Has the “states’ rights” argument become a progressive argument?

As a Democrat, I have always adhered to the notion that progressive causes in this country are better addressed at the federal level.  Especially issues that are important to me, like marriage and employment equality, universal health care, and so on.  The republicans were always the party of “states’ rights”.  Growing up in the south that was code for the state’s right to discriminate.  The “Dixiecrats” used the states’ rights argument to justify Jim Crow laws and other bigoted policies.  Even in recent times, it has been used to support such policies as banning gay marriage and employment discrimination.  But recently there seems to be more progressive reforms happening on the state level as opposed to the federal level.  It probably doesn’t hurt that we have one of the most regressive administrations in our history on the federal level.  And if Obama is elected, despite his protestations of Change, I expect things to pretty much remain status quo.

The first example we have of progressive state leadership comes in the form of gay marriage.  Massachusetts led the way when its Supreme Court legalized same-sex marriages in 2004.  Then last month New York, while not outright legalizing gay marriage, said that the state must recognize such unions performed in other states.  And yesterday California became the second state to give full marriage rights to same-sex couples.  In 2006, after a barrage of state constitutional amendments to ban same-sex marriage, Arizona became the first state to reject enshrining bigotry in their state constitution.  One of the many reasons I support Hillary Clinton for president is that she has recognized this trend, and wanted to keep the federal government from impeding states from pursuing progressive agendas.  In an earlier post I argued that this position made Hillary a much greater, and practical ally for the gay community. 

The second area where states have shown themselves to be progressive is on the health care front.  We all watched as George Bush vetoed the expansion of the S-CHIP program, effectively denying medical health coverage for hundreds of thousands of children.  States did their best to respond but unfortunately were once again blocked by the federal government.  

Today’s release of the seventh annual 50-state survey of eligibility rules, enrollment and renewal procedures, and cost-sharing practices in Medicaid and SCHIP for children and families, shows that nearly two-thirds (32) of states expanded access to their Medicaid and SCHIP programs between July 2006 and January 2008 (see Figure 1).  However, without the reauthorization of the SCHIP program and with a new federal directive restricting states from using SCHIP to cover children in families earning more than 250 percent of the federal poverty level, these state efforts could be compromised.  Twenty-three states could be affected by the directive, including 14 which have already implemented their plans and another ten which have authorized the plans into law, but not yet implemented them.  (Washington state is counted in both categories, see Figure 2 on previous page).  Three states have already cut back on their coverage.  States also continue to report that the Medicaid citizenship documentation rule is hampering efforts to simplify enrollment and resulting in delays and denials of coverage.

Despite the fact that Hillary promised universal health care for all Americans, I think her promise to allow states to pursue (and encourage the federal government to help fund) progressive agendas would also have allowed states to expand their coverage of children as opposed to the Bush administration’s attempts to stymie states efforts as well as block any federal funding.  As usual Obama’s position is vague at best.  I doubt he has the integrity, much less the experience to lead on this issue on the federal level, so at the very least I would hope he wouldn’t stand in the way of individual states who wish to insure children.   And our “dear leaders” in congress deserves as much derision for the state of affairs on this issue as Bush himself.  Pelosi and Reid and the rest of the Democratic leadership that now backs Obama did not stand up for Americans on Iraq or health care for children.  They should have just kept sending the SCHIP bill to Bush’s desk over and over and over again, even if he did veto it every time. At least they would have shown the public they have a spine.  But then again, this is the same leadership that said impeachment was “off the table”.  Not to go off on a tangent, but I think that is another reason to be depressed about an Obama candidacy, he just represents more of the same ineffective leadership the Dems have shown since retaking both houses in 2006.   His message of change is incompatible with his Dem crony’s inability (or unwillingness) to pass any meaningful progressive legislation. 

On a third (quite unexpected) front it seems that states are beginning to take action on protecting fundamental human rights.  In fact an article I saw today was the impetus for writing this post.  North Carolina is pondering the banning of torture:

A House judiciary committee is scheduled to consider a ban on torture and forced disappearances.

The plan to be discussed Tuesday would make torture a felony punishable by up to more than six years in prison.

The proposed law defines torture as both the mental or physical suffering inflicted on a person to obtain information or coerce them.

It also would make the abduction or inappropriate detention of someone a felony.

The bill’s sponsors have said they introduced the measure after hearing allegations that a Smithfield-based company helped the CIA transport suspected terrorists to secret overseas prisons.

Along with the abductions mentioned in the story, NC is also the home of the notorious Blackwater.  If the federal government is not going to stand up for human rights, I’m glad to see that members of my state government are stepping up to the plate.  I doubt that this will actually pass the full legislature, but it is more than the feds are doing.  And if a conservative state like NC can consider such a ban, I’m sure other states have or will as well. 

Despite the protestations of the “sweeties”, I think we can thrive under a McCain administration.  As I noted yesterday, CA legalized gay marriage despite having a Republican governator.  Obama’s ruthless centralization of all that he surveys is not a good omen for these progressive trends to continue.  And I don’t trust him to do the right thing on any of theses issues, not even Supreme Court Justice appointments.  Why should I expect anything more than the outright cronyism that has been a hallmark of his campaign?  So, although I know that some of you can’t stomach the thought of voting for McCain, I propose that even with a Republican president, progressive agendas can continue to grow on a state by state basis.

124 Responses

  1. Obama wanted to approve Roberts, give me a break.

  2. Hillary Supporter: Why do you come here?

  3. Obama had to be talked out of his support of Roberts. Get your facts straight!

  4. And as the post suggests, states are being much more effective than our lackadaisical congress.

  5. We are angry and out of that anger comes true reform.

  6. the abortion issue goes both ways, while some states try to restrict abortion, other states have worked hard to make sure they remain safe and readily available.

