorism putting more emphasis on law enforcement and less emphasis on military force and “war.” (See “Law vs War” at http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/library/report/2005/pub613.pdf).
On a political/PR level, the Constitution, an old piece of parchment, dry, abstract, and not emotionally appealing, is competing with the American flag for attention and respect. Yet the Constitution is the reality that the American flag is a symbol of. The Constitution says we can burn the flag, the beloved symbol of our nation. That’s how much freedom the Constitution gives us — and that’s how much freedom can be taken away if we outlaw flag-burning. The Constitution itself would be diminished. Bush, Cheney and their sycophantic cronies in Congress used 9/11 to hijack the Constitution. It will be a long climb back up the mountain to restore the Constitution fully to its state as it existed before 9/11. Much as I criticize Obama, I’m pleased he’s taking a few steps back up the mountain.
Yes, there are pitfalls of naïveté here. Politically flag-burning is a problem for Democrats to look like we “hate America” (just as upholding the Constitution makes Democrats look “soft on terror”) but flag-burning, in part because the flag is so beloved, is extremely rare, done only in the most dire circumstances as a form of free speech to protest, and when done the severity of the act draws attention. Thus I have to agree with Garychapelhill that “it should [not] be illegal to burn flags, and we certainly don’t need a constitutional amendment against it.” Because it is a freedom guaranteed in the Constitution and I value the Constitution more than the symbol of the flag, I say let flag-burning be “safe, legal and rare” and make this the political frame to say “America is as strong as our Constitution.”
Long may they wave.
Sorry, that’s fan-speak for peruse and edit. I tend to leave words out in my “passion” to write and it’s nice to have a couple of extra eyes to see if anything’s missing or if the grammar is questionable.
amen Kiki. even if this website weren’t here our votes and attitudes would still be the same.
oh, well i’m great with grammar if you ever need someone to do that.
they are very uplifiting….well its bed time for fuzzybeargville tomorrow is another day Love and sweet dreams to all of you-
Hillary Clinton 2008/2012 I have a dream….
Barak Obama for Cook County dog catcher 2010-sorry I like dogs scratch this
fuzzybeargville
This is a comment from the Larry Show today at the NPC. I thought it would cheer everyone up.
Could you ask Obama’s people to get rid of my neighbors for me? They’re really loud with their rock and roll music at night. Thanks.
And, hey, by the way….
Obama’s people, if you are reading this right now. Please kill me by smothering me with a pillow–instead of shooting me or something.
I don’t want to wake my roommates.
Thanks again
I can try to help you regency.
The smily face in my message above wasn’t put there by me. It showed up when I posted comment. Sorry for any confusion. There should be end of parens where smily is.
I think we’ve all been officially stomped out. This movement will exist only in the privacy of the voting booth in November.
Thanks, Pat. Mmm, can I email them to you or do you have an alternate method I can use to send the posts to you?
Ben, if you’re interested, I’m more than glad to have more than a single pair of eyes here.
The posts here are so remarkable that I just want mine to be impeccable when I post them.
we all do seem a little down tonight.
speaking for myself, I had a tire blow out Monday, a bad reaction to some seafood Tuesday, a root canal today and I have a mammogram scheduled tomorrow.
Friday’s clear so I’m expecting BO to say or do something particularly annoying, to round out the week.
dissenta – the bill that Hillary sponsored was deemed Constitutional. There is no way she would abrogate the sanctity of the Constitution to protect the flag.
This is a false dichotomy. We can protect both the symbol AND the reality.
ben carlson – sorry you’re feeling down, but the movement is in its infancy. We can’t give up right when we’re starting to make a difference.
regency patjohnson45@yahoo.com
kiki: You still have your sense of humor!
dissenta, I’ve learned to leave a space between your last character and your *close parenthesis* symbol.
otherwise you end up “smiling” where you really didn’t mean to.
Guys, I don’t know if y’all hang around at another refuge of the former Marshans (now called the Camillians), but they’re pretty upbeat there today. Lots of interesting conversations everyday. And it’s damned lively. So far every post (there are several throughout the day) always had upwards for 300 comments. It’s very lively.
