Back when the primary was in full swing, I wrote a post contending that Hillary was the better candidate when it came to LGBT issues such as marriage and gays in the military. Obama supporters who commented, and those I know in “real-life” always responded with sentiments such as “but Clinton got us into the ‘don’t ask don’t tell’ mess in the first place”. First of all this is not true. Bill Clinton wanted there to be no ban whatsoever on gays serving in the military. After all, we have been serving proudly (if not openly) in just about every conflict and every branch of the military since the birth of this nation. Of course the GOP was adamantly opposed to overturning the ban on gays in the military. But Clinton had a Democratic majority to work with in congress, so you would think he could have easily passed this reform, which he had campaigned on before being elected President. Like so many other aspects of the Clinton Presidency, the Obots prefer revisionist history to reality. They claim that Clinton is to blame for the policy we have now, “don’t ask, don’t tell”. While he did eventually sign the compromise into law, it was Democrats in congress who blocked an outright ban.
Congressional opposition to lifting the ban on gay and bisexual people in the armed forces was led by Democrat Sam Nunn of Georgia who organized Congressional hearings that largely buffed the armed forces position that has remained unchanged since the 1981 directive.
After backlash from members of his own party, Clinton agreed to a compromise. While not perfect, the compromise did seem to open a pathway for gays and lesbians to serve legally in the military:
The final result was a Congressional compromise of “Don’t ask, don’t tell” that was later amended to include “don’t harass”. Officially, the compromise dictates that the armed forces will no longer ask recruits about their sexual activity and/or orientation, will not investigate any serviceman or servicewoman’s sexual activity and/or orientation without solid evidence (thus preventing witch-hunts), and self-identified homosexual servicemen and women agree that they will not engage in homosexual sex acts, or do anything that announces that they are a homosexual, i.e. public statements or participate in a same-sex marriage openly.
Once the Republicans regained control of the government this policy was perverted to indeed serve as the basis for witch-hunts to purge gay/lesbian service members, but that was clearly not Clinton’s intention, and in my opinion hardly his fault. I lay blame with Democrats like Sam Nunn who didn’t fully support Clinton’s promise to end the ban entirely.
Today the Oborg tries to paint Clinton as anti-gay, saying that he backed down in the face of adversity. To begin with, many of these 20 somethings were still in diapers when this occurred. They may not remember the hostility towards gays and lesbians in the early 90’s. Those of us who are old enough to remember can recall that the AIDS crisis was threatening to decimate the gay community. Many people in our society (not just the military) didn’t even want to shake our hands or drink after us at water fountains out of fear of the disease. Sodomy laws were still on the books (I wonder if any of these kids even realize that at that time just being gay was technically illegal). So for Bill Clinton to even make this stand is in my eyes heroic. He could have very easily ignored his campaign promise when he saw that the political wind was at his face. But he tried, and when he couldn’t get the ban overturned, he compromised. If he had had the support of his fellow party members he may have very well been successful.
Their cowardice then led to the policy that we have now. They also showed the nation that they had no principles and were easily frightened by a small but vocal minority of religious bigots. The Obamanuts today will Blame Clinton for losing the congress in ‘94 on this very issue. But there is an argument to be made that if they had shown themselves to be principled, tenacious leaders who didn’t back down from a fight, Gingrich may have not been as successful as he was.
Fast forward 15 years to the present. What is Obama’s position on gays in the military? You would think he would be solidly against it( don’t ask don’t tell, as it is being applied now), seeing as how almost every industrialized nation in the world has shed such bans without harming military readiness. It also is a core Democratic principle to uphold rights for gays and lesbians (at least it used to be). So his position should be clear, right? not so fast :
In a recent interview with The Advocate, a gay newsmagazine, Democrat Barack Obama stopped short of promising to lead the way for change, saying only that he can “reasonably see” a repeal of the current ban if elected president.
Obama not leading the way for change? Hmm, guess he only believes in certain kinds of change. Anyway, Obama has shown that he can’t even keep promises he actually makes (or changes the meaning of them midstream to accommodate prevailing winds). With such equivocation as in the quote above, it is obvious to me that this means something on the order of “If I can do it without losing any political capital, I might, but don’t hold your breath”. Again he demonstrates the clear lack of integrity which makes him entirely unsuitable to be President of the United States.
And what about the rest of the Democrats, some of whom are still around from back in 1993? Nancy Pelosi (from San Fran-freaking-cisco!!!) wants to study the issue:
Davis said she plans to convene a hearing on the issue by the end of the year. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said she supports the creation of a panel of military experts to study the issue.
While others are being considered for some very serious roles in an Obama administration:
Last week, Nunn — whose name has been floated as a possible running mate to Obama — told reporters in Atlanta that he thinks it would now be appropriate to revisit the matter.
“I’m not advocating anything — except I’m saying the policy was the right policy for the right time, and times change. It’s appropriate to take another look,” Nunn was quoted as saying by The Atlanta Journal-Constitution.
Yes, that’s the same Sam Nunn who obstructed Clinton’s attempt to overturn the ban in 1993. Now he is being considered as a running-mate for Obama and Clinton is being trashed for his historic attempt to gain equal rights for the LGBT community.