  7. We are taking steps. We are trying to do everything in our power to stop that DNC from putting an emply suit, a change’ling, a shape shifter and if that means voting for McCain, we will.

  8. But right now, Planned Parenthood can ensure that they remain safe and readily available everywhere…

  9. Delete all you want, Gary, but the Supreme Court matters. Gay marriage in California was approved by the LIBERAL SUPREME COURT, not by Arnold Schwarzenegger.

    The U.S. Supreme Court is one vote away from overturning Roe vs. Wade.

  10. Right Hill Supporter ‘08 – California got something accomplished with a Republican governor working with liberals. That’s the point. Sometimes the only way to get things done is split government – a moderate Republican working with a liberal senate could get something done.

    A Republican-light (Obama) president might be working a little too much with the Republicans and not getting enough opposition from his pals. He’s certainly not going to work for health care for all – remember – he thinks some people are just too poor to buy health care – or did you miss that debate?

  11. what is it about you obots and reading comp. if you are going to spam my post with comments, at least read it first. I said that CA realized gay marriage DESPITE a rep. gov. jeez learn to read and I may let you comment.

  12. With no leadership on the national level. What is a progressive to do? Go to the states.

    We need divided government on the national level. I do not trust these Democrats to not completely go crazy if they get control over both the legislative and executive. In my opinion it is why the abuses of 2000-2006 were so bad. The Repub congress was rubber stamping everything Bush wanted to do. Does anyone trust the same thing won’t happen if Obama is there with a Dem congress? This guy has no problem trashing our Democratic principles in his quest for power and neither do the dem leadership. He does not stand for anything, and he has shown a propensity for changing position to suit the audience.
    Divided government will provide the checks on our system that we so badly need. Besides, the Dem congress pretty much gave Bush whatever he wanted anyway. Maybe they need to learn how to say no when it is a bad policy and grow a spine when it is called for. John McCain will force them to acquire these traits, or the Dem party does not deserve to exist anymore.

  13. and hillary, they’re not one vote away, they have the votes they need RIGHT NOW. so take your talking points somewhere they might get some traction

  14. I saw the debate, of course. And I agree that a mandate is important to pass universal health care. That, along with her experience and character, are why I support Hillary.

    My point is only that John McCain is not the answer, not that Obama is somehow a great choice. We can’t afford 4 more years of Bush. We can’t afford another Alito on the Supreme Court. Let’s do what we can to push Hillary’s agenda forward, not trash it.

  15. States’ rights is neither progressive nor reactionary as an abstract argument. Depending on the issue and the political landscape, it can be either, neither, or both. It’s so bound up with slavery and the aftermath of slavery that we have internalized it as a reactionary cause, but that was historical happenstance.

    The only case I can think of for some *inherent* reactionary content to states’ rights is a relative case: the defense of the most fundamental human rights makes reference to the universal rather than the particular, and since the federal level is as close as we get to the universal (so long as UN conventions and “natural law” don’t have much traction in our political discourse–and the latter is often used to reactionary ends), you could say it’s inherently more important to progressives. In other words, if gay marriage or the prohibition of torture are so fundamental, what are they doing in the hands of a state legislature?

    but that argument can be stood on its head: when you take these fraught issues down to the state level (or even lower), they tend to lose their cosmic-struggle baggage, and people can be more commonsensical and humane about them. There’s something about a state permitting gay marriage that may be more palatable to the mildly-hostile than an Olympian federal pronouncement, either legislative or judicial. Likewise, if the Congress were to say “no torture,” it would be a contentious message against Bush’s post-9/11 policies generally…but when the NC Legislature says it, people treat it like a no-brainer.

  16. Roe V Wade will NEVER be overturned. The Republicans know that as soon as that happen the %70 of people that want choice will revolt. They want RVW because it allows them to pander to their base.

    “Roe is a Red Herring”, prolix(I think)

  17. NO POST-CLINTON BOUNCE FOR OBAMA

    http://www.abcnews.go.com/PollingUnit/Vote2008/story?id=5177916&page=1

    (and too many think his resume is too thin)

  18. And who in the heck knows who O would put on the court? Twenty years in that evangelical church makes me nervous.

  19. Mawm, I hope you’re right. But I think Scalia, Roberts, Alito, and Thomas would be happy to overturn Roe. They have lifetime appointments, and a revolt isn’t going to hurt them any.

  20. Rich, it is because the federal government, be it the exec. under bush, or the leg. under the dems has abdicated its responsibilites on these issues. it is therefore falling to the individual states to look out for the best interest of their citizens.

  21. If for some reason they did overturn it, we would see countless women protesting. Young women and older women would be united in their outrage. At this point Obama has strategically divided the young women from the older ones. I would love to see them re-united. I would hate it to be over Roe, but if it were, woman O woman, we would see the tide change.

  22. Hillary Supporter 2008:
    Anyone, but anyone is better than Obama; you are wasting your breath to try and support him; do your homework and use your brains and not your emotions and you must agree.

  23. Mawn:

    You are absolutely right.

    I have been telling the Obama people that they need something else to scare reluctant Dems with something else, not Roe v Wade.

    On the SCOTUS, only 2 justices were appointed by a Dem POTUS (check me on that), throughout the country the vast majority of judges were appointed by Republican POTUS. Don’t forget that Rep have had the WH for 28 out of the last 40 years.