I hope I don’t get in trouble for this, but here it is: Blue’s Place.
They post daily PUMA action items so that we remain a loud and powerful force. No one’s stamped out there. They remain very in touch with the pulse of the movement on a daily basis. People are pretty constantly writing and calling to Lou and Corbett. They get down too, but they’ve got more Hope than BO can shake his Ba-Rocks at it.
i just dont see where it is going. hillary has ended her quest. she and her husband have been officially cleansed from the history books. there’s nothing fucking left.
Has anyone looked over at Tm today? She is giving us a National Security Briefing. She is criticing John McCain and the terrorists.
Did I miss something in her backgroud – Actress, Porn, CIA ???????????//
Pat, my feeling is you’ve gotta laugh. I know from your posts that you understand that, and your posts often make me laugh and brighten my day. I appreciate that!
ben: We have Michele.
Ben – (slap on the face) – snap out of it!
Carol: I thought she had a legitimate radio show since I never heard of her until this past January. She broadcasts from her freaken’ bedroom! She purchased a blog and broadcasts from her freaken’ bedroom!!!!!!!!!!!
funny, Carol.
hey, here’s the deal….this is a bad year for me. my boss is up for election as is my partner. and well, I just wonder if i’m going to go three for three on election night.
ben: You are an attorney; find a defense in here somewhere!
Ben, this movement is bigger than Hillary. It’s about fixing this g*ddamn party and hopefully–if we’re lucky, blessed, and crafty as f$%^–installing Hillary as the ventual nominee. This can’t just be about her. And it isn’t. It’s about refusing to stand silent while the Democratic Party does a drunk-and-stupid rendition of the Republicans’ Full Monty. They’re showing their asses and we’re holding up a mirror.
It’s time to get even–with everybody. Hillary’s hanging in there the only way she can. I’m with her until the gavel bangs. Frankly, I’m with her until she dies, then I’ll write another full-throated, soft-hearted biography for her. I’m a lifelong fan of hers. But that’s just my story.
What we’re here to do is what Barack Obama promised he’d do as a leader. We’re gonna change politics. It’s going fairly smashing given how little time we’ve had.
lol Carol, there is some porn thing. I read about it on her blog one day but I forget the details. he was a producer or something.
kiki — thanks for tip!
oy, not he….SHE was a producer etc
That’s right, regencyg!
I’m a prosecutor…so I will have to find a way to win this case.
Pat! Sent.
Ben, you in?
ben: If the media can convince us that 60 is the new 40, that Michele is the next Jackie O, that Obama is going to save the world, that Coke is better than Pepsi, we can believe that your boss gets elected, your partner gets elected, and that you will be swinging from a chandelier in November.
Just like Russert said to Shuster, we can get together over a beer and laugh about this someday.
TM also keeps a gun in her nightstand as does her husband. Those porn flicks must have really been bad.
There was an indepth article about her in a mag that I read that had these fun facts to know and tell.
(sigh) I just don’t know….
yeah..you need my email?
Pat, I’m never going to laugh about this.
here’s a video that captures how i feel…love this song:
Will Bower’s getting full credit for PUMA. That’s a little messed up, isn’t it?
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0608/Sinclair_arrested_and_other_notes_from_the_Press_Club.html
Ben, yeah!
email: tracker400@aol.com
Particularly if he’s a hardcore McCain supporter. He’s going to make us look like a bunch of Naderites.
Ben! Sent.
i rather admired those florida nader voters who were interviewed after the 2000 election and said they wouldn’t have voted for gore anyway. just to have the luxury of not caring.
Will Bowers clarified his position within PUMA some days ago. It was posted at Blue’s Place (Camille’s blog). I don’t have the link though.
Yeah, but they gave us 8 years of Bush. I voted for Nader in 2000. My vote didn’t matter–Gore won my state anyway–but in my entire life, that’s the one vote I regret.
Support for Hillary does not equal support for McCain. The idea that he’s somehow tolerable, despite his full-throated endorsement of the Bush agenda, is horribly naive.
we may laugh about the fact that we still had faith in the system in the 21st century. do we not learn, or does hope just spring eternal?