To all you sweeties out there: This is the reason I will never vote for Obama. He is a liar and a hypocrite. Don’t you dare talk to me about Roe, or gay marriage, or anything else for that matter. Your candidate makes broad generalizations and promises to “see what he can do”. He has no intention of serving anyone but himself and the corporate handlers who own him. Barack Obama is not a friend to gays and lesbians no matter how much he and his supporters try to tell us otherwise. When it comes to his positions on gay rights it seems Obama has adopted his own “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy.
Filed under: Barack Obama, General, Politics, Presidential Election 2008 | Tagged: change, don't ask don't tell, gay rights, liars, oborg







Exactly, we have no reason to believe Obama would actually push for issues pertinent to us.
OT
Is PUMApac an outgrowth of the PUMAparty? Are they affiliated with one another?
Do you trust Obama’s new friends on this, or any other issue, particulary those concerning women??
http://tinyurl.com/3fq6ld
“So, What’s Obama Going to Give Away to Conservative Religious Leaders and Constitutional Law Profs Who Work with Ken Starr??”
I’ve done a bunch of research on the 2 “big names” and I don’t get a warm and fuzzy feeling at all…
As for NUNN…he’s part of the Boren crowd…also on my blog, 3 part series on Boren…with a nod to Nunn in Part I…
It’s in the archives…
PS–please consider adding my site to your blogroll! 7 years doing columns for Buzzflash (voluntarily, yet!) before they went nuts and being a research librarian adds up!!
gary: “He could have very easily ignored his campaign promise when he saw that the political wind was at his face”
A taste of things to come if O makes it?
swannyj: Is PUMApac an outgrowth of the PUMAparty?
No, PUMApac is not a party. I will let others explain more.
It’s amazing how much rewriting of history Obama and his supporters do. Glad you pointed this out.
Hi Dr. Martinez!
The gays are solidly behind Hillary. I just hope they don’t fall for the Unity shtick. We have fought too long and hard to be folded into another group that Obama ends up throwing under the bus.
We will be the first to be sacrificed so that Obama can pander to the religious right.
When I hear someone make the claim that Obama is a progressive I recognize that this same someone has no idea what being a progressive represents.
This man is diametrically the opposite of what a progressive stands for. To think that in the year 2008 we are still arguing and disagreeing about individual and civil rights is a testament of how lacking we are as progressives. The Clinton’s attempted to make this a cornerstone of their years in public service and they did the best they could to overcome many of these prejudices.
We are still debating gay rights, abortion rights, stem cell research within the framework of politics and allowing religious doctrine to dictate the terms. Until this intrusion is soundly defeated, there is no progression.
If everyone would concede that somewhere within their own family a gay person is likely to appear, then the argument disappears. We love our families. We would move heaven and earth to grant them the full measure of dignity and respect afforded each one of us under the constitution.
A true progressive does not need to “study” the issue. The answer is already there. Acting upon it takes leadership. Obama does not demonstrate that quality. He is not a progressive.
Help!
Do I have to register in order to post here?
The last two times I tried to submit a comment, they disappeared into the ether.
(The way Murphy works, this comment will probably show up.)
gary-
I agree with you on Bill Clinton’s heroism on lifting the military service ban. He doesn’t get enough credit in the LGBT community for that. That’s yet another reason why Hillary was my choice in the primary.
But hold on, why do you want to set back progress by doing anything that would help John McBush? Obama’s clearly better on LGBT issues than McBush. Hell, McBush doesn’t even want to do anything about DADT!
So please, I ask that you look at the big picture. Do we want to move forward or backward? Do we want a Supreme Court that protects LGBT rights or decimates them? Do we want a President who signs a repeal of DOMA into law or a Constitutional Amendment banning marriage equality? Do we want a President who will work toward repealing DADT or one that won’t do s*** about it?
It’s our choice.
Terrific post garychapelhill ! Many were floored when Nunn ’s name was floated as a VP ( along with 30 others) He’s the Dem’s Dick Cheney….where’s the change in all these Dem geezers? Also thanks for pointing out Nancy’s usual heroic stand. “Blue ribbon panels” studying something out of the news cycle are a Bush tactic used to shove something under the carpet. She’s learning from the best.
My contention is the Dem base revolt has been bubbling for years….and that these latest, but not last, out rages have , at last ,created a Mount St. Helen effect. It’s not going away. If there was even one time Nancy and Harry stood up to Bush, their insistance that we HAVE to support them, would not be so laughable. No we don’t. Obama will deliver nothing to the base. He’ll be too busy stealing social sercerity for Wall St., his true base. I’m not helping him with my vote, ever. As far as the current presidential primary goes, it was a rape of democracy. Historical , I’m tired of supporting stupid. 3 terms in 40 years is due to their stupidity….enough.
Why does Sam Nunn have to “study the issue”. DIdn’t he study it enough in 1993? “Study the issue” is a real coward’s way out.
atdleft said:
Obama’s clearly better on LGBT issues than McBush
and I say:
Prove it, cuz I don’t buy it…..
…and you’re right, it is our choice, so stop with the scare tactics and move along. You CLEARLY are not going to convince me you are right.
atdleft; “Do we want to move forward or backward?”