  24. McCain is not going to put an Alito on the court. And McCain and Obama are probably both open to a Roberts-type on the court. Obama has made no secret he’s pro-business.

  25. I’ll say it again: progressive blogosphere 2.0 needs to better define what they stand for. PB1.0 was spawned as a reaction to Gingrich/Bush and needed a bogeyman to remain relevant. In the absence of Bush, PB1.0 turned on Hillary for whatever reason. PB2.0 seems to me to have been spawned as a reaction to how the primary was handled.

    The PB1.0 – PB2.0 split was probably good–it showed where loyalties and principles were–but PB2.0 needs to be better defined than PB1.0. The “states right’s” argument should be addressed more fully in PB2.0. I’m not sure its the way to go. Its too reactionary.

  26. We will be forced to back McCain if Senator Clinton does not become the nominee. I will never vote for such diabolically evil, dark persons as Obama and Bitterilla.

    I have no white guilt, and will not accept the punishment.

    McCain may need to be persuaded to move to the center, but I do not think at his core he is evil and unwilling and unable to play fair.

  27. States’ rights is code wording in the western states for raping public lands for private profit. It is code for shooting wolves from helicopters, drilling for oil and gas in Yellowstone, converting national forests to pulpwood farms for the biodiesel industry and clearcutting what is left, destroying the last salmon runs so agribusiness has cheap irrigation water, etc. And McCain isn’t likely to work against any of those things. Coupled with his delay, not cancellation of that fundraiser in Texas (showing exactly how much concern he really has for women), and his feelings for 100 year wars in Iraq, there is no way I can vote for McCain either. Ever.

  28. Thank you, I was waiting for you guys.

  29. FYI – The Republicans will never overturn Roe v. Wade. It’s their main recruiting tool.

    What they do, and have been doing, is to allow the erosion of abortion rights everywhere. Luckily, Hillary and Patty Murray made sure that RU-486 is available without a prescription for women 18 and over.

    I don’t trust Obama or McCain on womens’ rights, but neither one will get Roe v. Wade overturned.

  30. My vote for president cannot be reduced to whether or not someone gets to pick a supreme or not. Give me a break. There are a lot of other issues in the world. It is funny to me that that is all the Oborg can come up with is SCOTUS, SCOTUS, SCOTUS.

    Where was your outrage when the Dem congress approved Alito?

    Do you remember Bork? Probably not. The Dem senate said NO to him, and Reagan then nominated Anthony Kennedy. Kennedy has voted our way many times now on things such as striking down sodomy laws and now to upholding habeus. The Dem congress approved Alito. So, do not tell me that we have to have Obama in order to keep the court with moderate judges. What we need is a senate with a SPINE.

  31. McCain is winning the battle for independents, from WaPo:

    ——-
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/16/AR2008061602690.html?hpid=topnews

  32. Mawm – you are just wonderful. I’m sure you hear that all the time, but really, I just love your comments!

  33. Poll numbers on losers who support OBAMA IN MASSACHUSSETS –

    Last week’s Suffolk Poll:

    Those who voted for Clinton in the MA primary were asked about voting for Obama in November:

    54% YES
    20% NO
    26% UNDECIDED

    Here’s the John “Do Nothing Gigolo” Kerry question. “Should John Kerry be re-elected, or is it time to give someone else a chance?”

    38% DESERVES REELECTION
    51% GIVE SOMEONE ELSE A CHANCE
    9% UNDECIDED

    Here’s the Deval “MiniMe” Patric question.

    “Does Deval Patrick deserve a second term, or is it time to give someone else a chance?”

    39% DESERVES REELECTION
    41% GIVE SOMEONE ELSE A CHANCE
    20% UNDECIDED

  34. gq–that’s why I posed it as a question. I think it should be discussed. I think we have seem the complete collapse of our Fed govt to address the concerns of its citizens. States have been filling the vacuum on many progressive issues. but I agree with you, it may be reactionary, but worth discussing

  35. Danger Signs’ as Clinton Supporters Resist Obama
    Democratic Candidate Leads but Still Struggles to Win Over Key Groups
    http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/Vote2008/story?id=5183218&page=1

  36. eliot how do either of your two points relate? I don’t see the feds doing anything to protect those lands. if anything you need to go back to bill clinton who tried to protect all of that land by making them national forests and wildlife refuges. it has been the FEDERAL govt under bushwho has destroyed all that

  37. gqmartinez, I believe we need multi-prong strategies. We need to fight at both the state and fed level, but also through the courts and through the legislature. We need to get laws passed, because that is really where people have the confidence that there is public support behind something. Sometimes there is not public support, or for other reasons a law cannot be passed, so then we fight at the court level. Too many of these victories, however, have been won at the court level. It has become a bone of contention will conservatives, because they see it as the court overturning the will of the people. You and I both know that sometimes the will of the people is not just, and that is what the court is for. However, I still think we need to put more effort into grass-roots initiatives that result in legislation being passed. This will balance out the progressive victories, and make it harder for legislators to come back and write new regressive laws that the courts will find harder to overturn.

    In the end, I think it all really comes down to us, we the people, staying vigilant and demanding representation.

  38. Elliot Lake, stop spreading that 100 years war in Iraq smear. You know that was predicated on their being peace. Stop being a propagandist.

