The Five Stages of Death
The sweeties were out early this morning and while we were talking about their comments, MAWM suggested a post on where Obama’s supporters are on the Kubler-Ross “stages of death” continuum. This is a good companion guide to the Obamaniac Behavior Cycle from a couple days back.
Stage 1, Denial:
In this stage, Obamaphiles deny that Hillary is of any consequence at all. They point to all the “metrics” that show that she can’t possibly win. I think we can pretty much declare this stage over. Although it still rears its ugly head with breathless gasps about “The Rulz” and “The Math”. For example (warning, this link goes to Obama fairyland, click at your own risk):
The real question isn’t whether or if Barack Obama will win — the question is when and how. Will enough superdelegates endorse him so that he can wrap it up on May 20, when he secures a majority of pledged delegates? Or will they wait into early June? Either way, Obama is winning. Will it be in mid- to late-May, or early-June? For the answer to that, we’ve got to stay tuned.
Stage 2, Anger:
We all know this stage very well. This is the infamous WWTSBQ stage that they still go back to from time to time. My favorite example of this comes from John “Crybaby” Aravosis at Americablog. His infantile tantrum aptly demonstrates how very deep within the psyche this anger resides:
IT’S NOT CLOSE. YOU FREAKING LOST THE NOMINATION, WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU?
Good God. What is wrong with her? The Clintons and their campaign staff don’t give a damn that they are now hurting our electoral chances in the fall against McCain and against the Republicans in Congress. Their campaign isn’t happening in some vacuum, and they know it. Our candidates can’t fundraise because of her. Obama can’t focus on McCain because of her. Obama is wasting money on HER, rather than spending it on McCain, because of her. EMILY’s List, and AFSCME, and the American Federation of Teachers and others are wasting their members’ money on her now-failed race – money that they could be spending, should be spending, on other real races, races that haven’t already lost. She can’t win, the math says she lost the nomination, but she doesn’t give a damn. She’s going to stay in the race like some spoiled hateful egotistical brat.
Stage 3, Bargaining:
I think this is the stage we’re in right now. This is the “Sweetie” stage. I only have to look in this morning’s thread to find an example of this from commenter N8Ma:
What if Obama picks Sebelius as VP? Or Napolitano? And McCain doesn’t pick a woman for VP, and instead reiterates his desire to select anti-Roe judges to the Supreme Court? Are you really willing to cast your vote against the first truly viable ticket with a female VP, because you’ve become convinced that the media’s sexism was Obama’s fault?
Stage 4, Depression:
Get ready folks, its coming. Either when Hillary gets the nomination or when The Precious gets his a%$ handed to him by the Republicans. The wailing of how unfair it is has already begun:
Barack Obama had harsh words for the Tennessee GOP today: “Lay off my wife” Obama was responding to the Tennessee GOP’s recent online advertisement featuring remarks from his wife that some viewed as unpatriotic.
Stage 5, Resignation:
January 20, 2009: Hillary Clinton is inaugurated as the 44th President of the United States of America.
Filed under: Barack Obama, General, Presidential Election 2008, snark | Tagged: Obamamania, stages of death
BO supporters just don’t get it. ANY woman is not our woman. It’s Hillary we support, not her sex.
I hope BO does nominate one of his own “sweeties” – even more reason to vote against him.
Absolutely brilliant garychapelhill! Yours is undeniably more accurate, more insightful, and more better in every way than Kos’ fairy tale post about our supposed stages of grief.
Heck, hillary supporters feel happy today. not in denial. in full understanding of the reality she and we face in getting our party back.
I just love the 5th stage, resignation. the coup de gras!
Here’s my favorite Aravosis link of him ranting and raving against Fighting Dem Patrick Murphy when she was just an oh, so lowly Dem trying to recapture the House.
Of course once he won it was all kisses, candy and flowers.
http://www.americablog.com/2006/01/patrick-murphy-meet-my-spam-filter.html
Oops, Patrick is a he. My dang computer definitely needs a “tune-up.” And quickly.
Sorry.
The whole Obama fandom seems based on sheer projection. It’s insane!
I know Clinton will be vindicated no matter what happens: if the nomination is stolen from her, historians will point to the misogyny and its resulting Obama landslide of ‘08 (”Obama” will become code for FUBAR); if the DNC chooses democracy and fairness, Clinton will not only be the first woman presidential nominee but the first woman president of the United States.
Last night, I couldn’t sleep I was so excited. I can now see her as our next president. Can you believe it?!
shain — I know how sexist is it to offer another woman for VP as if their all interchangeable. The really don’t get it.
murphy- I thought I was being original. oh well, i’m sure mine is more reality based
God, riverdaughter, you’re wonderful!
mimi- I love how he himself called it his “two minute hate”. He really needs a little anger management help I believe.
Oops. My bad. She’s wonderful, too.
I meant to say, “God, garychapelhill, you’re wonderful!”
gary thats why yours is so great. It actually is original in content and analysis. His is wishful thinking and frankly, boring and wide of the mark by a lot.
There are so many examples of 2 and 3 out there you could do this all day. denial seems mostly done with, as you say.
I really cant wait for stage 5!
btw, Liss has parts 96 AND 97 in the “Hillary Clinton Sexism Watch” up.
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/
two in one day! and it’s only lunch time!
Yes, either now or next time . I choose believe this campaign will help our country ultimately, by breaking the mystic control the two political Party’s both now controlled by fringe political sects and against the majority of the Peoples have had on our country. This is what has driven the rancor that divides us as people and their power is over along with the tabloid political punditry class, all good in my view. Part of me wishes Hillary would run as an Independent or with McCain, that would shatter more than the glass ceiling and place the country before Party, I would of course follow her to either ticket.
Gary,
Brilliant post! I love it!
murphy- I love the quote in stage one. He asks himself like three times not if, but when Obama will win. a little stuart smalleyesque. affirmation and denial all at the same time.
I’ve already got myself into a truckload of trouble with people in stage 4.
Yesterday someone here at work was talking about how they “looooved” Michelle Obama, when I said “oh geez” and then later explained my reaction.
I didn’t include the “I’m finally proud of my country” because I honestly understood that and it was said without malice (it seemed to me). I talked about the speech she gave at the Trumpet awards dinner/gala in South Carolina in which her statements were vile and vitriolic and filled with bitterness. I said the reason this had an impact on me was that it was a formal speech that she made on a very formal occasion and it was intended to stir up anger and hatred. But the fact that it was a formal speech means that she had control over what she was saying. And could have at any time, chosen to modify the tenor of the speech. She did not do so.
I initially saw it on C-SPAN and later, surprise of all surprises, it was scrubbed from the site. I have continued to look for this speech and it is no where to be found.
btw, melissa has parts 96 AND 97 up on her “Hillary Clinton Sexism Watch”
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/
they’re both doozies too. and two in one day!
ugh. I’m glad I dont have a tv.
garyinchapelhill
This was a great post. thank you.
Dear Obama Supporters, please take this back to your leader:
You have given me absolutely no reason to vote for you. Your credentials are thin, your grasp of the issues, marginal, your policy statements only echo Sen Clinton’s in a “me too” manner. You inexperience frankly scares the hell out of me and I have no idea what you objectives are with the “hope” and “change” rhetoric. Please help me visualize this.
After 15 months of listening and watching your rise as a “media darling” I have no sense of you and what little there is to know leaves me with more questions.
We can argue that my disenchantment is based soley on sexism and although this is a major consideration, it is not the entire package. Your failure to address this issue. along with your willingness to inflect cries of racism against two people, who alienated the Right for their support of the black community, is something which plays a major issue in my indifference to your campaign. What you did, or allowed to happen, is disgraceful. We both know that this charge is not true yet, for your own political expediency, you permitted this to happen. This speaks right to your character. Severely lacking.
You do not have my vote. You will never have my vote. No need to direct surrogates to make your case with threats and insults. It just won’t work.
oops i might be stuck in the spam filter — I’m lousy at embedding links.
Check out parts 96 and 97 in Melissa McEwan’s “Hillary Clinton Sexism Watch” at shakesville.
They’re both real doozies.
I found them, murphy.
I dunno, I think I am still in stage one. You are all aware of the metrics so no point in rehashing any of them. For a long time I have known BO is going to win yet I can not stop wondering how HRC will win.
Last night I was wondering why I am even entertained or care at about this race. I think I am pretty confident that BO is going to win the GE but if I really knew that wouldn’t this all be terribly boring?
Hi Pat,
Better to tell him yourself: http://my.barackobama.com/page/s/contact2
And I mean that seriously — email them, let them know.
I really don’t understand what they are complaining about. Why don’t they just ignore us? I thought this whole thing was wrapped up and in the bag for Barry and the congressional Ds this Fall. I thought they were flush with more money than they could spend. They built a new coalition. They have a new “map” along with the new “math.” I’m past all the stages of grief. I’m simply free and enjoying this because either Hillary will be the nominee or we will ensure Barry’s loss.
