Yup, that’s what it feels like to this New Jersey voter for Clinton. By stubbornly and *selectively* enforcing “the RULZ!” for Florida and MI and no other jump-ahead early voting state, he is removing the critical mass that the rest of the Clinton voters need to put her ahead and help resolve this whole thing. He is suppressing not only Floridians but New Jerseyans and Californians and New Yorkers by artificially inflating Obama’s vote totals.
If you’re in one of these states and you don’t particularly like Howard and Donna putting their thumbs on the scale for Obama, maybe it’s time you made sure they remember you’re out here and you’re still watching. Because if Obama wins the nomination because Howard and Donna managed to negate more than half of the Democratic electorate in a manner that is outrageously reminiscent of the Presidential election of 2000, there will be hell to pay. Denver will be full of very unhappy Bennies and Shoobies being their obnoxious selves and crashing the party with loud abrasive New Jersey and New York accents.
Let your state party know how you feel about Howard and Donna’s voter suppression. As Anglachel says:
The Florida and Michigan delegates are not being seated because they would allow Hillary to win. Period. Unlike the first two issues, which are structural, this one is political. In a pathetic attempt to stack the primary season for John Edwards, the DNC shoved these two, must-win states out in the cold, probably figuring they would fall in line and support the eventual nominee and all damage could be fixed before the convention…. Something I have not seen discussed much in the blogosphere, in great part because voters who support Hillary are not seen as having cast legitimate votes, is that Florida knows it is the king-maker in this convention, and it damn well is not going to revote. In this game of chicken, Howard Dean loses. “The rules” aren’t going to count for squat when Florida demands to be seated. If Obama’s forces refuse to seat Florida for the sole purpose of denying Hillary delegates, he will lose Florida in the general, and probably Michigan, too, and there goes the election. To try to wrangle a win out of a convention that does not seat Florida and Michigan is to lose massive amounts of legitimacy. Do you think my mother-in-law and all her senior female friends who turned out en masse to vote for Hillary in Florida are going to vote for Obama after he denies FL a voice at the convention?
Yes, that’s exactly what it feels like. The “white male graduate student” bloggers and Howard and Donna have decided that votes for Clinton are somehow illegitimate. They decided ahead of time thatEdwards or Barry would be the nominee so we never did count. Was there pressure applied to delegitimize Florida and Michigan last summer? Were they not cut a break? What kind of choices were given that made “The RULZ” what they are?
It reminds me of what happened to me when I was trollstormed off DailyKos. Markos said he would reinstate after the primaries. Like somehow in a rigged game of musical chairs, my chair was removed and I am no longer allowed to play the game. Such is the case with Clinton. Her candidacy is completely irrelevant to them. She merely gets in the way and makes the first round of the game last longer that it should. So, they rigorously enforce the RULZ! so she can’t play anymore. And Markos and the others just assume that the rest of us who lost out in the first round because of their game rigging are going to be cool with the outcome. We’ll join in later after *they’ve* decided. Well, it’s not just MI and FL. There are all of the millions of the rest of us who are not giving up our chair simply because The Precious was able to score in Idaho and Utah.
Well, if this is not a scenario to your liking, why let Jennifer Granholm and the head of the Florida Democratic party go it alone? Call your local powerbrokers and let them know how you feel. Tell them that you want to fire Howard Dean and Donna Brazile. There are more of us Big State voters than there are Big Box Store bloggers and nutty Obamaphiles. In New Jersey and New York, governors Corzine and Spitzer might be a good place to start. In OH, Ted Strickland. In CA, try Diane Feinstein. In MA, Barney Frank. Find your state party chairmen and pound them with email and phone calls and tell them you will not be ignored. Because if Florida and Michigan don’t count, none of US do either.
Filed under: Presidential Election 2008 | Tagged: Donna Brazile, Florida, Howard Dean, Michigan, primaries, voter suppression
riverdaughter, that’s a GREAT idea. I canceled my Democracy Bond yesterday (and I’m a charter member.) They were invented to implement the 50 State Strategy — But THAT’s obviously out the window. Bizarrely there was no place to explain WHY I was canceling it. So I’ll have to write a letter today anyway.
I don’t come from a big state. But that doesn’t mean Kansas can’t support fairness.
Thank you for clarifying some of the thoughts I’ve been thinking.
HI:
Are you rallying the troops into action? Let’s do it! I will be doing my share later today.
I see traffic over here is increasing…. how exciting. After you (or someone else, I do not remember) mentioned that ads at DK were not being checked by visitors (or something along those lines), I make a point of checking ads at sites I like (TL, NQ, etc.). Maybe we will be seeing some ads here in the future?
Yesterday I saw Bradley (I think that is his name/sp?) at NPR. Is he from NJ? He sounded exactly like an Obamabot. Even Rev. Jackson was palatable to me, but Bradley was just repeating the same talking points of the Obama campaign, when it comes to delegates. Quite abrasive too. I somehow felt that he spoke for the DNC when making his points. ME NOT LIKE, or as Ms. Clavel says in Madeline, “something is not right” Somehting smells fishey.