  39. June 15, 2008

    Schumer, Clinton, Higgins to Introduce a Resolution Naming Highway Near Ralph Wilson Stadium in Honor of Buffalo Native Tim Russert

    http://www.clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=299195&&

  40. June 13, 2008

    Statement of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton and Former President William Jefferson Clinton on the Death of Tim Russert

    “We were stunned and deeply saddened to hear of the passing today of Tim Russert. Our thoughts and prayers are with his wife Maureen, his son Luke, his father who we all have come to know as Big Russ, his extended family and all of his many friends and colleagues at NBC who have suffered a tremendous loss. Always true to his proud Buffalo roots, Tim had a love of public service and a dedication to journalism that rightfully earned him the respect and admiration of not only his colleagues but also those of us who had the privilege to go toe to toe with him. In seeking answers to tough questions, he helped inform the American people and make our democracy stronger. We join his friends, fans and loved ones in mourning his loss and celebrating his remarkable contribution to our nation.”

    http://www.clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=299184&&

  41. Hillary Rodham Clinton

    During the 1992 presidential campaign, Hillary Rodham Clinton observed, “Our lives are a mixture of different roles. Most of us are doing the best we can to find whatever the right balance is . . . For me, that balance is family, work, and service.”
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/firstladies/hc42.html

  42. gary – Thank you for your fine comment. You make some important points, things I have overlooked in thinking about how to vote.

    I agree with you. I’m voting for McCain. Obama and his NeoLiberal honchos want to centralize everything. The idea that voters can understand how government works must astound them.

    They can’t scare me or guilt me into voting for whomever I chose.

  43. http://www.johnmccain.com/mccainreport/Read.aspx?guid=2c1bda37-7b36-42a5-b469-b24d7f2448c3

    Obama Crowd Boos Clinton

    Last night at an Obama rally in Detroit, Michigan Governor Jennifer Granholm, who had previously endorsed Senator Clinton, took to the stage to show her solidarity with Barack Obama now that the voters (or the party insiders as the case may be) have handed him the nomination. But Granholm, like Team McCain, still seems to hold Senator Clinton in high esteem–she tried to praise the former first lady as a “great American.”

    She couldn’t even get the words out before the crowd turned on her and began booing. Here’s the tape, watch it for yourself. We just want to assure Senator Clinton’s supporters that their attendance at McCain rallies will be warmly recieved, by Senator McCain and his supporters. Of course, if Senator Clinton wants to show up to any of our events in person…consider this an open invitation.

  44. faye HA! I would be suprised if she took you up on your offer, but mighty gracious of you

  45. California’s State Supreme Court isn’t liberal.

    It’s very conservative and most or all of the justices were appointed by GOP governors.

  46. SONIA, I read the ABC article. This stood out to me

    In an exclusive network interview with ABC News, Obama said that his long Democratic primary battle with Clinton, which wasn’t settled until early June, spared McCain critical scrutiny.

    “While we were doing that, John McCain basically was getting a pass, both from the media . . . as well as from other opponents. And so I think that explains it,” said Obama of the close race.

    Can this guy EVER take responsibility for himself? He is exactly like George Bush. If Hillary Clinton were the nominee now, her numbers would be soaring. She ran a great campaign. He ran a sleazy campaign, and now he is irritated that people don’t want to vote for him. So, what does he do?

    Blame Clinton!

  47. off topic, but…
    Just got mail from the Obama campaign. So I wrote a check for $100, tore it in half, and am sending it along with this message…

    Dear Senator Obama
    On behalf of my friends in Florida, please find half a check for $100. Since your campaign saiid their votes should only count as half votes, I figure you’ll know what to do with half a check.
    But, in case you need a hint – the RBC corruptly ensured your nomination while violating the DNC charter “sunshine” povisiions for meetings. In that spirit, you can take my half-check, and put it ‘where the sun don’t shine’.

  48. See, Obama-bots? Faye is a McCain version of you. Got a female name and everything.

    Faye is much, MUCH more effective than you are because “she” [gasp!] REACHES OUT TO US AND ACKNOWLEDGES THAT MCCAIN NEEDS US TO WIN.

    You Obama-bots should take a page from “her” book. But you won’t, because you’re immature, selfish thugs, just like your Dear Leader.

  49. paul–awesome. I haven’t gotten anything from them yet…I’ll bet they already have me on some blacklist somewhere he he….

  50. Who talked BO out of his support for Roberts?

  51. http://www.pumaparty.com/nohillaryvp/lets-ask-hillary-not-to-accept-vp/

    Let’s ask Hillary NOT to accept VP
    HIllary has a great career in the Senate, and if Obama loses, she can run for President in 2012.

    If she is Obama’s VP and he wins, then she is stuck for 8 eight years in a secondary, power-less position — and by the time she got free she would be 68.

    Don’t let her sacrifice herself this way!

  52. madamab, sometimes is seems like we are running an elementary school. It is hillaryous that you have to even write that.

  53. faye, if by some strange cosmic mishap Obama were to be elected, he would definitely be a one-termer…..

  54. Mawm, on June 17th, 2008 at 1:34 pm Said:
    SONIA, I read the ABC article. This stood out to me

    YUP –

    Put everyone under the bus —only michelle left by now .

  55. Be afraid, very very very afraid!

    Obama is acomplete and total wack job!

    http://paganpower.wordpress.com/2008/06/17/obama-and-the-parables-of-pooh/

  56. madamab,
    ME??

    AN OBAMABOT??

    pls call me a moron – or even a biatch but not an obamabot –thats the worst -

    u know what obamabot means ??someone hardly 18 yr old brain who does not search and believs in 57 states and has jedi effect on him /her .

    I am a proud american and proud P.U.M.A. dem now ,for whom country pride and safety of my kids come first and then party loyalty –

    So –r u obamabot ??

    sure act like it –

  57. madamab: I think Faye has an easier road since McCain and his supporters are generous in praising Hillary where obama and his followers can’t quite get that far.