Ryan, not to be snarky or anything, but if he’s going to win it, why doesn’t he stop talking about it and just do it already?
Another great post, Gary. Actually, I see them recycling back to Anger after they try the Bargaining, but that’s probably because, as you say, the really bad stuff hasn’t happened yet.
good lord, is Ella insufferable or is it just me?
Leaders lead. They should not need to be told to lead. If they dont lead they are not leaders.
Politicians are supposed to ASK for my vote. I am not supposed to ASK HIM to speak to me.
geez!
Thanks BB!
Ella: Thanks. I cut and pasted it into the comment section. I am sure they won’t bother to read it but instead place me on their donor list so I will be getting a lot of e-mail from them.
It is projection – that’s exactly what it is. The OFB is our version of what Republicans did with Bush and they are doing it for the exact same reasons. It’s so weird, it’s really creepy. It’s like they’re trying to export all the shortcomings of the Republican party and make this a total non-fuctioning nation.
Good point, Gary. Why is Barack tip toeing around? Why does he have to hid dbehind the skirts of the media? When you really think about it the man is so out of his league. Hillary has stood up against everyone and everything and won despite insurmountable odds.
Pat Johnson, you are a nicer person than I.
Murphy: Ella is totally insufferable.
I meant it, though! The reason a lot of us Obama people are here is because we don’t get the vow to vote McCain if Clinton’s not the nominee. That’s serious business, and the letter explained Pat’s position well. That’s stuff the Obama campaign should see. (Hopefully they’ll leave you off future emails, Pat, but activate spam blocker just in case)
murphy: Watch, I am about to be bombarded with donor materials from them. If not, then I will know they read it.
Pat Johnson,
Great letter!
Your letter to the Obama supporters covered all the points that I said to the DNC people who came to my house on Monday after work. ONLY you said it much more nicely and and with greater intelligence.
They did write down what I said. And the one worker was also the office manager who said Howard Dean was going to be meeting with them tonight.
I’m going to copy what you said and try to be in better control of my resentment toward the DNC the next time they come round here.
Can I just make a statement about Kentucky, as someone who has lived his entire life here, and loves the state completely?
There are 3 distinct areas: West (rural and midwestern), Louisville (not at all representative of the rest of Ky), and Appalachia.
The western region isn’t great for Obama, as it is rural, white, and not extremely educated (we all leave once we get out of college).
Appalachia really is a problem for Obama, and it is going to remain a problem for him throughout the GE. I have worked there for several years, although I reside in Louisville. I look and speak like them, but I am not welcomed with open arms because I am a flatlander. It is an isolated area that is not trusting of outsiders. They have a long history of being exploited by outsiders, like the owners of the mines they died in for years. They love the Clintons. Bill went to Hazard and spoke on the courthouse steps, as president. That’s a big deal to them.
Barack Obama is going to have a hard time being at all competitive in this area. But, I am not going to allow Appalachian sentiment decide who we should or shouldn’t nominate any more that I would allow the deep south to make that decision. Some of their feelings on this are just morally wrong, and I am not going to capitulate to them on that issue.
Another thing to remember about KY as a whole is that it is 2.5 to 1 Dem to GOP. But, the state is about 75% self identified Conservative. We are all Dems to be able to vote in the local Dem primaries that decide each and every local election. The General Election for local judge is barely contested. Although, some of this has begun to change as Republicans are starting to register as republicans. So, if BO’s wins in states with independent voters are not legit, than this win for Clinton is no more legit, since in includes more GOP minded folks than Dems.
And as a last point: I have had 3 people in the last week, in Louisville, with college educations, say, “I’m not voting for a muslim.” So, if he is sending flyers out with him standing in front of a cross, in a church, I can’t hold it against him too much. He is trying to convince people he isn’t a muslim. That he shares their values.
These are good people in this state, but it doesn’t mean that they aren’t completely wrong on some issues, race being one of them. I love my home, but I was embarrassed last night when 1 in 5 DEMOCRATIC voters were willing to say, “race is an issue in my choice.”
I have not one bad word to say about Senator Clinton.
pat j– thats funny let us know if u get inundated!
leslie: Unfortunately the media and the DNC have chosen the horse they wish to ride in on. They refuse to listen. There is still a small window of opportunity left open but unless they seriously take the will of the majority into account they are in danger of presenting a seriously flawed and inept candidate to head the top of the ticket. The only way our voices have a chance to be heard will come in November should he be the nominee. We all concede that there is something inherently wrong with this nomination and I am not willing to take the chance of placing someone who has so many outstanding issues and concerns attached to him to be so casually vetted for the “good of the party”. I loathe McCain but my concerns about Obama as as great.
grateful I think your post borders on the race baiting that we are
so tired of. I saw the shameful CNN video where the panel dismisses all of KY as racist and that hillary should “reject their votes”. asking “is race a factor” is so disengenuous. How you assume that a yes answer to that question = racist is in fact a little bit racist of you. It also dilutes the charge of racism when it really occurs. That is shameful behavior. And we haven’t even talked about what it means that African Americans have been voting Obama 9-1. You don’t hear Hillary crying about that. She has denounced, however, the very real sexism coming from the media and his campaign, and as a father of two daughters, he should be ashamed of himself
Ryan, on May 21st, 2008 at 12:40 pm Said:
“Last night I was wondering why I am even entertained or care at about this race. I think I am pretty confident that BO is going to win the GE but if I really knew that wouldn’t this all be terribly boring?”
I’m sooo glad we can make this experience entertaining for you, so that it is not too terribly terribly boring, old chum.
How do you like your latte?
grateful: your post is non-sensical. And why does everyone presume that if you tell an exit poller you voted on “race” that it was a vote against a candidate? The fact is that a vote in Pike County, Kentucky means as much as a vote in Eugene, Oregon. Stop grouping us and parsing us.
Gary,
Sorry, I don’t think it is at all racist to admit that there is a racist undertone to much of my state. If we ignore it, it doesn’t mean that it isn’t there. Like I said, sometimes good people hold on to horrible ideals.
How do you explain that 20% of the electorate said race was in fact a factor in their decision without believing that race played a part in their decision. Can we not admit that race may play a factor in decision making in the deep south?
I completely see the point about 90% of AA’s voting for Obama. But, in my humble opinion, voting for someone of your ethnicity is a bit less racist than voting against someone because of his. Not excusable, but easier for me to understand.
Gary: African-Americans represent 12% of the total US population. Women represent over 50% of the total US population. That’s probably why the 90% black vote’s being shrugged off more easily than Clinton’s proportions of women, especially as Clinton’s been heavily emphasizing her gender in the race (I know some think Obama’s been pressing his blackness, but I haven’t seen it as evidently as Clinton’s appeals to women).
Saying race is “a factor” in your vote is not saying you are a racist.
My dad is not a racist, but he does not believe USA will vote for an AA right now. He would answer YES to that same question, but he is NOT a racist. He may be wrong about USA not being ready, but he is NOT a racist.
Stage 5, baby, stage 5.
Grateful: It’s really a rotten thing to diss your own state and your own people. This whole “they don’t like outsiders” thing is hogwash. How do you think the uneducated are treated in Greenwich, CT? or Hyde Park, Chicago?
Ella -are you accusing Hillary, the media, or Obama of shrugging off African Americans I don’t get your point. your statement about them pressing their “blackness” and Clinton “appealing to women” is racist and sexist at the same time! What a juvenile assessment of the race.
I really do not know. I could sit around and speculate all day but it probably would not be anything we have not heard before. It definitely would never become much more than just speculation. It all probably boils down to attempting to seize the nomination before the contest has unacceptable long term consequences.
Nominating a leader is kind of like installing a processor or RAM. If it does not seem to be fitting, pushing harder is probably the wrong answer because you know that at the end of the day it will fit, somehow. Crappy analogy, I know. It is a fine line between decisive and thickheaded, strong and obstinate, gracious and wimpy, and so on. According to open secrets HRC has spent around 6.3 million on political consultants, polling, and research while BO has spent about 10.5 million on those same things. Maybe this is a mistake, but I would file those expenditures under the category of “image management.”
Alright, I ended up speculating anyway. I think initially that he was going to declare victory on May 20th but ultimately concluded that people would see it as mean (or something like that). I would not underestimate the sophistication of political campaigns so maybe he indicated he would declare victory while never planning on declaring victory to get the best of both worlds; widely perceived as the winner… and gracious! Who knows? *shrug*
I suppose the equally plausible and obvious answer is, he would if he could but he cannot.
gratefulcub,
That’s interesting. Thank you. I think the best way for Barack Obama to get to know people and connect with them would be to go to where they live, talk to them honestly, LISTEN to what they have to say, and humbly ask them for their vote.
I am in a demographic that should be attracted to Barack Obama. I’m highly educated and work in the academic community. I was quite impressed with him at first.