I still haven’t gotten over Gene McCarthy……but the sting weakened a little
regencyg, apparently he isn’t clarifying his position to the MSM. PUMA is not a pro-McCain group, necessarily, and it’s Will’s responsibility to prevent the media from misportraying his beliefs as those of the entire community’s…
I just think it’s a little messed up. Just sayin’
regency: Done. I resent it.
katiebird: I know, no laughing matter, just me being snarky again.
Riverdaughter,
A new (and I think good) pro-Hillary blog for your linking pleasure (if you like). Here:
peacocks and lilies
D.C.4Hillary!! then by all means, contact PUMA. The press release has been floating around like starfish. The contact info is there. Let them know. I’m sure there are many others with similar reservations.
It is only June 17th and one of my moronic neighbors is setting off fireworks!
i can only think of one local election that was so close that my vote may have made some what of a difference. absolutely, those naderites were infuriating in 2000. look what they’ve done to us. however, i just remember wondering what it was like to be able to tank an election and not care.
regency: Did you receive it?
I didn’t vote for Nader, but have often thought about the conflict between voting one’s conscience vs voting for someone who has a chance at winning. if someone really supported Nader, is it a bad thing to vote for him?
I always seem to live in red states, so my vote never counts anyway…….
That’s not Ben’s fault that Politico misrepresents his role in its creation. I’ve seen numerous appearances and he never takes that credit, and usually has someone else appearing with him.
Ben was very, very clear on his appearances that I saw over the group not being anything but anti-Obama. He states without wiggle room that the group does not support anyone.
Thanks, Pat. I got it. You were super helpful! (I have an addiction to ‘!’s. It’s rivaling my Clinton addiction.)
regency: You are a star!
I saw an interview with Bower, he was pretty clear about what PUMA means and how each member will respond differently but none will vote obama. I didn’t get the impression that he was taking any “credit” for PUMA, just interviews. He was clear that he was voting for McCain.
I don’t blame the Naderites anymore. I essentially am one if Hillary is not the one. And I feel very little guilt about it. If my conscience tell me that I cannot vote a cipher into the nation’s highest seat of power my vote will go to the place that can keep him away from that seat. If that is McCain, so be it.
In the Naderites defense, Gore was supposed to walk away with that election. It should not have come down to Florida.
I have always voted, but this year I might not. I just can’t get enthusiastic about it, not even for a vote against (which is what I’ve usually, but not always, done)
but it’s early days…..who knows what might happen down the road?
( I still think Hillary may be the nominee )
They showed Hillary and Bill at the Russert tribute. She looked wonderful.
{{Pat}} I knew what you meant. I’m just dragging tonight. No snark in me at all.
Hey sorry, should have been in bed but just got an e intro with will bower hes a good guy and he makes the case that jsnd.com is a huge umbrella org and member blogs and organizations are all persuing their own responce to ensure obama does not walk of with the dem nomination unchallenged (isn’t this what we are all fighting for) …and his support for mccain does not represent anything but a personal choice, which he will only excersize if hillary does become our nominee. (something again we have in common) .
I am sure the guy has been living on adrenaline and caffine for the last 7 days so can we cut him some slack. The O-bots would love to see us self distruct on petty infighting. (thats what were trying to get the o-bots and DNC to do)
Riverdaughter dont you think we need to cut the who gets credit for this movement stuff…In a fight for our freedoms Ego should be the first thing out the window.
love again to you all
fuzzybeargville
regencyg (blinking)
Are you comparing Gore to Obama?
Open thread now open.
“The idea that he’s somehow tolerable, despite his full-throated endorsement of the Bush agenda, is horribly naive”
Nobody ever said he was tolerable. He’d make a wreched President. Unfortunately, it looks like we’re going to have a choose between two completely unacceptable options, both of whom would make completely wreched Presidents.
This Will guy has done everything he can to distingush his own position from PUMA. I don’t see how it can be his ‘responsibility’ to make the mainstream media behave responsibly since that would require some sort of magic wand. He’s doing the best he can considering the Oborg are trying to push this line.