    It wouldn’t matter to me if they were spreading honey praise of Hillary now – obama would still have a legitimacy problem. After the convention when the nominee is secure and locked in, I think we will see super fond memories of Hillary and great promises made to move her supporters from PUMA camp.

  58. faye, I think she was trying to tell obots that they should take their cue on how to act from you, because you were so gracious. she wasn’t calling you one

  59. faye, I don’t think she was calling you an Obamabot. I think she was complimenting you on your politeness, and warmth.

  60. Lets make a bumper sticker -which should read

    “For the first time in my adult life , Iam ashamed to be part of our democrat party “`

  61. UPPS—

    SORRY

    i apologixe to everyone here .

  62. did anybody read that post at corrente that was trying to connect PUMAS with the GOP. they cited an article that said Clintonsformccain.com was registered by the GOP. I thought it was a pretty lame attempt to paint us as republicans. what’s going on over there? I understand if they want to vote obama, but are they going to join the smear campaign?

  63. Thank you for your interesting post. As a red state (Georgia) resident, I can’t see much reason to pin any hope on progressive changes occurring as a result of state legislatures. And as the gay marriage rulings in Massachusetts and California reflect, the changes are coming about as a result of judicial rulings applying state constitutions. That is one of the reasons why the Repugs have been targeting judges in elections. (A good source of information regarding the attack on an independent judiciary is http://www.justiceatstake.org.)
    In regard to SCOTUS, my concern is less Roe v. Wade and more the type of cases exemplified by Boumediene v. Bush, a 5-4 decision that recognized the right of the Guantanamo detainees to petition civil courts for habeas corpus relief. The dissenters were the usual suspects, Roberts, Alito, Scalia and Thomas. If another conservative is added, then Justice Kennedy will no longer be the swing vote in such matters.
    Given McCain’s statements about the type of candidates he would name for any opening on the SCOTUS, yes, I am very concerned about him occupying the WH. But that doesn’t mean we should elect Obama instead. IMO, the best way to respond to the “vote Obama because of SCOTUS” argument is to stress that a President McCain can only nominate a candidate: it’s within the power of the Democratic-controlled Senate to reject anyone who has an Alito-esque judicial philosophy.

  64. There are so many smart posts by the moderators of this site, but this is one of the smartest yet. I have been thinking about exactly this subject recently. I’m no historian, but I believe that it has only been since World War II and FDR that progressive policies were associated with a Democratic Party that was opposed to “states rights.” This trend was obviously exacerbated during the civil rights era. But for much of American history it was the states righters and the republicans who were the progressives. Think John Adams versus Thomas Jefferson (Jefferson was the progressive and Adamas supported the Bush-like Alien and Sedition Acts). Think Abraham Lincoln versus Stephen A. Douglas (Lincoln, the progressive was a republican). Think Teddy Roosevelt, the trust buster and environmentalist. He was an imperialist, yes. But his domestic policy favored states rights and he was a republican.

    I think Obama is a wolf in sheeps clothing. He’s no progressive, and if he wins, I don’t think he will govern like one. Ironically, it might take an Obama victory to break the allegience between the Republican Party and religious evangelicals. If this happens, I expect the republicans to return to their progressive roots (yes it will take time) and the Democrats to move to the right.

  65. madamab,

    I am sorry .I overeacted -pls gorgive me .But i am a hillary supporter and puma dem ,

  66. I think it is time that we make it crystal clear (is there any other kind) to the DNC, Dean, Pelosi, Obama that it is more important now to take down the Democrat Party and those that participated in this coup than any other agenda.

    We need a sign up sheet to be delivered to the characters involved.

  67. I too will sadly, reluctantly, vote for McCain.

    I believe that a vote for Obama will help complete the take over of the Democratic Party that they have begun. With an Obama administration they will have a chance to gut and corrupt the Democratic Party as Bush/Cheney did to the Republican Party.

    My state, Wisconsin, could go either way. I must vote for McCain to try and defeat the one I consider the greater evil, Obama.

    Plus it is necessary to smack down the corrupt DNC and the even more corrupt Democratic Leadership. Staying home is not an option for me. Leaving the top of the ticket blank will not do the trick either IMHO.

    However that’s in my state. People living in solid red or blue states will most likely see things differently.

  68. plukasiak, on June 17th, 2008 at 1:34 pm Said:

    off topic, but…
    Just got mail from the Obama campaign. So I wrote a check for $100, tore it in half, and am sending it along with this message…

    Paul, that is the funniest and most creative thing I’ve seen! Hahaha! Thanks for the laugh out loud moment!

    BTW, I do enjoy your writing.

  69. I would worry that the Obama people would try to tape that check back into one piece and cash it. It would be just like them

  70. fliedermaus, exactly. But remember that Kennedy and Souter were both Repub appointments, and the Dem congress approved Alito. I wish everyone would stop being simplistic about D is good R is bad. Why did D approve Alito? In my opinion, they were either spineless or corrupt.

    Why did Regan and Bush nominate Kennedy, or Souter? In my opinion, the Bork rejection forced Reagan to come to the center in nominating Kennedy, and Souter got nominated because the Bush Sr. administration was afraid of pissing off Dems and going through another Bork.

    The Dem Senate has acutally done the most damage to the SCOTUS because they have NOT stood up on principle, and now everyone has forgotten Bork, and so they feel free to nominate whoever they please. The Dems don’t have any teeth on this one anymore, and everyone knows it. No spine is heard many times a day up and down the corridors of Capitol hill nowadays.