Religion at the convention?
it is our choice=yes we can?
atdleft,
Obama’s position of LGBT issues IS the same as McCain’s. No position. It is: “Study the issue”, “We will have a look at that”
Obama is NOT a progressive. How progressive were his woman-hating attacks on Clinton? His race-baiting tactics in SC. His anti Democratic blocking of revotes in MI and FL and then stealing delegates from Hillary.
McCain will receive my vote, because I don’t want Obama to control the Democratic party. The party I have supported faithfully since 1988.
Obama trashes our Democratic principles. He must be repudiated or we will not have a party that represents anyone but the elite.
“Obama trashes our Democratic principles. He must be repudiated or we will not have a party that represents anyone but the elite.”
Mawm’s response perfectly summarizes what the PUMA movement represents.
Obama sat in Trinity Church for 20 years. Anyone that would trust him on gay issues has blinders on.
In Trinity’s defense, they wer allegedly very accepting of gay people. I never looked into it myself so I have no proof but that’s what I hear.
I could be wrong, but I thought at least one of the preachers that came out on tape denigrated gays.
Check this out – a fantastic graphic and ideas.
http://clydestuff.blogspot.com/2008/06/unity-carousel.html
gary, Mawm: Are you guys still online?
Everyone-
Have you thought about simply seeing where Obama stands on the issues for yourself?
pride.barackobama.com/page/content/lgbthome
It’s right there for everyone to see. See his HRC questionnaire. See his interview with “The Advocate”. Obama may not be perfect, but he’s also not the homophobe you think he is.
And now, I’d like to turn the question back on y’all. How the heck is John McBush better on civil rights issues?
I live in California. McBush has endorsed the marriage ban that will be on the November ballot. He’s also pledged allegiance with wild-eyed Christianists (fundamentalists) that would make Jeremiah Wright look like a moderate. McBush has even pledged to appoint more justices like Scalia to the Supreme Court!
So how is McBush better than Obama?
Oh my god, why must I read his book to know where he stands? He’s a politician, it’s his job to make it clear.
Damn, the excuses are neverending.
benintn
your comment is offensive and typical of the “frat boy” mentality that prevades the obama camp, all the way up to the top. your ambivalence is also representative of Obama’s “i stand for nothing” outlook on politics. The President is the CIC for christ’s sake! and you don’t think the commander in chief can take on the military. try reading my post again. it wasn’t the military that stopped Clinton, it was his own party in congress. And so I guess Obama will stay away from MLK memorials as president because he doesn’t want to be seen as just representing “a certain segment of the population” . what a jerk…get lost, no get bent, then get lost….
Him being worth about a soundbite is enough.
My response to this is that enlistment is down, way down. Part of McCain’s appeal to the right is a strong military. At this point, I don’t see them turning any one away.
And Gary, if you look on the books, many of those laws are still in effect, just not enforced.
ben, dude, why should i beleive a word that he wrote? he admitted that his “autobiography” “Dreams from my Father” is full of characters that don’t exist. I call that fiction.
And I am, unfortunately, old enough to remember Bill Clinton’s fight for gays and lesbians in the military. It was a long hard battle and if he had not compromised, the ban would still be in effect. It was a step forward, albeit a small one, but at least he fought it.
Wonder if Oprah will do a James Frey on Obama as well since some of what he purportedly wrote is a little, shall we say, on the “bogus” side?
We aren’t claiming the GOP is great on civil rights, but the Democratic party is now turning its back on them too.
I don’t care what Obama says on his web-site. I am looking at actions he has taken or not taken, not what he says.
Obama and his campaign used mysogyny to attack Hilary Clinton. Obama and his campaign race-baited in every state with high percentages of AA voters. Obama blocked revotes in FL and MI.
Obama will not be pictured with mayor gavin newsome of San Francisco for fear of being tied to gay marriage. Now, he needs to study DADT.
He is NOT progressive. We cannot allow Obama to control the Democratic party. We will not HAVE a party that represents the people. Obama is the tool of the elite.
um, ben, in my opinion, all of those things you mentioned were ILLEGAL!!! and with a criminal commander in chief who went along with it (Reagan, bush). If you think Reagan was ignorant of Iran Contra you really are learning revisionist history, or I have a bridge in brooklyn you might be interested in….
ben said:
Gary, if you’re not taking Obama at his word anyway, then why bother quoting him in your blog? Why not just say “I think Obama is full of crap” and be done with it?
I think I was saying he is full of crap. but I learned in school that you are always supposed to show your work
The gay issue is just like all issues when it comes to Obama – no one knows what he thinks. He’s a blank slate. With his outreach to evangelicals – a scary blank slate.
benintn: So you really don’t believe that those things were endorsed/pushed even, by the CIC?
AbuGhraib wasn’t directly so, obviously, but the culture of the military under Bush was what made it happen.
benintn,
Audacity of Hope is a work of FICTION. Obama told us it was.
People have a habit or hearing what they want to hear when they listen to Obama.
Did you hear Obama when he said we weren’t going to be withdrawing from Iraq? He promised to withdraw then re-invade when Al Queda regains its strength.
Obama is empty.
I pity people who try to defend where BO “stands.” on any issue. The guy said Jerusalem must not be divided and the next day it was …um ah…wait I mean….