The first thing that turned me off about him was that he didn’t ask for my vote. Then he made it clear that he didn’t WANT my vote with his negative remarks about baby boomers. Then when he threw the GLBT community under the bus, I was pretty much through with him. Although I am straight, I abhor bigotry in any form. Next Obama alienated senior citizens with his dog whistling on social security. And of course he has treated women with stunning disrespect.
And, no I don’t expect him to go to Kentucky or Southern Ohio or West Virginia and ask for votes from the people who live there. Why? Because he is incredibly arrogant and thinks the voters’ support is his due. He thinks he is better than all of us, including the “creative class” bloggers. He will never be President. He will either lose the nomination or go down to ingnominious defeat in the fall. At least John McCain know how to *pretend* he’s a regular guy.
Ella,
Did Clinton ever give Obama the finger?
ben-I doubt he really is from KY. I lived their myself and it doesn’t sound like my experience at all.
Ooohhh. now I knew better than to read any of those quotes from Obops very closely. I feel bad about wanting to punch someone in the post when they are dealing with grief.
My mother, a Hillary supporter, always said to “ignore inappropriate behavior.” So I think that’s what we should do to the trolls. But I repeat my point and ask the question “Why do they care what we think, anyway?” They have a new map and new voters. We aren’t needed. So why keep bothering with us?
angelasmith,
You should be ashamed of yourself! Obamabots are going through a lot right now. Half of them don’t even know their candidate is dead in the water.
bboomer- exactly! Obama has consistently blamed voters when they don’t vote for him (they’re racist, bitter, clingy, uneducated, rubes). I guess he forgot that they are democrats who get to decide again to vote for him in the fall (not going to happen) IF he gets the nomination
Conflucians: Don’t feel obliged to respond to the sweeties. We don’t owe them anything, including answers.
As for myself, I’ve answered and answered these
trollssweeties enough times already.ella, at least you are self-aware! I appreciate that.
However, if I wanted to learn how and why people love Obama and want to vote for him, I would go to an Obama-supporting blog and I would lurk, listen, and learn.
I would most definitely not condescend to, challenge, or cluelessly dismiss the very real reasons commenters there might have for supporting him, or for being angry about unfair, untrue, or bigoted opposition to him.
Pat J is one of the most insightful, intelligent, and passionate commenters here. It is not her job to inform Obama supporters why she, or anyone, will not vote for him. We come here to share, inform, and inspire each other.
Go through the threads here. You will not find hate. You will not find racism. You will not find rumor, innuendo, or smearing. You will find some mild ridicule of Obama cultists. most of it is quite amusing.
You should learn a lot by going through the threads.
As an Obama supporter, if you think Pat’s letter was a well-expressed opinion YOU should be the one who shares that opinion with your comrades, not her.
What IS it about Obama and his supporters expecting women to do their work for them? Sweetie, Waffle Waitress, Mayhill Fowler, Hillary, Women voters.
Gary,
Born in Paducah, grew up in Oscar (between monkey’s eyebrow and possum trot), graduated from Murray State, worked in Lexington in a corporate headquarters for Appalachian non profit hospital chain, and now live in Louisville.
Ben,
That is a good question. If they don’t need us, why are they here?
It could be stage 1., but perhaps stage 3.
It really doesn’t sound like stage 3. though. I think it is hysterisis between stage 1 and 2. They move back and forth so fast though, the line gets blurred.
Ben,
Question” “Why do they care what we think, anyway?” They have a new map and new voters. We aren’t needed. So why keep bothering with us?
Answer: They are scared.
gratefulcub,
You do seem to have disdain for the people you live with, though.
They are here because they need us.
What they can’t get through their heads is that we don’t need them.
Mawm, I was trying to imply that it probably has more to do with me than anybody else really. I was just kind of wondering out loud why it interested me. Why should it?
Gary, I kind of (not really) answered your question. I think it went in the spam filter though.
I’m wondering about the habit of referring to ideals like hope and change or ambiguous terms like “the math” as concrete things. like change is coming. We have to work for change. What is this change they speak of? also from Aravosis above:
“but the math says she lost” . I’d like to talk to this math fellow. Is their a psychological term for this sort of behavior?
Murphy,
Thank you. I tried to express something like that on the previous thread. You said it much better. Being a “friend of Bill W.,” I tend to go the straighforward route.
My advice to Obama supporters who want to understand why we will never vote for him: “Take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth.” Stop judging and LISTEN.
ben, mawm,
I think we represent the car wreck that was their sham of a candidate and sham of a campaign. they just cant stop themselves from looking.
mawm — hysterisis is an awesome word! I never heard it before. perfect description of obamatons. perfect!
Obamamania is a system in hysterisis.
Gary,
I think the psychological term is “mumbo jumbo.” In AA, we call it “ragtime.”
Gary: Racist and sexist all in one go…. What do I need for the hat trick? And I’m mostly accusing statistics of shrugging off the AA vote, except in states where their demographic goes above 20%; Hillary’s women bloc will always carry a larger percentage of the vote, and so statistically more relevant.
Mawm, no clue if Clinton’s ever flipped off Obama. What do you know?
murphy: I’ve been through lots of the threads here, most of them on the first two pages of the site. And I should NOT be the one sending along that letter, for two excellent reasons: one, as I’ve seen in those threads, the level of animosity towards anyone under the Obama banner is pretty patronizing and dismissive — from what I gather, I’m meant to be a spoilt child with a pile of money and little to no sense? Given the level of ridicule and distrust, I’d prefer to keep myself out of the loop and not get pegged for “altering” the text or whatever. Two, I went and got a direct URL to a comments form so Pat could directly voice her opinion and leave a form of contact for a reply. She’d already written the letter, I found the form. Teamwork!
joey, again take your race-baiting elsewhere. race baiting is racist in case you didn’t know, and we don’t tolerate racism here, so cut it out or go somewhere else
Obama is a Muslim? I hadn’t heard that.
In fact, I’m quite sure Hillary said he wasn’t. So I’ll believe her and not joey t. roll
Gary, we all ready need to take a course on “Obama Math” :
http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/05/21/obama-math/
What really kills me about the average Obama troll is that they really don’t think about what they’re saying (typing as the case may be). Either they really are delusional enough to think that Obama can win without the largest demographic groups in the U.S., OR they think that doling out adolescent-type insults is somehow going to convert us to their side.
Two of my favorites (swiped from the No Quarter comments this morning) are:
Obama Troll #1: “People in WV and KY are ignorant, racist hicks. They don’t care who their voting for as long as it isn’t a black man.”
Way to go, Obama Troll #1. Obviously, you didn’t waste any time learning about tact and diplomacy. What candidate wouldn’t be proud to have you representing him or her?
Obama Troll #2: “There are obviously a lot of people here with low intelligence. Go back to your meaningless 9 to 5 jobs and let the smart people run this country.”
All righty, then. Obama Troll #2, are you too dense to realize that you just insulted the vast majority of people in this country? I’m sorry. I’ve got to say this. What a stupid sh*t!
If everyone who supports Obama is pretty much like what I’ve encountered on the internet, then you can definitely count me out of that camp. I don’t want any of what they have rubbing off on me.
jules…I was saying that all night. I like the math that shows that she erased his gain in NC (O+225K ) in Kentucky (C+250K) with half the voters! 1.5 million in NC vs 600K in KY.
Boston Boomer, you do a great job here. Plus I love your handle seeing as I’m dorchester born and bred.
Another great AA saying that I love is “easy does it.” simple but true. You seem to embody that in your posts/comments. The calm resolve of hillary supporters, and of Hillary herself, stands in such stark contrast to the ravings and hysterisis of obamabots.
Easy does it is how you win in the longterm, in the long run. It is how we will win this election.
Ryan,
I found your comment in with the spam and more comments in moderation. It seems that a lot of comments are getting tagged because of the topic of the discussion–racism and sexism.
Murphy,
Thanks a lot for the kind words. I love “easy does it,” too. I definitely think Hillary has learned a lot of those tricks for staying grounded. It might be what I find so likeable about her. I’m not from Boston originally, but I moved here in 1967. I’ll never be a native, though. It doesn’t seem to work that way.
Lucinda: though it’s tempting, please don’t tar us all with the same brush! I’ve noticed you guys boot racists from here pretty quickly, which is awesome — but they’re still Hillary supporters. Much as this blog doesn’t want to be associated with that sort, I’ve got plenty of Obama supporters (including the group whose operative noun appears to be “bitch”) who I’ve seen post and thought “oh, that’s hideous”.
I have resigned myself to the fact that if Hillary is not the Democratic nominee, McCain will be the next President.
What can’t be cured, must be endured.
….that smiley was _completely_ unexpected, and sends TOTALLY the wrong message, especially in that post! It’s meant to just close the parentheses. Stupid emoticons…
Yes, Gary, so true. I really enjoy your posts, by the way.
grateful cub, you are dead wrong. Obama will lose this thing because of the confluence vote. Hundreds of thousands of democrats read this blog and ones just like it every day.
Millions and millions of democratic voters refuse to vote for Barack Obama every time there is a primary election. They know who they are voting for and who they are voting against. Hillary is turning out millions of democrats who want Obama to get out of this race.