  71. The Obamabots are deflating the value of words. A year ago if anyone called me “r@c**t” I would have been upset. Now “rac**tt” has almost no meaning.

    Last year, if anybody said “You aren’t a real Democrat,” I would have been upset. Now, “Democrat” has not meaning.

    Other pavlovian words that have lost the power to shock and awe me:
    Pro-war!
    Republican!
    Roe v. Wade.

  72. No problem faye. It is easy to misread when you are quickly skimming so many posts.

    Mawm: LOL! I know, it is elementary psychology that you get more flies with honey than vinegar. The O-bots got nothin’ but vinegar.

    I would like to make a comment about the blogosphere 2.0: I think it should be all about revitalizing democracy, using FDR’s New Deal Principles, the Constitution, and the concepts of Truth, Justice and the American Way.

    Obama represents Tammany Hall, Chicago-style. Should he be elected, it will represent the triumph of corruption over the will of the people – just like the selection of George W. Bush in 2000. This is why so many of us PUMAs will not support him and why there is so much opposition to him WITHIN the Democratic Party.

    I believe that states have taken many leaps forward in the absolute vacuum of federal leadership presented by the Deciderer-in-Chief. However, states’ rights, to me, is a loser. Let’s take our OWN language back – make “liberal” a positive instead of a negative – before trying to co-opt theirs.

    My 9,000,000 cents as usual. :-)

  73. did anybody read that post at corrente that was trying to connect PUMAS with the GOP. they cited an article that said Clintonsformccain.com was registered by the GOP. I thought it was a pretty lame attempt to paint us as republicans. what’s going on over there? I understand if they want to vote obama, but are they going to join the smear campaign?

    I’m beginning to regret my previous defense of Corrente.

    Xan is obviously an Obama campaign ‘ratf*cker’ — someone deliberately spreading lies and disinformation on behalf of the Obama campaign.

    VastLeft is trying to steal the PUMA concept — claiming that whining about the party makes him a PUMA, even though he’s declared he’s voting for Obama. I keep telling him that the ONE think that all REAL PUMA’S agree on is that we WILL NOT SUPPORT OBAMA… but he persists in lying about his “PUMA” status.

    (I told him he should just call himself Britney Spears, because its as true as calling himself a “PUMA”)

    There are still some good people there…just as TalkLeft still has some good people, but the Oborg are taking over both sites… ;(

  74. Souter was recommended by John Sununu and was thought to be a reliable conservative.

    A good example of a Justice not conforming to expectations.

  75. “No spine” implies that they want to stand up to Bush but are too weak or scared.

    They have spines, as evidenced by the way they rigged this election.

    The problem is they are corrupt.

  76. States rights is clearly a good argument for progressive legislation becuase it protects states that choose to enact things like marriage equality from having federal intervention overturn such legislation. It’s not just marriage equality. If California, for example, enacts emmissions laws it will change the way in which automobiles are fueled country wide because the CA market is so big.

  77. I agree with gqmartinez. It’s im,portant that netroots 2.0 does not merely become the echo chamber netroots 1.0 became.

  78. I would worry that the Obama people would try to tape that check back into one piece and cash it. It would be just like them

    not to worry. I only sent them half a check….the part where I wrote in “One Hundred and 00/100 “, but not the part with my signature…;)

  79. June 9, 2008 by annabellep – This covers the fear mongering we are receiving re: Roe vs. Wade – Part ONE and there is a part two .. afraid to post that as it might end up in the spam filter

    The Specter of Roe vs. Wade, Part I

    http://annabellep.wordpress.com/2008/06/09/the-specter-of-roe-vs-wade-part-i/

  80. plukasiak, I disagree. I think one can vote for Obama and still be PUMA. To me, that these voters are skeptic of Obama is important. They don’t buy the unity premise. They simply can not vote for McCain. Again, we don’t want to be an echo chamber where everyone has to conform to the same set ideas.

  81. June 11, 2008 by annabellep – The Specter of Roe v Wade Part II: NARAL

    http://annabellep.wordpress.com/2008/06/11/the-specter-of-roe-v-wade-part-ii-naral/

  82. Mawm, I agree completely that the D Senate is responsible for Alito. Considering how the Chamber of Commerce is targeting judges throughout the country, maybe that’s the source of corruption, in which case it wouldn’t matter if the new POTUS is McCain or Obama. But if it’s spinelessness, what is the reason for their lack of spine? It’s unfathomable to me.

  83. Melanie:

    I vehemently disagree . . .voting for Obama is out of the question.

  84. fliedermaus:

    But if it’s spinelessness, what is the reason for their lack of spine? It’s unfathomable to me.

    What do you think Bush uses that warrantless wiretapping for? It’s certainly not to catch terrorists, since it was in place BEFORE 9/11.

    I call it the “Democrat Surveillance Program.”

  85. Melanie:

    As soon as you say you will vote for Obama – they win.

    As long as they know you will cave in or can be bought off with empty promises, nothing will change.

    They aren’t worried about our money, and they DON’T want us in their organization.

    They just want our votes.

  86. If a dem majority in the senate cannot block any scotus – then – we gotta a problem ..

    they could have done it before .. but they just don’t .

    they cave . We will see what happens this week on the telecom immunity bill . Will Harry Reid sen. majority leader and – Obama the Leader of the Dem party give any sort of a pass to the telecoms for working in collusion with a corrupt governments policy of spying on Americans .. ??

    we have to see what the compromise will be .