KB: Ewww, no Gore isn’t Obama. I may not be a fan of his anymore, but that’s not what I was saying at all!
Madamab — thanks for reply. I was responding to Garychapelhill’s comment on the general idea of making flag-burning illegal and the problem of flag-burning being associated with people who “hate America.” Didn’t realize Hillary’s co-sponsored bill was so narrow in scope. The narrow approach does sound a bit like a mild pander to conservatives, just enough to appease but not enough to counteract the Constitution. I’m glad of that.
I’m not sure, however, that my point is defeated since I am interested in a larger issue (the issue that forced Hillary into the pander direction in the first place) of reframing the old right-wing canard about “weakness” and “lack of patriotism” thrown at the left when we try to defend the Constitution. You say the Clinton bill was “deemed Constitutional.” Being so narrow, that might be possible although I personally don’t see the difference between destroying a flag on federal property as opposed to burning the flag in other places. The symbol is damaged in both cases and, as to your main point, the act looks lousy in the media either way and the burners look like they “hate America” no matter where they are. Burning someone else’s flag is, of course, a no-no. That would be like theft, so that makes sense (BTW, do you have link to the ruling where her bill was deemed Constitutional?)
You speak of “reframing” yet you do not reframe but simply advise we be smart enough to not burn the flag. I believe your intentions are good but I can’t agree with the following statement in your post:
Flag-burning is not “burning the Constitution.” The point I am imperfectly trying to make is that if I wish to make my point by burning the flag, that is my right under the Constitution, and to limit that right is to “burn” the Constitution (although I would be willing to avoid federal property and avoid burning someone’s flag but the larger point remains). I am not being obstinate here. I am being “conservative” in the original meaning of the word, to conserve the Constitution.
This question is really too profound to hang upon a limited scope of Clinton’s bill which serves, rather, as a narrow set of asterisks under the freedom of speech clause as it relates to flag-burning. We seem to be whistling past each other, you considering the political appearance of flag-burning, I the freedom to do it as part of the freedom of speech in protest granted us by the Constitution. Instead, as I said in my comment above, I personally prefer to stick with letting flag-burning be “safe, legal and rare” and make this the political frame to say America is strong because of our Constitution and all its freedoms, including the freedom to burn the flag when the protest is important enough– and keep on trying to improve the frame rather than be intimidated rhetorically by the right into receeding away from our freedoms.
Great post, madamab. Of course, all the commentary here at The Confluence is top notch.
Obviously, Markos doesn’t do nuance, but we knew that. He failed to note that there was a flag burning amendment that was defeated Jun. 27, 2006, by one vote. Hillary voted against it and she was not a co-sponsor of S.J. Res 12.
AND there was a flag burning bill. Dick Durbin introduced that bill on the Senate floor and that Hillary and Obama voted for it. Bob Somerby put it this way:
And our Blog Boyz spread the erroneous propaganda of the “press elites” to criticize Hillary alone like good New Media lapdogs.
Selective in their spin, aren’t they?
regencyg – On your previous talk about the D.C. meeting. I don’t think it happened. Fox at first reported that Clinton hadn’t left her home. They had someone camped out there all night. Then they later said that there must be a hidden exit, then they said that their reporter had just gotten there and he didn’t know when Clinton left her home. I had heard reports on Coast to Coast AM that the illuminati had been meeting in D. C. that same night. I don’t believe in coincidences.
Thanks, Becki Jayne! Great, great points..
dissenta – You might be interested in my views on reframing “national security”.
Personally, I believe there are some symbols that are too powerful to mess with – we connect with them, as Americans, on a visceral level. The flag is one of them. The Republicans took it away from us when we weren’t paying attention, or even worse, doing silly things like insisting we should be allowed to burn it. Now we need to take it back. If we have to pass a harmless law, or put our hands over our hearts when we salute the flag, is it really betraying some grand principle?
Or are we so married to our “Republicans bad, Democrats good” ideology that we ignore when the enemy has a point?
This primary has cured me of my die-hard Party loyalty. I am looking at things in new ways now, and realizing that yes, some liberals ARE elitists and look down on other Americans. Some liberals DO appear to “hate America.” Some liberals do NOT understand the strength of words.