I do not see how doing the primaries over in FL does not help Hillary. She should carry that state easily. I do not know about Michigan though. I doubt the DNC will ever sit them as is, unless BO wraps up the nomination and then, in a gesture of magnanimity, calls for their sitting. In any instance something needs to be done. No caucauses, please.
I am starting to get quite tired of this primary. I know many say it is building organization in all states and all that, but it is getting the Dems quite angry at each other. Then again, the average voter will not get engaged till later, and will probably accept whoever is the nominee.
Anyhow, what do I know….
Ooops, PBS, instead of NPR
Howard Dean will not bend the party rules to grandfather in the disputed delegates from Michigan and Florida. And somehow that gets translated into “giving voters the finger.” Nice.
This storyline unfairly maligns Howard Dean, who as chairman, is enforcing delegate selection rules that the entire Democratic National Committee membership agreed to abide by 18 months ago. The DNC stripped Florida and Michigan of their delegates after the two states submitted delegate selection plans that violated those rules.
Florida and Michigan voters were screwed by their respective state legislatures. In the case of Florida, Dean actively tried to broker a compromise and the only thanks he got was a big “Fuck You” from the Democrats who thought they could bully Howard into accepting the new primary date.
Dean has made a commitment to neutrality in the primaries and there is nothing to suggest that he has “put his thumb on the scales for Obama.” If you have evidence to support that assertion, other than mere assumption, lay it out.
Donna Brazile, on the other hand, is clearly in the bag for Obama and she has no business speaking for the party while masquerading as neutral. She is the last person who should be speaking for the DNC. She is a terrible surrogate.
But this post makes a terrible error in conflating the two.
Have written the DNC about Florida many times and I get absolute silence. As a voter in Florida I am so angry at ‘my party’. No one asked for our opinions on the matter. The Republican led state attached many items that were of great importance to all citizens in the legislation on moving the primary date. Paper Ballots, Homestead Exemptions, vote on Jan 29. How were our elected officials suppose to justify a no vote just because Dean wanted a Feb 5 date? The Republicans were allowed to campaign and received a 50% delegate reduction. Our rules say the same, yet the DNC decided to go beyond their own rules. I want an answer as to why Dean et al decided on the harshest penalty and I have yet to get one. Why was there no penalty for Iowa, SC and NH when they also moved their dates outside of Deans Rules?
We have early voting in Florida, so let’s just say that ALL Floridians were merely exercising their rights and voted early.
Sorry, corrine, but th FL legislature is Republican. Punishing FL–which had a record turnout as other states–is to punish Democrats for what Republicans did. If you’re happy with that, fine. Also, Iowa, NH, NV, and SC also broke the rules but those states, which weren’t supposed to go to Hillary, didn’t get punished. Why don’t people ever talk about that fact either?
Punishing FL selectively punishes so-called “rule breakers”. Why just FL and MI? That’s a very relevant question that reflects poorly on the DNC.
I just found out my eldest son was one of those that they tried to throw out of the “Obama caucus” in Dallas area. They did not like him because he had a notepad with a Hillary 08 sticker on it. He said five guys tried to shove him out, but couldn’t because he is 6′6′ and a rugby player. He said it was fun! He said a really great black guy and Obama supporter broke it up who is a Dallas cop. He said he is proud that his football skills were useful to Hillary. What the heck is happening in this country. This is crazy.
I have read at another site, that the cost of a new primary in Florida would be 18 million. Couldn’t we just do an entirely mail in primary (like Washington State), wouldn’t that keep the cost down??
angryFloridian: I think Anglachel is on to something. The idea was to give Edwards the best possible shot in the primaries leading up to the Feb 5 primaries. Florida probably looked like a lock for Clinton from the very start. It seems to me that the idea has ALWAYS been to minimize the effect of Florida or to have so much momentum for Edwards that Florida would have gone along. But Obama came along and destroyed all their lovely wickedness and has complicated matters. Oh, it would have been all ticketyboo if Obama had won NH too. Then the math would have worked for them as well.
As the pieces of the puzzle fall into place, it looks like Florida and MI were harshly and inflexibly punished as an anti-Clinton measure. Clinton probably thought she could win SuperTuesday and sew it up so she signed onto it, thinking that she could reinstate Florida and MI as the presumptive nominee at the convention. No one is off the hook here but the whole thing started with Howard and his droogs who hate any “establishment” candidate and very much want to test their theories of the 50 state strategy.
So, yes, blame Howard. The better candidate is getting the shaft from all sides, the wingers, the media and her own party. As a NJ voter, I am in solidarity with the voters of Florida and MI.