  87. Melanie, what has Obama done to get your vote? NOTHING. Giving it to him because of fear sounds like a Bush tactic.

  88. Well, I agree, and I won’t vote for Obama. But, I think a few skeptics who will but are not part of the Obama echo chamber is better than those who will and are part of the Obama echo chamber.

  89. Thank you, garychapelhill, this is indeed food for thought. I come from a southern family and will not vote for McCain or Obama but I appreciate your insights.

  90. Mawn, I’m not voting for Obama.

  91. madamab:

    If Bush is doing that (and I suspect you are right) then no way is he turning over the keys to a Democrat.

    They would never surrender that kind of power, and they would be terrified of investigations in a new Dem administration.

    Of course, that would explain why the Dem leadership is so committed to Obama – he’s being set up to lose.

  92. The only power I have is my vote. I will never vote for Obama. I will not budge from this position. I will vote for McCain.

    Show no signs of weakness. PUMA up.

  93. myiq2xu , exactly , why bother with PUMA if you are going to ‘obey’ … remember tweety’s , sweetie talk about Hillary .. ?? .. “but, would she ‘obey’ ..

    Sorry , I am not into obeying , not now , not ever . Cooperation yes, obeying NO.

  94. Thanks for the post- I have been thinking along the same lines- more activism at the local level- then feed up.
    I certainly don’t have the $$$ to make myself heard at the federal level (and it seems that is all that the DNC cares about) I can however, continue to interact at the local level and have some influence there.
    A house built on a solid foundation no?
    I wonder if the little old lady who asked me to become a precint leader had any idea this was how things would turn out? I live in a very red NW PA county- and we registered huge numbers of Dems this primary season. Hillary kicked a** here. I worked the polls and had numerous Republican women pull me aside and tell me they couldn’t wait to vote for Hillary in Nov.
    No way am I going to campaign or vote for BO. I have a very desirable location for yard signs with 500 ft of frontage on the main road through the county. Always have allowed the Dems to put signs up, not this time. If they supported Hillary, the campaign can have a sign in my yard. If BO- find another spot. I know who supported Hillary- and every one of those candidates made it through the primaries. (Phil English’s seat is up btw- we got a good one running against him) First question when they call for permission to post in my yard will be “Are you voting BO?” The answer will determine whether they get space.
    Personally, all signs will have to take second place to my personal one. If the bus goes over the cliff, I will have an 8×10! haven’t decided the wording yet- any ideas? I am definitely NOT voting Obama.
    How about PUMAcrat not voting for Obama?

  95. paul, thanks for the update on corrente. there really are a lot of good people over there. I thought that post was a big pile of s#%# though. very badly researched and inflammatory. the wingnutosphere would be proud. :(

  96. Briana,
    Dodd wrote me an email back at the start of the campagin saying he was going to fillibuster telecom immunity. I said to myself “Great”, so I gave his campaign $100.
    When the vote for telecom immunity came up, what did Dodd do? NOTHING. The amendment passed. Later the bill did not pass, but Dodd completely went against what he said he was going to do.
    When I later got a fundraising email from him about retiring his debt, I let him know what I thought of him and his empty promises.

  97. madamab:

    “What do you think Bush uses that warrantless wiretapping for? It’s certainly not to catch terrorists, since it was in place BEFORE 9/11.

    I call it the “Democrat Surveillance Program.””

    Any hard facts to back up your suspicions? I enjoy conspiracy theories as much as the next person, but I have difficulty believing Bush is blackmailing enough D Senators to get his candidates approved. I’d guess bribes would be more likely — but have no facts at all to support my guess.

  98. ProudMilitaryMom, I still have my Hillary yard sign up. I can’t wait to get my McCain sign and put it up right next to it.
    I want to make a PUMA sign too that will sort of complete a visual triangle.

  99. “As I noted yesterday, CA legalized gay marriage despite having a Republican governator.”

    We have a humungous Dem majority legislature though, and we make him do our Democratic bidding.

    It wasn’t easy – The Gropenator even held a special election to try and foist all kinds of Republican crap on us and nurses and teachers unions fought back with effective ad campaigns, and won. He is much more amenable to reason now.

    I would not assume he was some kind of Democrat with Democratic values without that clout we have.

  100. fliedermaus,

    None of us know, but isn’t that the problem? We really have no idea what they are listening to.

    Do you remember the dust up over some contractors checking out the candidates passport files?

    With so much power to tap people’s phones, the level of secrecy, and no real oversight, I can’t imagine that the program hasn’t been corrupted.

  101. Melanie,

    Why would an Obama supporter frequent this blog if not to win over new supporters? I don’t think this blog was created for that purpose (maybe I’m wrong).

  102. dotcom—I guess I need to reread, but everyone seems to miss my point. I’m not saying that he is part of the reason gay marriage was legalized. My point is that it got done IN SPITE OF him. If that can happen all of the wailing and moaning about a McCain presidency is a little overboard. And your point that he had to move to the right to accomodate his constiuents and legilature provides more evidence that McCain can be prodded to the left by a dem. congress (assuming they have the will to stand up to him, which is kind of iffy)

  103. Yes Paul – I read that whole post this morn. with all the comments.. YOU did good ..!! – .. darn .. nothing like using nothing .. to insinuate
    ‘Nothing’ – as something .. when all of it is an unsubstantiated insinuation… !

    That poster needs to read the Daily Howler .

  104. fliedermaus – I have no facts at all, just a tinfoil hat, Occam’s razor and a sense of history.

    Remember, Cheney came to political “maturity” under Nixon. What did Nixon use wiretapping to do?