We will win; he will lose. even if he gets the nomination by cheating he will lose.
Barack Obama for the Democrats, Losing By Winning!
—I completely see the point about 90% of AA’s voting for Obama. But, in my humble opinion, voting for someone of your ethnicity is a bit less racist than voting against someone because of his. Not excusable, but easier for me to understand.—-
Grateful, that’s total BS. You yourself are making assumptions based on race for this analysis. It proves the point that the question about “race being a factor” is meaningless. One could argue, for example, that sexism is rampant in the African American community, and they voted against Hillary because she’s a woman. I don’t make that argument, however, because it is silly and specious, but is the very same one that you use to assume why these people voted for Hillary.
Alright, the obama trolls have got me sounding like an obamaton.
I will stop now.
Esp, since Ella’s last, about the very logical reasons why it would be impossible for her to inform her compadres of the rational and persuasive objections of a democrat whose vote they want to win over was utterly incoherent to me.
but that’s just bitter, clingy, uneducated, racist, hillbilly me!
For all those who wnat to know something about Obama math, here are some highlights:
Obama = 1
Clinton = 666
Democratic Party / Obama = 2
USA – (Fl + MI) = 270
Kerry + Dukkakis + Pelosi = 0
50 = 57
Democratic Party – (Working Class Voters + Latinos + Women + Gays) = Democratic Party + Disaffected Republicans
Lim Nov-Time / Obama’s support = 0
Nov-Time->0
Brillian!!!
Loved it!!!
Especially the warning on the first link “about to enter Obama fairyland!” Thank you, I by-passed it!
Hillary or McCain in 2008! Tread with caution in Clinton Democrats though – I just ran into the second pro-Obama posting. I don’t want to accuse them just yet, but it’s enough to have caution. The first one was taken off I believe, but the second one is called “are we democrats for real” and is totally about party unity. Again, Tread With Caution!!! Just and FYI to be aware!!
We might be missing an important point here with regard to those who are visiting this site as Obama supporters.
On most of those other blogs you can be certain that if you come out in favor of Hillary, or say something reasonably intelligent in her defense, the opposition comes after you like sharks in the water. You can almost tell that these commentators do not represent a CEO or a PHD for the most part, their rancor is based soley on who can shove the hardest with their language or retort. I had yet to see one response in a discourse, no matter what the topic, where Bill and his flaws was not brought in to the argument no matter what topic the original post was based. Like high schoolers at a basketball game calling across the court in defense of the home team.
The visitors to this blog, granted there were exceptions, seem to want to get into our heads. Perhaps now they are looking at the volume of voters who care deeply about the issues and our candidate. After rereading the comments, the Confucians are better able to lay out their arguments with fact and figures in proving a point. Try finding that reasonableness and intelligent thesis elsewhere. It hardly exists.
Maybe we do owe them the explanation that seals the deal for us. It would be wishful thinking that either side now can hope to sway the other but a reasonable dialogue which we pride ourselves as having at least serves to our benefit as much as theirs. Thoughts?
Hillary is on Fox News and CNN right now talking about voting rights from Florida.
I’ve had a couple of informative face to face interactions with Obama workers before he began this run — but clearly not before he began thinking of it. The arrogance and elitism was present several years ago when I called to question BO’s vote re:C Rice for Sec’y of State. His office people hung up on me when I posited that the vote could not possible have been based on her past experience or her qualifications. Immediately the person on the phone questioned my intelligence and my “real reason” for calling. Once I went to a townhall meeting in which BO was supposedly taking questions from the audience. He did, but he chose not to answer several of the questions….One, significantly was about getting us out of Iraq. Another was about his votes supporting the funding of the war. A third question he refused to answer with anyt houghtful response related to the cost of gas and our dependence on foreign oil. Again – he refused to respond to anything outside of the issues he raised in his brief comments to the audience of his Illinois constituents. When he did respond, he filibustered like those republicans who have been called to testify before Congress. Thus very few people could ask questions. I believe that in the course of 1.5 – 2 hours, he answered only 8 questions. It was insulting. When I raised this as a question with one of his aides, I was told we were lucky to have been in the meeting.
I am going to tell you that I am a clean, decent looking, (for the most part) articulate, intelligent, woman who is respectful toward everyone. I was not treated in kind. I’ve not been supportive of Obama since the townhall meeting. One other thing….
I worked and was friends with a woman who was a huge BO fan. She had volunteered in his campaign office when he was running for IL state legislature. She is an intelligent, beautiful, elegant black woman with personality and a sense of commitment and energy that I have long admired. When she left here, she was just 60 years old. Her retirement goal was to dedicate her time working for BO to get him elected to the US Senate. She volunteered in his downtown office and was happily working there until the day when all the “older women” were advised their help was no longer needed and she/they were sent out to be replaced with young, white, college educated people. She was thrown under the same bus with all the other expendables in his warehouse of believers. Only this was several years ago.
His behavior isn’t news to me. And my feelings for him won’t change no matter what he does and no matter how “sincere” his reach.
Pat, I was outright banned from Crooks and Liars for daring to criticize Olbermann (in a polite way–I just pointed out he made fun of a teenager, sanjaya) when he said something nasty about Hillary (can’t remember now, there have been so many) I don’t care what they do here actually. If they want to report back to the Orange Satan’s of the nets than I hope the message they’re getting is that there is no more talking. Obama is unacceptable. We cannot be swayed. at least I hope that’s what they get
grateful–then don’t you see how doing the same thing to Clinton voters is so wrong? I mean you just made the case against yourself
thanks BB!!! she’s great, standing up for FL voters! yeah
Ryan:
Don’t twist our words. I am a Hillary supporter. I know that if Obama is the nominee, he will lose in November to John McCain. That will be unfortunate.
I will not vote for John McCain because he is even more unqualified than Barack Obama.
Appeals to party unity by Obama and his fans don’t mean jack shit after the last six months.
central governing rule of this country. when we can understand the intent of the voter, the vote should count! GO HILLARY!!!!
using florida supreme court 2000 decision as precedent….awesome!!! can’t wait to see barry argue against that
Like I said Pat, you are a nicer person than I. You are right of course. But, I stick by my assertion that if obama supporters have come here to learn what makes us tick and why we support Hillary, then welcome! They can lurk and learn.
Their counter-arguments are weak and boring. They amount to threats. “You’ll be sorry!”
Nope, I wont be sorry when I vote for McCain if Obama lets the DNC hand him the nomination. I will work, donate, and vote for McCain. My kids say i cant put a mccain sign in the front yard because they will DIE of shame if I do, and I love them and dont want them to die, so I will put signs in my neighbors’ yards.
This isnt petulance. This is political pragmatism. The democratic party will die forever if we allow a palace coup by Dean and Brazile and Obama in which they cut out and discard the working class, female, senior, immigrant, glbt, and union base. Those 6 groups may sound like a disparate coalition, but in my smallish extended family alone we have several representatives of every single one of them, including working class african-american.
Pat: If you wanna talk to them, go ahead.
Gary,
Then let me clarify. I am in no way saying that a white man named barry o’smith wouldn’t have lost to Clinton in kentucky. She has positives going for her, especially in appalachia (clinton economy, his visits there, etc.). My point was, Obama has an appalachian problem. he will continue to have one. he needs to spend time there to mitigate it as much as he can, but it is a long uphill struggle. There are race factors involved. I have seen those factors up close my entire life, it doesn’t make me a racist to point them out. Again, my entire point was that Obama is going to have a problem in appalachia. Part of it by his own making, he isn’t perfect (I’m not a maoist). Part of it is not his own fault. Just as Hillary can’t be blamed for being a woman (which is an electoral issue with some voters).
But, I can’t put a number on the black/woman issue as % points. Nor would I try. 1 in 5 saying race is an issue was embarrassing to me. Not that I can know what each of those voters were thinking, but I don’t think race being an issue is a positive thing.
gary: Absolutely. So many of my frequented blogs are inundated now with these Hillary haters that it is almost impossible to post a different point of view in even the most polite way. This blog continues to amaze me for the depth of knowledge and the eagerness to share information without just turning it into a one way street of support. We all recognize Hillary’s flaws but we can overlook them as she has given us an example of what matters to most Americans and how she handles herself with such grace and dignity when I would have just quit had it been me.
The posters on this blog are incredible in their intelligence. I have learned so much from just being here. And though we get ” snarky” at times the core element is the deep commitment we have for inclusivity and respect for what this party stood (stands) for overall. If I can still be educated at this stage of my life it is not too much to assume others can as well.
they (voters) should not be punished for doing their civic duty…right on!!!!
myiq2xu, I’ll try my best not too. That post however, was not made by “me.” I want my name back dude…
Murph: I won’t vote for Mcstain, but I live in California, so my vote won’t matter.
If Big Smoggy becomes a swing state, Obama will be getting creamed elsewhere, so even if he wins here it won’t be enough.