But at least he waited 24 hours to back peddle. In MT he said Iran was a threat…in OR he said Iran is not a threat …on the same day.
Whatever he says about anything means nothing. Don’t look for Barry to ” stand ” for anyone or anything.
Everyone but the $$ people will be looking at the under side of a bus.
Audacity of Hope, good door stop. The reality is Obama stands for everything., and when you stand for everything, you stand for nothing. Any way the wind blows.
why are obama’s fans so bad at reading comp? ben, Reagan and Bush were in on the crimes…the military was following their illegal commands. get it? they were complicit. your point proves the power of the CIC in that they will actually do illegal things if he tells them too(not just because they want to). Ask ollie north….
Lets just cut the crap. Ben we do not like Barack Obama. We will not vote for him. Many of us have read his book. Some of us have met him. And quess what, I will reiterate. We do not like Barack Obama. We will not vote for him.
We are not racists, we are not haters, we are not ignorant. We are voters that made our choice and will continue to do so, without your assistance.
Your lack of insight is indeed scary, yes.
benintn,
Now what? How about nominate the WINNER of the popular vote, The people’s choice, the most qualified, the one with the best chance to BEAT McCain,
Hillary Clinton
Write the superdelegates and tell them to switch to Clinton.
Hola, upstate! I’d say good morning, but it’s past noon on your side of the island (it’s 9:15 a.m. here).
benintn: Not sure what answers you are looking for here. For many of us this is personal. For a variety of reasons. Your attempt to bait gary or Mawm is falling on deaf ears. Read the post. Read prior posts. It all comes together.
Asking “now what” seems to suggest we don’t have a clue to where we stand. We do. Firmly.
Pat Johnson – Your post at 11:58 was beautiful.
Progressives want progress. Obama wants power. To what end? I don’t know, but all his courting of anti-gay, anti-choice evangelicals scares the living crap out of me.
He is to the right of Hillary on every social issue. I refuse to accept that in November, my only choices will be conservo #1 and conservo #2.
There is still a nomination process that has to happen at the Convention. I am “hoping” that my choices will “change” before November.
Let’s just say I hope all
benintn: I think you should talk more civily to Gary, since he can ban you
ben said:
Audacity of Hope is a book about ideas – ideas are not fact or fiction. They’re ideas.
this message brought to you by the Dept of Truth. Ideas are whatever we decide they are on any given day. do not question them!
Awww, benintn, Bless your heart.
Spam FIlter, Please.
how do you have a dialogue with a tree stump? anyway, I’m out of here for a while. I have a job to do
is there anyone here who can moderate and show ben the door if he gets nasty?
Yes, evangelicals scare me when they poke their fingers in international and domestic policy. I don’t want policy issues being decided on someone’s faith.
Quit your homophobic friends. I would quit any friend who was racist or sexist.
Some of my best friends are __________(fill in the blank)
Why do I always get stuck in the spaminator?
benintn, as you toddle back to Daily Gitmo, you really must pick up a dictionary. There you will hopefully a definition to “close-minded.” I do not think it means what you think it means.
Mawm,
Have you ever listened to Michaelangelo Singorile? He is on the gay channel on Sirus. He’s very funny, and I have been a big fan for a long time. He lives in NY and he sounded like a Hillary supporter (most of the callers were) but a few weeks ago I guess he drank the kool-aid. He’s pushing the unity thing now. I can’t understand it, because this guy used a be a radical.
benin: This is not a close minded blog. We are all stripes here. Gay, female, male, young, old, people of all colors, religions, Latinos, Jews, Catholics or none. Some are highly educated. Others less so . Some just entering the fabric of life, others having made that journey to here. We come in all shapes and sizes. But the common thread, the one united factor of this blog is that we share a belief that commonsense, equality for all, and above anything else, a sense of fairness.
If you stay around, be polite. But look at the comments. Intelligent, thoughtful, but full of passion. I invite you to read on.
But benintn, this is not an argument. Your christian friends have the right to believe what they want. And GLBT should have the same rights. We have the right to chose who we vote for without having to argue. These sites were created because we have made our decision. WE will not vote for Obama. Now respect that and leave.
Um….benitn? How old are you, 12? The Constitution does not give us the right to discriminate against people in public accomodations and basic human rights, just because some members of society are “offended” by them (read: bigots). If the are offended, they can just keep to themselves. If we followed your logic, black people would still be drinking out of separate water fountains. Get lost.
What it comes down to is this: Talk is cheap. Actions speak stronger than words. At this point, Obama is all talk and little to no action.
benintn: If these people vote for “uncommitted,” that is who they voted for. Votes cannot be assigned to people who were not on the ballot, and votes can not be taken from one candidated and handed to another candidate. We don’t allow lies to be posted here. Now get lost.
By having a caucus you are ignoring the will of voters who cannot attend because they must work, or are ill, or are taking care of family members.
We are committed, as are you. We are not changing our minds.
I’ve got to go back to work, my lunch break is over.
benintn, I would talk to you for a while if I had the time. There are some things that just can’t be reconciled. Believing being gay is a sin and being my friend is one of those things. I demand respect from my friends, because I give it freely back.