    Also, it’s very, very clear that the warrantless wiretapping has nothing WHATSOEVER to do with terrorism. Many counterterrorism experts have pronounced it utterly ineffective, and it’s clearly unconstitutional. The scope is ridiculously broad, and besides, even if it somehow found actionable information, Bush has made sure to farm out the experienced intelligence agents (like Valerie Plame and Sibel Edmonds) and replace them with know-nothings from Liberty University.

    This clearly makes no sense from a “national security” standpoint. What are they hiding? Why can’t they go to FISA? Why do they need all this information?

    And myiq2xu – George W. is tired of being Presnit. He’s ready to retire to his thousands of acres in Paraguay. As for the Democrats, I believe they absolutely know that Obama is a loser. It’s worth it to them to oust the Clintons and to get a veto-proof majority. They figure that their power increases either with Obama or with McCain. It’s a win-win. The only way they get a strong executive who would actually make them DO STUFF…is with Hillary.

  105. in my previous comment:: by “move to the right” I meant “move to the left”…..

  106. Thank you, garyc

    I get it and your post is appreciated alot. I just got back from OR and I’m depressed about the stupidity there.

    Sorry, if anyone is from there.

  107. Mawm – Good for YOU .. ! .. if he was decent he would send you your money back .. LoL .. :)

  108. I am now wearing my Button depicting “I am a racist” proudly on my blouse – not that anyone could see it – it is so dark and cramped under this bus!

  109. Pragmatist, oh, I agree. This is no place for Obama pushing. I must have missed something.

  110. This shows how out of touch or what lying asses the Obama camp is – take your choice!

    http://election.newsmax.com/moveon_alex.html?s=al&promo_code=6470-1

  111. I thought the whole point of being PUMA was a refusal to get in line. A rejection of an illegitimate candidate, whatever form that rejection takes- voting McCain or not voting. PUMA light would apply those who fall in line and vote for him in the end. Or better yet- PUNKS

  112. Nice post, Gary. You offer a lot of good food for thought regarding pushing a more progressive agenda through states. I’m reminded of Oregon’s Right to Die law, which could never have been enacted at the Federal level. In fact, Republicans nationwide – not just here – have been trying to figure out a way to get it thrown out ever since it was enacted. And now I recently heard that Washington State is considering a similar law.

    I do think there is promise in working for progressive goals at the state level. These kinds of laws allow the rest of the country to actually see the results of the laws before they are enacted on a more widespread basis. Oregon’s Right to Die law has certainly not created mass genocide of senior citizens as the demogogues will tell you. In fact, it has only been made use of in a small number of cases. I predict that the legalization of gay marriage in California and Massachussetts is only going to spread as other states discover that God really isn’t going to do a Sodom and Gommorrah act of retribution on them.

  113. plukasiak, I disagree. I think one can vote for Obama and still be PUMA. To me, that these voters are skeptic of Obama is important. They don’t buy the unity premise. They simply can not vote for McCain. Again, we don’t want to be an echo chamber where everyone has to conform to the same set ideas.

    Sorry…. they can call themselves something else (anyone got some words that would make “LEMMING” an acronym for them? ;) ) but not PUMAs.

    If they want to say “I won’t vote for Obama unless he does X, Y and Z”, MAYBE they can call themselves PUMAs — until they get what they want/settle for what they are offered, and say they’re voting for Obama.

    But the minute you say you’re voting for Obama, you’re not a PUMA.

    of course, that’s just my opinion ;)

  114. “If they want to say “I won’t vote for Obama unless he does X, Y and Z”, MAYBE they can call themselves PUMAs — until they get what they want/settle for what they are offered, and say they’re voting for Obama.”

    Ok, that’s fair.

  115. Paul, did you see that I quoted a couple of your comments in my current post?

  116. Extra! Extra! Pumapac flyers are here http://pumapacusa.org/fliers/fliers.html

  117. Gary and Mawm: Hie thee to CA so you can get hitched!

    Saw in a Yahoo article that there is an initiative coming up on the ballot to overturn the S.C. ruling.

  118. You know this is a really interesting argument that I have not thought of before. The CA example makes one thing clear; a conservative administration does not make state progression impossible.

    In the long run I think they tend to move the overall legal structure to the right (court appointments, etc…) but I had this thought today: if the rest of the country sees people being married in CA, then will it soften people’s feelings about the issue, and/or will they just stop caring much at all? I really hope it goes even a step further and switches people into the “pro-rights” column; it certainly seems possible.

    On a very related note, this NYTimes article examines the “MA Model” which establishes universal healthcare in the state. I’m pretty sure a few people here are from MA so maybe they can provide further insight on the “MA Model.”

  119. I believe the CA court overturned the previous vote just to get the issue on the ballot for Nov. They know this will get a strong conservative turnout in Nov. which will help McCain. I’m all for CA going for McCain in the GE, but that is why a conservative appointed court did this.

  120. Sorry, but I am so tired that I can’t read everything here, so, after just scanning the whole column, I am not sure that what I’m going to add was not spoken of earlier.

    I have a fear, after looking at Eastern Europe and the chaos there after the Soviet Union fell apart, of a lack of unity being a means of creating problems. It seems far-fetched that this could ever happen here, but imagine states ruling on their own, without a solid, strong ruling government. It could become chaotic, sort of like small kingdoms all over Europe in the Middle Ages. Little wars, competitions, alienations. Perfect for keeping the peasants under strict control.

    Oy, maybe my exhausting day is creating neurotic fantasies. Good night.

  121. To: garychapelhil

    Excellent post. Insightful analysis that I have noticed yet wasn’t giving it any serious thought or merit.

    Thanks

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