In that scenario Calif would be the difference between Mondale or Dukakis level defeat.
that was an awesome speech. “In this Democratic Party, the voters rule”!!!!!!!!!!!!
leslie, that is a terrible story. I hated reading it.
The guy’s a jerk, and he really has some serious issues with regard to respecting women. Young women he flirts with (sweetie, cellphone, sweetie again, offering kisses), older women he disappears (mother, grandmother, alice paul, your friend)
sheesh!
myiq2xu: Your comment almost sounds like one of them at me.
[...] Riverdaughter (warning: if you don’t like the pocket guide, you will really not like this; if you ever had a delusion that I was a pro-Clinton blogger, just read that link and that blog – [...]
miq2xu, I live in Mass so my vote shouldnt matter either, but we’re a little weird here. McCain is seen by many as one of those “reasonable” republicans that we have a tendency to elect, like Bill Weld (I loved him) and Mitt Romney hated him!)
It would be beyond hillarious if McCain made Mass a swing state and my vote for obama became important to him. Hillarious!
There are a lot of us MA voters on this blog!
Pat, you wrote:
Pat, you are such a nice person, but I’m a little more cynical than you are. When I first started trying to talk to Obama supporters at DK, I would choose the ones who sounded “reasonable” and “logical,” and and ask them why they were supporting Obama. If they were actually willing to engage with me, I kept track of them, initially because I thought they would be a resource for information about Obama. As time went on, I saw these same commenters become just like the other abusive Obamadroids at DK. They would answer questions, but any sign of disagreement or criticism of Obama, and that was it. And over time, their attitudes hardened.
I don’t know what the motives are for these people who are showing up here. They could tell us if they wanted to. But I’m not wasting my time giving log explanations. That’s what Obama wants–for us to be distracted form taking action for Hillary. Most people have made up their minds by now. I know I can never be convinced to vote for Obama. So what do they want from me? I don’t care. I’m not going to waste a lot of time and energy talking to them. It’s too late in the process, IMHO.
thats because people in Massachusetts are so dang smart!
I meant alice palmer, not Alice Paul, as one of the older women disappeared by obama. That wasnt smart of me! Guess I just have the national womans party on my mind today.
Ha! Yes, tons of MA voters here. Can anyone guess why?
bb: You are correct. I was mellowing out here for awhile thinking that perhaps there was some enlightenment we could offer in exchange for civility. It is more than likely a hopeless endeavor. Okay, for the record, and because I respect my bostonboomer, I am reverting to my old snarky self!
There could be a video of Obama dressed in a burka and riding bareback with Michael Jackson through Neverland and the press would write of his exceptional taste in shoes.
Hi Pat, maybe so. I think there was a list of FrenchDoc “demands” that could flip to be what we like about Hillary.
I would also point out Gallup polling makes it pretty clear that WOMEN (not hillbillies) are the big problem for obama. Suggesting the racist meme in defense of sexism is unfounded. Enough women don’t like obama to make a difference in his electability.
Also, according to Gallup, white men in general like McCain better regardless of who we nominate. The link to this is in the comments of the previous post – if anyone is interested enough.
Pat,
Again, I am in awe of your intelligence and basic decency.
Of course it’s possible that some people who support Obama can be educated. But how do we know if they are open to it or if they are even paid operatives? As for what you said about the posters at The Confluence, that is exactly how I used to feel about DK. And most of us came from there. DK no longer sounds intelligent, inclusive, and respectful. Interesting, isn’t it.?
Melanie: Why?
Boston boomer, well said. I won’t be distracted from working for Hillary. I’ll be in dc to protest the dnc on may 31st.
with Florida and Michigan she will win the nomination fair and square, then we can focus on November.
I am probably one of the most strident commenters on this site, but I don’t insult people unless they are playing games and/or being intellectually dishonest.
Anybody who finds their way to this blog, and claims they haven’t seen evidence of Obama playing the race card is fair game in my opinion.
No one you who gets here hasn’t been following the race closely.
murphy,
I thought maybe you knew someone named alice paul who had also been thrown under that bus.
It’s getting pretty crowded under that bus. But at least my friend is in good company.
murphy,
I just wish I could go. But I’m really on a tight budget at the moment and have to get to work on my doctoral dissertation. I have really been goofing off since the end of the Spring semester!
Its a magic bus , though.
Mawm,
My sentiments, exactly! Anyone who claims they haven’t seen the race baiting and the misogyny is either oblivious or deliberately obtuse. They could watch just one of those video complilations of the the crap that has been thrown at Hillary and be educated if they were open to it. They’re not.
Yeah, I wonder why all the MA voters are here? Could it be we like Hillary in MA? As I keep saying, Obama is not going to carry Massachusetts. And if he can’t carry Massachusetts, he’s in big trouble.
murphy-I’m going to be there on the 31st too. Conflucians who can make it should plan to meet. I used to live in DC so i know the city well….just don’t know where they’re meeting yet!
mawm — absolutely true. You are one of the best commenters here (admittedly it is a long list). You wouldnt be one of the best if you were insulting, dismissive, arrogant, rude, or offensive.
magic bus — haha!
we want to try to actually get into the committee meeting. Would be cool to live blog
I think I just wrote a “coffin nail” on Labor, RD & Co. Please, fling it far and wide. It has to do with Maytag, the company— and what O has plans to do to American Labor. Hillary can run ads on this–VERY IMPORTANT to American psyche. The Maytag Man, no? He’s one of ours.
xxoo! go Gary, go!
Look, don’t get me wrong, I like Deval Patrick(as a person), but so far an ineffective Governor and his casinos “jobs program” came straight out of Chicago, so my theory is we have seen the textbook Axelrod campaign before, and Obama is a weak replica.
BB: the spring semester ended like what, two days ago? That’s some serious slacking dude!
I’m trying to scare up enough people in the boston area to share a bus. I can get five people from my friends/family.
We could share expenses. I may be able to tap into a travel account and make it really cheap.
It’s only 2 days! You could use the experience in you dissertation! Unless it’s about molecular chemistry or something.
I really want to go on May 31st, but I think I am about the only yella dawg in Greenville and not sure I can do it without carpooling.
LOL! No, I finished grading papers last Monday, and I’m still slacking a week and a half later.
I would love to be in that room just to stare down Donna B.
I’m also a MA voter.
(I am NOT a paid operative, though.)
greenville….what state? I think everyone has one…lol
Actually… if BO cannot carry MA I think it will at long last expose the strong undercurrent of racism in that state.
I had a huge, i mean huge, sign for Deval Patrick on my front lawn. I like the guy too. I really like his wife. But he IS inexperienced as a politician and this has hurt his agenda and his effectiveness.
It bugs the hell out of me that he was such and early and vocal Obama supporter. I understand his personal loyalty to his friend, but he had a public responsibility to keep the Massachusetts democratic party unified, and he has utterly failed at that. Maybe divisions were inevitable, but they didnt need to be so deep and so permanent.
I meant it, though! The reason a lot of us Obama people are here is because we don’t get the vow to vote McCain if Clinton’s not the nominee.
Reason number one:
Obama wants to destroy the Democratic party.
Oh, I know his supporters think of it as reform. But I don’t.
I am horrified at how they are pushing out all the things that first drew me to the Republican party – I am here because the party does traditionally stand up for the working class, the poor, the gays & lesbians, Latinos, etc. and the values of social cooperation and fair play and so forth. So when Obama pushes that stuff out, why would I vote for him just because he has a (D), after that letter no longer means anything good?
If you want to run as a Democrat, then look out for me, and look out for the other Democrats. Look out for our interests, and we’ll vote for you. What about that is so hard to understand?
Reason Number Two:
I seriously believe McCain would be better – for me, for the country, in every way. (I’m sorry, Hillary, but I can’t follow you on this one.)
Yes, I do have a serious problem with McCain. But I have an even bigger problem with Obama. Seriously.
LOL I meant Democratic party
I actually had something originally about being horrified by the Republican party.
But you know – I don’t share the belief that ‘republian” is a dirty word.
Oh Ryan, put a sock in it. Really.
divide, divide, divide.
it is rule number one in the republican playbook.
why do obamatrons know it by heart?
sorry you have such difficulty respecting anyone else’s opinion.
you seem to have the same false sense of entitlement that your candidate has.. good luck with your anger.
———————
yes I’m seeking psychological help. Thanks for the concern.
gary that would be great! is the meeting on the 30th or the 31st?
murphy-its on the 31st. I think the protest is scheduled to coincide witht he meeting. that’s why they haven’t said where yet. DNC hasn’t announced location of the meeting yet. But I believe it is 7am sat 5/31
“I have people compare Obama to Hitler on my blog and I don’t censor their comments unless it’s profane.”
Goodwin’s law?
seems joey slipped back to stage 2…..sad
Ryan,
“Actually… if BO cannot carry MA I think it will at long last expose the strong undercurrent of racism in that state.”