Obama is NOT a progressive and will take the Democratic party backwards to more corruption and secrecy. It is the Chicago way. I have seen the way he has trashed the principles of the Democratic party this entire primary. It is sad that I have to go to war with my own party to take it back to the core principles it has stood for: Civil RIghts, Voting Rights, and Working class people
God, if everyone would just adopt the adage: ” Live and let live”.
bboomer, can you make sure that ben stays in the filter. I keep trying to put him in and he keeps crawling back out. guess i need some pointers on how to banish trolls permanently to the filter….
Andy Fraser says it all in “Take me home for Xmas” which includes some of the the most embarrassing footage of Bush to date. A must see” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CO_ixw5fThQ
Mawm: Your passionate words are an inspiration.
regencyg,
The United Church of Christ is accepting of gay people, no Trinity Church. Rev. Wright has made numerous homophobic statements. And there’s McClurkin. After Obama let him speak for his campaign, I knew I could never vote for him.
gary: Your diary today was fantastic! You bring out the best of us.
I frankly don’t care what Obama says, I will never vote for him; however, I do plan to highlight specific rationale for not voting for him at every opportunity when speaking to anyone who continues to ‘drink the kool-aid’.
bostonboomer, on June 11th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
The kool aide is the distilled spirits of dead presidents.
There is so much money backing Barry, that the likes of Singorile , TM and many other small media get enough to turn too .
Bravo! I notice too, such inconsistancies in what Obama says and history. He is praying on the ignorant in our country. The WORSE type of politician there is in my book. I will never vote for Obama, just like I never voted for Bush. I saw the hypocracy in Him them, and I see the hypocracy in Obama now. Obama is Bush, but on the opposite side of the spectrum.
Atdleft: McCain’s name is not “McBush.” I guess you are OK with Osama Obama too. Let’s see, what Supreme Court Judges have we gotten from the Democratic controlled Senate? Hmmm, yes, the anti-feminist, anti-LGBT, Alito and Robertson. And, there was Obama ready to vote for the “brilliant” Robertson, in all his women hating and gay hating glory until an aid convinced him that he would be held responsible for Robertson’s conservative votes. (See, how the controlling reason for the vote has only to do with Obama’s future and nothing to do with Robertson’s troubling views). Some of our best Supreme Court Judges have been appointed under Republican administrations.
benin: Be careful throwing the word hate around. It is unbecoming. There is no real hate on this blog, just passion. When you have more life experience to share we would be happy to have you. Otherwise, you are beginning to sound like a petulant child. Your argument are your own but you have not savored life as yet. From the comfort of your zone you have yet to fully appreciate that outside that zone life takes on a different meaning.
Ben I was in the campaign and the fog cleared three months later, I committed myself to Hillary Clinton’s campaign and I am still there.
Do not speak of things you know nothing of.
Pat, you certainly do have a way with words
Yoink. The Confluence doesn’t like me. . . Or at least a specific computer I use.
This is annoying. This is the reason we left Huffpo and TM.
ben,
We just don’t care. Please leave. I’m tired of deleting your moronic comments. This is not an open debate forum and you are hijacking this thread. Again, get lost.
gary, I’m leaving one of benintn’s moronic comments up in case we want to trace his isp for comparison. I will keep an eye out for him. He’s getting on my last nerve. I hate it when people try to use the Constitution to defend bigotry.
Ignore the troll.
I wonder if ben is the guy from 2 old for maxim?
You know if Obama goes to Iran and is as damn annoying as his disciples, Ahmadinijad will kick him out on his ass.
Gary, Thank you for the memory jog re: DADT and how outrageously progressive Bill Clinton was and is — he was balancing many forces and still led us forward.
I can’t imagine how Obama could take a positive gay rights stance, when he’s holding religion-based meetings with mega-church leaders and conservatives, as reported yesterday: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080611/ap_on_el_pr/obama_religion
Hey Boston,
You should have a spreadsheet with these ISPs and work with other websites on collecting ISPs as well. It might be worth seeing if some of these people can be traced back to, oh, I don’t know one of the campaigns. . .
Poll published by CQ I found interesting….
BO loses Texas, OK, AR and Florida for a starter.
Looks bad for Mr. Hope…….
Latest State by State General Match-up:
http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/polltracker/2008/06/latest-statebystate-general-el-11.html
benintn, you are the most boring troll I’ve ever met. Why would we keep your thuggish comments?
This is a refuge from the Obama wasteland. We’ll keep a troll now and then for amusement. But when they cease to entertain — BAM you’re gone.
(and that’s you)
gary: This is personal for me too. I have a gay son who is the best thing I have ever done in my life.
gq,
Do you think Obama would actually hire moronic people like that?
bb – Obama takes what he can get.
Gary, Thank you for the memory jog re: DADT and how outrageously progressive Bill Clinton was and is — he was balancing many forces and still led us forward.
I can’t imagine how Obama could take a positive gay rights stance, when he’s holding religion-based meetings with mega-church leaders and conservatives, as reported yesterday: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080611/ap_on_el_pr/obama_religion
(Sorry if I already posted this, but my browser keeps getting stuck here, so am doing over.)
bb: It is a lot cooler here today in Western MA. Am going out for awhile; feel like I have cocooned myself over the last few days. I want to read katiebird’s new posting then go out for awhile.