For example, couldn’t Obama say: “Here’s how I feel: Speak softly, but carry a big stick.” Wouldn’t that encapsulate the Democratic policy in a nutshell? Instead, he flip-flops daily on big, important issues like Iran, Jerusalem, etc. etc. etc. I mean, Obama is the most sloganeering-est Democratic candidate in many years, so clearly he shouldn’t have a problem with one more.
Anyway, thanks for your thoughts, everyone. I’m going to sleep now. Have a wonderful night!
I went over to Corrente to read Mandos’ post.
Typical ideological purist argument. It equates an amendment prohibiting flag burning with burning the Constitution itself.
Mandos oozes condescension for us “reactionary” types who don’t understand why we must defend flag burning at all costs.
I’m sorry to say Corrente was my home blog until recently. I wouldn’t drink the kool-aid, so now I’m an orphan.
BTW – I didn’t comment to the post over there, but if I had I would have pointed out that “freedom of speech” isn’t absolute, we already have restrictions on what people can say.
The cliche example is shouting “fire!” in a crowded theater.
When will these pointy-headed elites figure out that’s why they lose elections? They think the problem is with other (lesser) people, but it’s them.
You don’t win elections by alienating the majority of the voting public. The GOP says “flag-burning” and the pointy heads rush to defend it, “winning” the argument and losing the election.
Dumbasses
All alone with insomnia in the middle of the night, and my comments are moderated.
If it weren’t for bad luck . . .
2008 Draft Sen Barrick Obama For President Wfp Working Families Party Of America Natl Comm 2008
It looks like the Working Families Party supports Obama.
2008 Draft Sen Barrick Obama For President Wfp Working Families Party Of America Natl Comm 2008
It looks like the Working Families Party supports Obama.
Some Info:
The Working Families Party (WFP) is a minor political party in the United States founded in New York in 1998. The party also has a wing in Connecticut, and is working towards establishing itself in Massachusetts, Oregon and California[1].
New York’s Working Families Party was first organized in 1998 by a coalition of labor unions, ACORN and other community organizations, members of the now-inactive national New Party, and a variety of public interest groups. The party blends a culture of political organizing with unionism, 1960s idealism, and tactical pragmatism. The party’s main issue concerns are jobs, health care, education and energy/environment, and it has won notable policy gains at the city, county and state level by piggybacking on Democratic or Republican candidates.
In the 1998 election for governor of New York, the party cross-endorsed the Democratic Party candidate, Peter Vallone. Because he received more than 50,000 votes on the WFP line, the party gained an automatic ballot line for the succeeding four years. [2] In the 2002 election, the Liberal Party, running Andrew Cuomo (who had withdrawn from the Democratic primary), and the Green Party, running academic Stanley Aronowitz, failed to reach that threshold and lost the ballot lines they had previously won. This left the WFP as the only left-progressive minor party with a ballot line. This situation will continue until at least 2011 following the party’s cross-endorsement of Eliot Spitzer in the 2006 election, at which he gained more than 155,000 votes on the Working Families Party line, more than three times the required 50,000.
As of 2006, the executive director of the WFP is Dan Cantor. The party’s Co-Chairs are Sam Williams, UAW Region 9 CAP director; Bertha Lewis, ACORN’s executive director; and Bob Master of the Communications Workers of America. The WFP also has a powerful alliance with Dennis Rivera and Local 1199/SEIU (Service Employees International Union). The intensely activist union is known to contribute more than $100,000 a year of the party’s $1.4 million annual budget.
hey madam! excellent. I will be stopping by more often.
Damn, Madamab, that just hit the spot for me. Looking forward to hearing more from you. This primary has also cost me my die-hard Democratic Party loyalty. Mourning the loss of a major part of my identity for the last 26 years is incredibly PAINFUL! Guess it was time for me to look at it all differently. It was getting too comfortable to stay relatively silent about things I should have called people on. So I guess I own part of this debacle of a primary. Thanks for sharing your smarts. Just one more comment. No, I don’t think Patti-SD is a mole; now, she’s just a gopher.