This is ridiculous. Are you honestly accusing me of voting for Hillary and not for Obama because I am a racist? Give me a break. I voted FOR Hillary. Hell, I wanted to be for Obama. I thought it would be wonderful to have a black President. But I did my research, I listened to what he had to say, and I decided he is a bad candidate and is not qualified for the job. If anything, I gave him a closer look because I wanted to like him.
I’ve got a news flash for you: there is a strong undercurrent of racism in every state in the union, and there is an undercurrent of racism in every individual in this country. It’s unavoidable because of our history. We are constantly focusing in race in this country. As white people we lose awareness of our privileged status–based only on skin color–and have to remind ourselves of the truth.
There are people who won’t vote for Obama because of race, and there are people who are voting for him because of race (both black and white voters). It’s complex.
But what you just said is outrageous. You need to stop and think if you really think it helps your candidate or to accuse people of being racists just because they like another candidate better.
no, ella, you’re an unpaid operative.
I’m a Hillary supporter and volunteer. If I were an operative I would be over on the obama blogs trying to ruin their day.
Ryan, I hate to keep sayint this, but race baiting like your last comment is a form of racism. We don’t tolerate racism here so cut it out.
Anybody from the south going up? We can carpool.
joey,
As RD has said repeatedly, free speech is not a given at The Confluence. This is a blog that has a specific purpose. There are plenty of other blogs where you can go and express your feelings and opinions. If anything goes on your blog, that’s your choice. We try to keep it civil here.
kim, where are you, did you see my last post? greenville, what state? we’re going and we’re in NC
Ryan,
MA has an AA Governor. GIve it a rest racist.
Let’s meet up conflucians!
the visual on the Michael Jackson comment is just too good!
I hope you’ve read my response by now, Ryan. Oh, and BTW, racist MA elected the first black Senator and the first black governor since reconstruction. And now I’m going to delete your comment.
Boston Boomer I am applauding you!! I am in Greenvillle, SC right around the corner from Bob Jones, now there is something for Ryan. SC went for Obama and is known for its (sorry) racism, confederate flags. It is not the state, it is the policies and whether anyone wants to admit it, Boston Boomer is correct. There are people out there who will not vote for him because of his race. Sad, but true. But you can’t start accusing anyone and everyone of racism, simply because they like another candidate better.
Maybe the better question is why did you vote for him, which policy pushed you over the edge for him? Which piece of legislation made you think he was better qualified?
Why do they need to “get” why we won’t vote for Obama? According to them and everyone else they have “won.” We have ‘lost.”
So go raise your money and round up your young people and be done with it. According to Zogby you have this thing in the bag. So get lost.
Ben,
They need our votes. When they were beating up on us, they were having so much fun they forgot about that. Now they are trying to fix the damage. But it’s too little, too late. A lot of us didn’t even like Hillary until Obama supporters were so rude to us that we gave her a chance. That’s what happened to me anyway.
BB: I think there are two Ryans posting – the one that has been around a while and a newer and ruder one.
I have two mixed race grandchildren and I was told by an Obamaniac, that I was a racist and didn’t get to chose my grandchildren. Pushed me a little over the edge.
Hi Kim, I have LOTS of family in Greenville and Greer.
I endured through NPRs segment today w/ Emily’s List and NARAL ..?North America on “talk of the nation”(?) what a bunch of idiots. Anywho, Ken Rudin (sp?) is a total asswipe, he had the nerve to say everyone’s accepted that Barry is going to be the nominee, everyone except Bill nad Hillary. Then the NARAL gal stated what we’ve heard before about “when’s the right time to endorse? Now? May 31st? June 3rd? We decided that all democrats have to get behind Barry”. Then there was a caller who was a republican woman saying she very much wants to vote for Hillary but will vote for McCain if she’s not on the ballot. After she hung up, they all beat her up for not backing the democrat no matter what. Give me a break. Sexist pigs and weaklings. Aaaargh!
Oh really? I didn’t know that. If so, then I apologize to the “nice” Ryan. The “new” Ryan needs to modify his handle.
Nice post over at TL
[new] What the hell is a caucus strategy (none / 0) (#14)
by Edgar08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:19:00 PM EST
Anyway?
Targetting people with lots of free time?
Making anyone at the event who doesn’t support Clinton feel unwelcome?
Is that what Obama was good at?
**************************
Good strategy, sounds familiar doesn’t it.
Check out these statistics from Jeralyn at TL:
We need Garychapelhill and RonKseattle to opine on this.
{{The sound you hear is me beating my head on the keyboard.}}
What was I thinking that a civil discourse would be illuminating? Some of these comments coming from the other camp are ridiculous! Must go back to my days as a Mom when I taught my kids to always listen to the other point of view. We elected a black governor in the state of MA for God’s sake! We elected one of the first black senators to congress in Ed Brooke years ago! Boston played a major role in the underground railroad during slavery! We have our drawbacks but we are not altogether backward. Give me a break!
Hi jjmtacoma. Nice to meet you. I think everyone has family and friends here, except me.
garyinchapelhill – would you have room for another and when would you be leaving and returning?
BB, me too. I was an Edwards supporter, then I wanted to vote for Obama.
What got me was the sexist rush to get her to quit right before New Hampshire. That radicalized me overnight.
It’s not Obama’s fault that the media and pundits exposed their misogyny so early and so virulently, but, as Pat J movingly pointed out upthread, he has never, not once acted like a leader and denounced the misogyny and sexism. He has played into the hands of woman-haters and made a deal with the devil. By silently letting this crap slide he made it clear whose side he’s NOT on. He thought the sexism would work in his favor. That’s why he kept his mouth shut. He was dead wrong. He can throw all the women under the bus. But, there are so many of us under it we will pick it up and move it off the road to a permanent rest stop.
OK, anyone see MO’s outfit from last night? Not a bad color and I like the classic lines but what the heck was with the belt buckle? Is it a corporate seal? Is it a superhero activation device? You decide.
Elixir,
FYI: I think Ken Rudin is the guy who compared Hillary to Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction.
sorry for the tortured metaphor. i like it here under the magic bus. all my favorite people are here!
grandmas, mothers, gay people, immigrants, union workers, college drop-outs and people who are working their asses off to get back to school.
“Actually… if BO cannot carry MA I think it will at long last expose the strong undercurrent of racism in that state.”–Ryan
Insane. We have an african american Governor who won in a landslide.
“Actually… if BO cannot carry MA I think it will at long last expose the strong undercurrent of racism in that state.”–Ryan
Actually, it will mean the wrong person is running.
kim, I’m near durham, on 85, so we’re on the way for you
Riverdaughter,
You know I have had faith in you and your blog from Day One. But it’s been amazing even to me how rapidly it has taken off.
I remember quite leisurely putting up links in the comments. Now the thread is about 100-200 comments long when I get to it. WELL DONE!
Anyhow, I hope you see this video, and perhaps put it up. It’s Hillary’s speech in Florida and no one could have said it better. The pundit comes back at the end and gets a dig in, but the speech itself is simply AMAZING.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/24758377#24760559
Wow! I pulled this off Yahoo news:
Obama spent $36.4 million over the course of the month (April) — about $4 million more than he raised during the same time — as he tried to sew up the nomination. Despite outspending Clinton in Pennsylvania and Indiana, he lost both contests.
That is just SOOOO much money!
Do you have room and when will you be leaving?
Kim, we are leaving Fri night and have room. we haven’t made final plans though. what are your plans?
I can do whatever, just need to tell work when I am leaving and Friday the 30th is my early day to leave.
Brillaint.
I should read before I hit submit. “basically exactly” is an idiotic combination of words. Right up there with “somewhat unique”.
“sorry you have such difficulty respecting anyone else’s opinion.
you seem to have the same false sense of entitlement that your candidate has.. good luck with your anger.”
What happened to “respectful” joey t?
I am so frustrated with all this, she has the numbers, she has the policies, the experience. Why can’t the DNC, the superdelegates and MSM see that she is the most electable, viable candidate?
Why do they think we are malleable and will just meekly say okay, sweetie, we will vote your way, even though our candidate has been trashed and treated in a way that no other candidate has ever been treated? Is it because a lot of us are women? Are we truly the “sweetie brigade”?
Whoa. Leave to make a PowerPoint and Pat’s forced to rescind the deal. Sorry, Pat! Can I still have (revokable) amnesty?
–OK, anyone see MO’s outfit from last night? Not a bad color and I like the classic lines but what the heck was with the belt buckle? Is it a corporate seal? Is it a superhero activation device? You decide.–
I figured someone had gone wild with a Bedazzler; took me aback a bit, too. Maybe one of her daughters made it?
(murphy: I’m not getting directions in what to say, so I guess operative is off the table, too. So now I’m just unpaid.)
Is jacilyn still around? I’m curious as to what the Democratic party is doing to push out the working class and social concerns — I was attracted to it recently because I thought it was more socially-conscious, so would be interested in how it’s changed over the years. (Not as far back as Reconstruction, but within the past 30.)