Pat, you know I think it is personal for all of us. But at this point, I honestly would fight for every damn one of you and your rights. This place has become a haven for me. I can’t watch the news, can’t log into old familiar sites I used to love. I even lost a boyfriend, so for what its worth, thanks.
bb: the Obama campaign is pretty arrogant. Also, if you outsource, you aren’t always guaranteed great workers. But it would be interesting to track this sort of thing anyway. Is it widespread trolling or is it a handful of people? Do they come out at specific times or is it more “random”? Looking at the data would make a good thesis project.
Hi Pat,
Enjoy the fresh air. I plan to get out this afternoon too. See you later, I hope.
Kim: I know exactly what you mean. Turning on the tv now and then just to keep updated, canceling long time subscriptions, etc, is my only way of protest. The old sites that I used to visit when I had my coffee every morning no longer interest me since they have gotten onto the bandwagon. This is one of the few places left to express our utter outrage.
I would love to see us become a true voice out there. Where we can really make a difference. It needs someone with leadership qualities and the diarists on this blog have what it takes.
And just for the record, when I see your name come up in the postings I know we are in for yet another perspective and reason to think. Thank you!
gq,
Ron K is working on it. He’s been identifying and comparing ISPs. Some of them appear to be a group from a Northwestern state. It’s really odd that they think they can fool people with the prefab comments though. The obnoxious ones probably aren’t affiliated with the sweetie campaign, but who knows? When you’re dealing with insanity, it’s very hard to draw conclusions.
prefab comments….indeed. Everyday one can see what the day’s talking point is cause they are every where! Right now there seems to be alot of the sorrowful trolls ….sort of an off branch of the concern troll . If they care so much about the SSC appointments , then back Hillary, the candidate who can beat MaCain…. seems logical to me
IndianaGal,
Your sarcasm is ugly. We did not want to engage in a debate over whether being gay was a sin or not.
But we do think and debate about Iraq. Knowing that Obama will reinvade Iraq after withdrawing is very worrying. He will reinvade when Al Queda has regained strength.
As far as the Supreme court, wasn’t it the Democratic senate that approved Alito?
Take your tired talking points back to Obama fairy-tale land.
indianagal, in order to dissent you have to have a point. it appears none of you sweeties understand that. Do you really think mocking us is going to help your cause? And apparently you didn’t read my last paragraph. you can take your SCOTUS argument and stick it in your a#$!
I’ve come around to the conclusion that Obama is basically a “finger in the wind” type of guy.
I’ll very very very respectfully disagree with many of you, and vote for and support Obama, as an obviously preferable candidate to McCain, but I can definitely see where you’re coming from.
That being said, it’s just ridiculous talking with Obama supporters, who think he walks on water. I think the disconnect between the Obama seen by his supporters and the Obama seen by the rest of us may be one of the biggest reasons he’ll struggle this cycle. If you’re looking for a bold leader who will propose and implement bold change, well unless you’ve drunk the Kool-Aid, you won’t see that in Obama. He’s shown no record of meaningful leadership or courage on any issue of importance (yes, I’m aware of his interrogation videotaping bill- despite the hoopla, the police union had no vested opposition to that bill, and once Obama promised them future consideration, the bill became a no-brainer- not exactly a very difficult or contentious bill, unlike say standing up to ethanol interests or banking interests), and it’s laughable to think that this spineless craven politician will somehow implement some meaningful change in Washington, particularly when that “change” isn’t even articulated and hence has no mandate.
Vote for Obama because he’s not George Bush’s Third Term. But don’t expect him to be a particularly refreshing or visionary leader if he wins.
redsox….I have to call bs on you. why would anyone with half a brain vote for him after all of the negatives you listed. When you get down to it, you’re still making the “bush’s third term” argument, which doesn’t fly here. Many of us believe Obama WOULD be worse than mccain. He is a lot more like bush than mccain is. I’m voting for Mccain (if obama makes it through the summer) because he’s not bush’s third, obama is.
I laugh every time an Obama troll starts ‘worrying about the SC and Iraq’…….. There would not be a worry if they had not gone over the cliff with Mr. Hope. We had a candidate who was a real mechanic and would have done the job for us all. But they chose the loser. So shut up with worry about…..
Yes, and if Obama wins, don’t expect to ever see a ‘refreshing or visionary leader’.
Does anyone remember seeing an interview (maybe Oprah?) where BO was asked if he was pro gay marriage and he said that he “wasn’t there yet” and then mumbled something about uh his religion and “who he is” or something like that. I wonder if courting evangelicals was the plan all along.
Obama, Mr. Evangelical-recruiting-televangelist isn’t exactly trustworthy for Supreme Court picks.
And being a gutless wonder, he isn’t going to get us out of Iraq.
So those arguments just make me laugh, and throw these people’s coathangers right back at them.
Indianagal,
We are all well-informed and well-read here. This is not the only site we visit. This site was created as a refuge for people who had been attacked, abused, and beat down by Obama supporters like you. We don’t care what you think and we are sick to death of listening to the whining. Your candidate won. I don’t know what you problem is, but it seems to me you should be working to get him elected. There aren’t any votes for him here.
Robin,
The courting evangelicals thing was pretty clearly presaged in his book, The Audacity of Hope.
bostonboomer, oh sorry, I have to admit I haven’t been able to bring myself to read it. I keep meaning to and then just can’t.