Kim, I’m proud to be part of the sweetie brigade.
it’s a good name for us. grandmothers, mothers, glbt people, aunts, sisters, union guys, immigrants, italians, rural people, community and state college grads or almost-grads, jewish people. People like us really ARE sweeties, even if Obama meant it as an insult.
The sweetie brigade will NOT be voting for Obama if he is (under)handed the nomination.
ella, you might have more success with your power point presentations than you will here. I wish lambert were around to talk about process types.
You are still an operative. You are on a Clinton blog trolling. That makes you an operative.
personally, I try never to comment on people’s appearances other than to compliment them. I find it demeaning. I would never make fun of anyone’s appearance though. It’s marginally sexist as well. Michelle Obama can dress however the hell she wants. I think her fashion style is lovely and flattering to her. She is a professional woman in a political campaign. How she dresses is junior high type commentary.
Why do they think we are malleable and will just meekly say okay, sweetie, we will vote your way, even though our candidate has been trashed and treated in a way that no other candidate has ever been treated? Is it because a lot of us are women? Are we truly the “sweetie brigade”?
I think we’re just being out-played, politically speaking. I really believe that high-powered interests are pushing buttons in this campaign. It’s too like Rove, isn’t it?
Whatever started this, I am quite sure it is no accident that the Democratic party is splitting and attacking each other.
Someone is applying pressure at just the right points, and the Democratic party is splitting down its well-known fault line.
The problem is, the fault line is real. I really am disillusioned to find that the Obama wing of the party really thinks so little of me, my people – and my nonnegotiable values.
I can’t say I understand their nonnegotiable values, either.
It is very Rovian and I too will proudly be part of the “sweetie brigade”. However, I am not malleable, ask any of my ex-husbands.
I worked as a Poverty Law Advocate for 10 years and know that the Democratic Party stood for something for the very people that the Obamaites are pushing away and calling “hillbillies, rednecks and racists”. I just feel now that the my party, the one I have fought for, missed time from work for, divorced over and raised my children to believe in, has actually become an elitist shell of what it used to be. I tried to convince someone that even if the gas tax didn’t work, for some people the $.18 a gallon at ten gallons meant a loaf of bread for some people, but they don’t understand that, they can’t imagine that a few dollars means a family may eat that week.
Is jacilyn still around? I’m curious as to what the Democratic party is doing to push out the working class and social concerns —
wow now I know why they say it is harder to write a postcard than a novel – the very very short answer: he’s been very insensitive and the various comments indicate that our interests are no longer relevant to (his) party.
sorry elixir, didn’t mean to mix u up with today’s concern troll. You are extremely funny and I love your comments here and at correntewire.
It doesn’t sit right me when women are ridiculed for their appearance. Men either. But chris Matthews and others are masters at belittling professional women by referring to their relative attractiveness to HIM. Gets my goat.
Murphy: I really don’t fit the definition of trolling. I don’t think I’ve slandered (or libeled, depending on how you frame blog postings) your candidate, or taunted your members. “Insufferable”, sure, I’ll even throw up my hands with “operative”, but not really a troll by the book.
As for sexist commentary on people’s attire… I was just responding to Elixir’s comment (noted by the emdashes). I like Michelle Obama’s style, and the belt buckle was eye-catching. So I really don’t know where you get sexist and junior high. If her daughters made her a belt buckle, I think it’s nice?
Jacilyn, how can you think Obama’s people don’t care about what you think when Obama supporters come here and try to talk to you? Not convert — find out what bothers you about him. That’s why I’m here, I actually care about finding out what’s caused the seeming Dem split.
“Anyone who claims they haven’t seen the race baiting and the misogyny is either oblivious or deliberately obtuse.”
I spend time on lots of pro-Hillary sites, and the only use of racial epithets and language I have seen has been by Obama supporters claiming that we think/talk that way. (that, and the occasional “gone in 60 seconds” troll who gets deleted by a sitemon if they make it past the spam filter)
Hillary supporters aren’t racists, which makes perfect sense because neither are Hillary of Bill. Although we snarkily call ourselves racists sometimes, we’re not, which is what makes that accusation so offensive.
The whole meme that Hillary and her supporters are racists started at the top of the Obama campaign. They did intentionally in order to win.
To me, that’s the political equivilent of falsely accusing your ex-spouse of child molestation to win custody. It’s down and dirty, and there ain’t no forgiving or forgetting.
kim, welcome to the sweetie brigade! I’ll take your word on your non-malleability and pass on talking to your exes, I’m sure there are good reasons they are in the ex column!
your description of your experience as an obama volunteer was very troubling to me. Sounds like it was for you too.
I’m glad you’re carpooling with garych– see u in dc!
Apparently I’m being “moderated”
I don’t want to be no *#$@%^& moderate!
I’m a DFH liberal.
You’re a concern troll, ella.not the worst kind of troll, but not good either.
your concern about the rift in the party has been noted.
it is rawther irrelevant though, and mostly serves to distract and or wear us down.
The divide was caused by Obama and the DNC refusing to take an unequivocal stand against the rampant misogyny and hatred that continues to be used to this day to force Hillary out of the race. If obama had said anything, and I mean anything, like what PatJ said earlier, to muzzle the woman-hating dogs in this campaign, I would have admired him immensely. I would vote for him in november if he had stood up for women even once. He made a deal with the devil and kept silent about the hatred bc he thought it would work in his favor. He was dead wrong. He created the sweetie brigade with his cowardice and callousness. This divide is of his making, and we won’t back down.
TrudyQ, I don’t hate him, I really don’t. When I campaigned for him, I wanted to believe the message. I wanted to think that we were beyond racism. I am the grandmother of two bi-racial children. I wanted to tell them as much as I want to tell my future granddaughters, that anyone can be President. But I found out different. That is what took me away from the Obama camp. He is, at this time, unelectable. It was the baiting and the name calling and being accused of being racist that finally “did me in.” I was called everything in the book and what these people did not know is that I am one-half native american. Talk about oppression, go see your grandmother on a reservation and get back to me. I had high hopes we could go Hillary now, and maybe Obama later. (BTW there is a website named that). But they chased me away, tried to make me feel stupid and the only truly ignorant thing that I see, is that no one is hearing the loud roar of the voters out there, and “sweetie” they are proving my point loud and clear.
put a sock in it trudyq
My biggest concern at one point is that we would lose touch with the real issues, environmental warming, the two wars with no end, the housing crisis, the lost middle class and become bogged down with a racial divide that would set us back years and it will happen, whether he wins the nomination or not; because if he wins the nomination and loses the Presidency (will happen) or loses the nomination and Hil wins (will happen, I pray), there is a faction out there that will see it as a racist statement. They will say it was stolen from the black man and relations will be set back for years to come.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll#Concern_troll
Inaccurate when applied to me, but whatever.
Obama’s said very positive things about Hillary in general — true, he hasn’t come out and made a speech about misogyny, but I wonder if it would have worked. When the Wright/black preacher thing started to spiral, Obama spoke about race, but I think it would have been really presumptuous of him to step into Hillary’s battle and start lecturing people about how to treat her. It’d come off as paternalistic and patronizing.
oh, no, not the wiki
They have not said positive things about Hillary..
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0308/Axelrod_They_are_literally_willing_to_do_anything.html
you damn him with faint praise ella. your tortured logic does him no good. it makes him look worse than he is, if possible.
no big speech was necessary. a blog post, an email to supporters, a response during a town hall, a mention in a press conference. any public statement of his disgust with sexist and hateful caricatures of a distinguished senate colleague would have been all it took for this democrat to admire him and support his nomination if he wins it fair and square.
he gave her the finger on tv, mimicked JayZ’s “99 problems (but a bitch aint one)” rap video, did not disown his pastor’s despicable descriptions of her, called her likeable enough, emotionally fragile, and allowed his wife to trash her as a bad wife.
Yes indeed, the wiki! But only because UrbanDictionary’s blocked at work for being “unsuitable”
dar1a g, “They are literally willing to do anything” doesn’t strike me as particularly out of bounds in politics, especially when referring to what the other side sees as “an opportunistic way of counting votes”. I saw Clinton’s point in protesting an Iowa coronation the other night, too (though for me, not giving Obama any votes in Michigan’s a biiig issue).
Jacilyn, how can you think Obama’s people don’t care about what you think when Obama supporters come here and try to talk to you? Not convert — find out what bothers you about him. That’s why I’m here, I actually care about finding out what’s caused the seeming Dem split.
Economic policies.
It really is that simple.
What is he going to do to raise our standard of living? He is going to give us a Republican economic advisor.
Murphy, thank you for this! I’ve truly been wondering about how the brush-off thing was being classed as “sexist”. It’s actually off of a music video called “Dirt Off My Shoulder” — nothing to do with 99 Problems, other than it being the same artist.
The finger is harder — the crowd certainly reacted as though he had, but I don’t think he did, both fingers were by his face and he used the middle finger to scratch. As for the pastor and michelle, I’ll admit I’m not aware of those instances and will look them up. Is “emotionally fragile” the “when she’s feeling down” comment?
And the “likeable enough” thing was something I knew he’d get into trouble for, but I was watching and felt Clinton’s “that hurts my feelings” was being drawn out and a little treacly. I thought it was wry, but I do understand why people were ticked by it, certainly.
But I still don’t think there’s any way that Barack Obama could’ve come out with any sort of scolding message about misogyny. He’s praised Clinton about being groundbreaking and talented, which she is, but I’m guessing his campaign decided this was her battle to fight and getting into the middle of it would result in fire from all sides. That does NOT excuse the rest of the Democratic establishment from shying away, but that might be a combination of what happened with Ferraro and the fact that the party leadership, Bill Clinton, is partisan on this one and everyone else is being as careful as possible.
For Obama specifically, jumping into the sexism conversation would have been no-win. And, again, even I would have found it paternalistic and off-putting.
What the working class wants:
1. living wage
2. universal health care
3. every American student who works hard and plays by the rules can get a college education without having to fear running out of financial aid or debts that can’t be paid back within a reasonable amount of time
4. social security intact and functioning
5. reversal of the policy the US has been pursuing of transferring the burden of risk away from corporations and rich guys, onto ordinary Americans
6. assurance that the economy will be governed competently – we all really like how Bill handled things, I would like to see the same people running the show (Rob Rubin, was that his name? I liked him)
There are probably other things that the working class would like, but these here are a nice start.
Upstate,
What has happened to our quiet, peaceful little blog?
Jacilyn: We’re on the same page on all that stuff — are those things you think the current Dems have abandoned? I recently saw a video on TPM of Teddy Kennedy railing about the minimum wage… It was great.
I credit a large part of what happened during the Clinton-years economics to the dotcom phenomenon, which I think is something any president at that time would have benefited from (and which collapsed pretty spectacularly).
Universal healthcare is a weird one. On one hand, I looove it, and have appreciated it in the past personally. On the other — I look at the forces lined up against it, and think that there are going to have to be baby steps. I’m not in agreement with Hillary that a single, wholesale push over to the universal system is the way to go, and I particularly fear a 90s-like crash where the issue then becomes so toxic it can’t be touched for another decade. I’m from MA, as I mentioned, so I know that there are some models that work and others that don’t, but the sheer resistance to universal health makes me want to take a more gradual path towards it.
And on the topic mentioned earlier, about the response of “race matters” not necessarily following through to a racist vote cast, there’s this (please ignore editorializing of author):
http://blog.beliefnet.com/stevenwaldman/2008/05/what-race-factor.html
Jacilyn: We’re on the same page on all that stuff
Not if you’re for Obama.
Sorry – if people actually believed that, he wouldn’t have just gotten slaughtered in all the places where “my people” vote.
Hey look – we gave him a chance to talk. We really did listen. We listened to both of ‘em. Clinton talked about steel. Obama talked about … himself.
I credit a large part of what happened during the Clinton-years economics to the dotcom phenomenon
I credit trust and good governance.
I believe that Bill Clinton listened very carefully and attentively to a variety of viewpoints, and made a special effort to understand what the best experts said about economic issues.
Then, he built trust. People trusted the USA and trusted the economy and trusted him. Trust makes the economy bloom and the nation prosper.
I liked the way he made decisions. I believe Hillary Clinton would be even better.
it is not scolding for a presumptive leader of democratic women to take an unequivocal stand against misogyny. It is leadership.
yes, it’s the “when she’s down” comment. Listen to wright ridicule Monica Lewinsky for being “ridden dirty” by Bill Clinton.
He wanted the sexism to work in his favor. You’re probably right that it was an explicit campaign strategy to let Hillary stand alone to face the onslaught of woman-hatred and bile. That strategy is, on the face of it, despicable. I wouldnt allow a dog to be treated the way he has allowed her to be treated. I wouldnt support a democrat who let that kind of hatred stand against a republican. To do it to a fellow democrat is unforgiveable to me.
But really, my feelings are beside the point. The cold hard fact I’m left with is that Barack Obama, by his actions and inactions, by the actions and inactions of his supporters, his family members, and his campaign staff have made it clear to me that he has no intention of standing up for women in this country.
There are 99 reasons I’m a democrat, but that asshole isnt one.
Sheesh! I don’t hate Obama but I feel like he picked a bad time to run. He needed to get that entire Senate term in before he even thought about it. As it stands now, he looks like a guy who can’t hold a job because he’s always busy chasing the “next big thing.”
I’m in California too. I can’t “not vote” because I’ve always felt I have a duty and an obligation as an American citizen to vote. (If they let me drink and drive, then I need to vote too.) If there is no Hillary on the ballot, I’m going to have to go with McCain. He’s not perfect but I don’t think he’ll be able to do much damage with an overwhelmingly Democrat Senate and Congress.
I’m not willing to vote for the guy with the least experience running on the platform of “hope & change.”
Fair enough. We remain far apart on those perceptions, obviously, but I’ve got a much better idea of the other side of the coin now. Thanks very much, Murphy, this has been an interesting chat.
welcome to the sweetie democrats brigade Gracie! we will stop the obama movement to save the democratic party.
4 years is a very short time.
you’re quite welcome Ella. glad to be of help.
I have been trying to help Larry Sinclair get his story out. I wonder if anyone can give me Ideas.
I know that all the democratic senators and the DNC office know this story is true.
I have a copy of the globe story
They do not care nor does the media. Larry would like to go on the media and have his story heard.
Does anyone know how we can contact somebody to help air a commercial
I am hoping that somebody can give us a clue.
We need to stop this before it’s too late.
http://www.larrysinclair0926.wordpress.com
you will see alot of what is going on, including a copy of the globe & enquiry story.
Fox news has the info but they will not release it until it’s just obama and john (hmmm wonder why)
We all know why msnbc & the others will not show this.
Larry needs the American people to hear the story
Obama is directly linked to the killing of his gay friend because he knew too much. A private investigator says the CPD is covering up the investigation.
[...] From Riverdaughter (warning: if you don’t like the pocket guide, you will really not like this): [...]
I’d say that this crowd in here, by and large, is definitely in the anger stage.
Sen. Obama staff knows about the below, they must hope if they claim victory, maybe no one will notice his future censor bt the Seante.
Unless Democrats want to guarantee the next President of the United States is a Republican, you better read all of this. As the CNN News had repeated ignored what the 200 plus delegates,DNCC, GOPC, Sen. Clinton, Sen. McCain & Sen. Obama know that the Senate Select Committee on Ethic received a legal brief in April 2008, where Sen. Obama has been charged with violation of the Senate’s Code of Ethics.
As it not a frivolous charge, the Senate Select Committee of Ethics is conduction their investigation. Because of red tape, and time, if the Democrats want the next President of the United States to be a Democrat, time must be given for their investigation to conclude. Which means those pledged delegate for Sen. Obama need to hear from those Democrats in their district, and States, otherwise what will happen will be Sen. Obama will be selected as the Democratic candidate, then as the evidence against Sen. Obama, (see below), is so overwhelming, there will be no choice, but for Senate to censure Sen. Obama for unmoral conduct for befriending a domestic terrorist. Hey you better read on, because as you read, you will see that while you may have already voted for Sen. Obama in your primary election, you may see that the only way the next President of the United States, will be a Democratic. Is if Sen. Clinton is given the time to fight on to the Democrat Convention. There is always the slim chance Sen. Obama will not be censored, but there no way to know, unless the Senate Select Committee of Ethic have the time to complete their investigation before the Democratic candidate is chossen. So call your pledge delegates and tell then that time is needed, that those delegates should announce that they will wait until the Democratic Convention to choose who they vote for. Time, is needed. Other wise you will guarantee a Republican as the next President of the United States. As do you really think a lot of those who previously voted for Sen. Obama, will vote for him in the General election when he has been censored for his friendship to a domestic terrorist?
The FBI classifies that the act of setting a bomb is a terrorist act. Do you know what both Lee Harvey Oswald and William Ayers have in common, both are domestic terrorist and neither was convicted of their crime. Oswald was killed after he assassinated JFK, and Ayers admitted that he got off on a technically, even though he set many bombs and should of set more bombs. As Oswald only committed one act of terrorism, and Ayers have committed more acts of terrorist, William Ayers is technically a worst domestic terrorist than Lee Harvey Oswald was.
There is a moral cause in the Senate Code of Ethics, that Sen. J. William Fulbright stated in the U.S. Senate in the early 1950s, that when a Senator’s gives the “implied behavior of The Moral Deterioration of American Democracy”, that that is a violate the Senate Code of Ethics.
And to think that Sen. Obama compared his friendship to William Ayers, (domestic terrorist), to his friendship with Sen. Coburn. (A highly respected Republic Senator).
To all Democrats, unless you call your delegates and tell them that time is needed, and let the Democratic Convention decide then who the Democratic Candidate is, you will be guarantee the next President of the United States to be a Republican.