Acutally, atd was/is a Hillary supporter, but he’s young.
Robin,
Don’t bother. I read it so you don’t have to. I have both of his books here, and I can look things up. The book isn’t worth reading except as oppo research.
Thanks
Know Your Trolls:
Family Dynamics Institute – “The Marriage Authority”
Franklin TN
It just goes to show when the you know whos (YKW)continually show up to give their opinion that they can’t live without us.
I say to those YKW go to the sites where people might give you the time of day. We know the routine, the talking points but more importantly we know why we aren’t voting for Mr. INEXPERIENCED.
Hi Gary! Great post.
I believe we have to fight for the rights of ALL people and I *thought* that was the stance of the democratic party. It pisses me off to no end to find that our rights are trampled at the earliest convenience if there is money or favors involved.
Bedrock beliefs shouldn’t require ANY study.
Maybe someday someone will explain to me why anyone cares about someone else’s sexual orientation. It’s something I’ve never understood.
Show me someone that harms anyone weaker than they are and I’m ready to fight. Harm a child or an animal and I am an aged, arthritic Zena the Warrior Woman willing to take on the evildoers. Kick a puppy and you have an enemy for life.
Consenting adults consorting with other consenting adults? Why on earth would I care or would it be any of my business? I don’t get it.
My husband and I both sent cards already:-) It felt good. In the address line, I put:
The Honorable Hillary Rodham Clinton
“Madam President”
I agree Marge.
I think the problem is that gay and lesbian people are not guaranteed equal housing, jobs, and automatic survivorship rights in all places in the country. People who are gay can still be discriminated against depending on where they are because the federal government hasn’t taken a firm stance.
For me to have equal rights as a woman, I have to make sure that all other marginalized groups have equal rights too.
I’ve always been astonished about people trying to rewrite the history of what actually happened in the ’90’s, particularly the claim that Bill Clinton didn’t fight for gay people. He most certainly did.
I happen to have been in the military in the bad old days before “don’t ask, don’t tell.” I was in the Air Force and the main thing the OSI did for their amusement was conduct periodic witch hunts. They particularly liked to come after the women in my barracks, since we were all in non-traditional jobs (jet aircraft mechanics), which was very new at the time. Gerry Ford had just opened up those jobs to us and we were constantly harrassed, as women generally are every time they break new ground. The OSI and their gay/lesbian witch hunts were just more of the same. They would drag us in and question us for hours, trying to get us to either admit we were queer or to turn someone else in. They would claim to already have proof and would go easier on us if we would confess.
In my 4 years in the AF, I’m sure I was taken in for questioning at least 10 times, or they were at the door to my room demanding to search my room. They never found enough evidence against me, but it wasn’t a very restful experience. And I saw a number of friends get thrown out as a result. Back then you got a Dishonorable Discharge, which followed you the rest of your life.
So when Bill Clinton pushed so hard for this issue, even though the result wasn’t perfect, I and many others who had actually experienced the discrimination were ecstatic! Don’t ever let anyone tell you that Bill Clinton didn’t work his butt off to help the LGBT community. He most certainly did. I also very clearly remember a gay woman he appointed to a cabinet level position. I can still see Jessie Helms’ apoplectic questioning of her. I wish I could recall her name. Quite frankly, Bill Clinton is the only president who has ever done anything to help gay people.
I can’t wait for Obama to retreat on DOMA once people realize it means .. correct me if I’m wrong .. federal recognition of CA/MA marriages. Remember that Clinton took up gays in the military because of a campaign promise. Everything that Obama non-promises this year is pretty much guaranteed to go nowhere next year. He’s not going to go busting filibusters in the senate over gay rights .. unless Clinton feels like doing it for him, but then as has been pointed out here, she’s not a leader in the senate.
CognitiveDissonance, her name is Donna Shalala and she still rocks:
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/donna_e_shalala/index.html
And yes, I love the USAF but 4 years is too too long.
Karl: Hillary is a non-leader in the Senate, with 18 million voters behind her. Sounds like an oxymoron to me.
Where’s the Hillary? To me, the most relevant rebuttal is that HRC has been calling “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell” a failure since she first ran for Senate in 1999. She repeated her criticism of it at least as recently as March of this year.
What the hell is there to study? Pelosi is a real sleaze ball, a San Fransisco representative and ask for cover of a study?
Al European countries and Israel have no sexual orientation conditions on service in the military. Israel, with universal conscription, will release gays from service if they themselves ask for it due their own perception of hardship.
Talking about military, no other democracy handles its veterans, injured and families of the fallen as badly as the US.
To sum it up: we screw anyone who cannot resist strongly. What a country.
good day it really is we had rain today in dry little gainesville florida two days in a row maybe our drought is over.
Well now Obama has thown the LGBT community under the bus I figured he would at least wait until after he got my bear buddies votes in November.
He will continue dont ask dont tell put ENDA on the back burner-not support gay marriage(even though the united church of christ his denomination supports gay marriage.) Oh sorry forgot he threw them under the bus a week or two ago.
Someone already said on here that his bus better be a 747 super jumbo jet hes going to need the room.
I am not suprised about this I am sure those evangelical christians told him how people who have deserve it as God’s punishment. A womens place is in the kitchen. Oh and lets see their slaery was the punishment on the children of Han for seeing Noah Naked.
He will not get one of there votes anyway so what is he trying to prove?
As I am going out with my bear friends tonight I will relay them mor about their candidate any more anti gay agenda did Senator O develope?
I love you all -Fuzzybeargville
Please do not forget Bill clintons historic appointment of over 200 LGBT citizens to important posts in his administration. Also Bill appointed JamesHormel as Ambassador to Luxembourg the land of my mothers grandparents.
Luxembourg also had the first african american female ambassador from the United States.
Bill Clinton is a friend of our community. Hillary will do more to advance the LGBT community on day one than Obama would do in his whole first term.
I love you all fuzzybear
how many weeks has it been now since obama has refused to speak to the LGBT press?
There’s a video out you may all want to see:
i put it out on this page and it’s below the flineo utube.
It’s a flip flip on the iran war thing and we should make it viral on utube. so click on the utube and make it go viral please..
http://dakiniland.wordpress.com/obama-gaffe-and-flip-flop-patrol/
Bill Clinton should’ve gotten all Truman on Colin Powell’s ass and fired him when Powell, in uniform, became insubordinate to his commander-in-chief. In case, you’ve forgotten Powell lead the charge to ban gays in the military and hated the “dont ask don’t tell” compromise.
phoepe- you are an obama plant we will not be swayed Obama is not a Democrat ihe has the political style of Mugabe Stalin and Pol Pot all roled into one.
You are probably a str8 24 year old male who cut and pasted your’re reply.
As Glend the good witch said “be gone you have no powers here…”
Love to all the real conflunce supporters here
fuzzybear
New thread.
Oh Phoebe, even when impersonating a Clinton supporter, you sound like a bot phoning it in. Stop drinking the kool-aid and you too can have a mind of your own.
Thank you for making this so very clear. What has bothered me about Obama for a long time is that he has no known gay friends. Nor any gay associates of any long term standing. There arn’t any prominent gay people on his team. His campaign is about as queer free as G. Bush’s.
Hillary has loads of gay and lesbian friends, staffers and supporters. Obama has none.
==============================================ALERT:
PLEASE GET THIS TO
ALL THE GROUPS.
http://www.youtube.com/kimfrederi
Democrat Barack Obama stopped short of promising to lead the way for change, saying only that he can “reasonably see” a repeal of the current ban if elected president.
Gary, you’re right. Senator Obama is selective with his hope and change. It does not apply to everyone equally.
Thanks for another great post!
Bill Clinton deserves massive credit for bringing up and taking on the issue of letting gay people serve openly in the U.S. military. It is one reason I worked for his campaign and voted for him. I was disappointed in the DADT compromise, but it wasn’t Bill who did it – it was the chickens in Congress, as this diary states.
Clinton deserves MASSIVE credit.
I trust the HRC, i.e., Human Rights Campaign, not Hillary Rodham Clinton. The HRC has endorsed Obama. There’s no way in hell the HRC would’ve done this if Obama were weak on don’t ask don’t tell.
Do you have evidence as to what Hillary Clinton’s stance on GLBT issues is? I haven’t seen her do anything in the Senate for equal rights, and I know she’s opposed to gay marriage (have seen her say so- she’s ok with ‘civil unions’ which is a stance no different than Barack Obama). I know what BILL Clinton did for the military and DADT, but that’s it. What else has Hillary done with her 35 years in public service? What has she done in the Senate?
I know this comment will be deleted since you guys don’t like dissenting opinion, but I just wanted to ask since I really don’t know what HER stance is. And WHO her apparently thousands of gay friends and staffers are. Do they talk about equal rights for the GLBT community when stumping or when on CNN, etc? Obama has an entire section on Civil Rights on his website, including a blurb about strengthening hate crimes legislation and passing the Matthew Shepherd act. Where can I find the same on Clinton’s site?
What is her stance, anywhere, on GLBT issues? I just don’t see it on her site nor have I heard her talk about it, other than her exit speech where she said straight and gay people liked her.
Hillary along with T Kennedy (d) Mass have repeatly introuced ENDA into the senate and she has held hearing on DADT her work with LGBT youth in New York is ledgendary Kiko get your Obama self back to Hypeland and bye the way there endorsement of Obama came after they could see the “handrighting on the wall.”
The HRC is an inside the beltway organization has little support at the grass roots level
Love Fuzzybear
you really think the HRC has our best interest in mind? I lived in DC and they are every bit “the villagers” as everyone else there. They haven’t done squat for me lately. How bout you?
oh, and what fuzzybear said
what kiko said: Hillary has shown herself to be a great ally to LGBT people. She has gone on the record with many gay newspapers and magazines. Obama has distanced himself (check out the blank page on the philly gay news–he wouldn’t talk to them) he also has made seriously offensive remarks, like the professor he had that was gay whom he admired because he didnt’ try to proselytize people. sure sign of a homophobe is that they are worried we will “convert” them. Then there is the whole McClurkin mess. And Obama’s recent outreach to evangelicals is just another slap in the face, while at the same time equivocating about DADT. So take your sorry ass talking points somewhere else. I doubt your even gay, and if you are you really need to get yourself informed.