Corinne: the conflation is reality. Whether Howard is doing it intentionally or not (I believe it is intentional) he is invalidating the votes of the big D states when he denies the critical mass that the voters of Florida bring to the delegate count. As things stand now, they are virtually tied. But add Florida and MI and Hillary has an edge and a compelling case for being the nominee. And I can see no other reason for why they are not being included at this point EXCEPT for the fact that Clinton would have the edge. They just don’t want her.
BTW, for Howard’s 50 State Strategy to have any merit, his candidate has to win some of the BIG IMPORTANT STATES. So far he has only one his own home state and Georgia. That isn’t going to get him the election in the fall. In any other year, he would be a second tier candidate and Hillary would be taking on McCain by now. Let’s not kid ourselves. This is an attempt to throw a primary coup and install Howard’s choice, not ours.
Honora: I think a do-over mail-in primary in Michigan would be a very good idea. But in Florida, it is hard to believe that 1.7 million people didn’t make a clear and decisive statement back in January with Clinton, Obama and Edwards on the ballot. I can’t think of any legitimate reason why they need to do it over. It’s costly and it hurts downstream races. Is that what Howard wants? To damage downstream races in Florida, congressional races? To antagonize the voters to a degree that they vote overwhelmingly for Clinton-again? Or does Howard think that with Edwards out of the race, Obama stands to gain his delegates? Isn’t that like a HUGE handicap for Obama? Personally, I don’t think it’s going to work that way for Obama. I think there would be a backlash in Florida against him and if there’s enough publicity about it in the next 7 weeks, it would be disastrous for him in PA as well.
No, sorry to you gqmartinez because you’re laboring under an illusion that it was a corrupt, vote stealing Republican Party that insisted that the primary be held early.
You couldn’t be more wrong.
House Speaker Marco Rubio is a buddy of Jeb Bush and the effort to move the primary went back to March 2006.
Jeremy Ring, a Senate Democrat, introduced the primary bill. He was one of the main Democrats who worked for the bill.
Florida House Democratic Legislators voted in committee three times for the bill to move the primary to January 29.
The vote was 115 to 1 in favor of the bill, Democrats voting with Republicans. The lone holdout was a Democrat, Rep. Jack Seiler.
Florida House Democratic Leader Dan Gelber stated, after receiving a call from Howard Dean asking for help in opposing setting the primary date before February 5, “I don’t represent Howard Dean.”
House Democratic Leader Dan Gelber stated, after offering an amendment to move the primary to February 5th, that the only reason he offer it was “to show that there was an attempt to state within the Democratic Party rules.”
Florida Senate Democratic Legislators voted in committee to move the primary to January.
Florida Senate Democratic Leader Steve Geller stated on the Senate floor that he was offering an amendment to move the primary to February 5 only because he was threatened by DNC Chair Howard Dean. Sen. Geller than mocked his own amendment which failed on a voice vote without any debate.
And US Rep. Bob Wexler stood with Gov. Crist at the signing ceremony. (Must be that bipartisanship we keep hearing we need more of.)
http://www.pensitoreview.com/200…s-primary-date/
I hope this disabuses you of any future notions that somehow the Florida Democrats were powerless victims. They actively collaborated with Republicans.
Florida voters were screwed by their state leaders and then lied to about it. But they use Howard Dean as the scapegoat.
The argument that Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina should be punished is spurious. They moved their dates because of Florida and Michigan did not comply with a party rule barring any primaries or caucuses in January other than Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina.
“Whether Howard is doing it intentionally or not (I believe it is intentional)”
Prove it. You can believe it all you like but until you offer up hard evidence, it is nothing more than an opinion.
“And I can see no other reason for why they are not being included at this point EXCEPT for the fact that Clinton would have the edge. They just don’t want her.”
Look I support Hillary after Edwards dropped out but I refuse to get tin foily about it.
They aren’t being included because they broke the fucking rules. Everyone knew what the rules were. Everyone knew what the consequences were. And they still went ahead and jumped the queue because Florida wanted to be relevant and in Michigan Debbie Dingell has had a hair across her ass about it since 2004.
“BTW, for Howard’s 50 State Strategy to have any merit, his candidate has to win some of the BIG IMPORTANT STATES.”
Again I ask you: Where is the evidence to support your contention that Obama is Howard Dean’s preferred candidate? If you can’t do that much, your argument goes absolutely nowhere.
Christ, this place is just as ridiculous as DailyKos.
I agree with you, riverdaughter. As a MA Democrat who voted for Hillary, I have already made up my mind never to vote for John Kerry or Deval Patrick again. I’ll see how I feel about Teddy when he comes up next time. He should be ready for retirement soon anyway.
I will write to Barney Frank as well as my congressman (Markey), but I would like to know how to write directly to Howard Dean and others at the DNC. I went to democrats.org, but all they have is a general e-mail form. If anyone finds out an address to write to Dean directly, please post it. If it turns out that SD’s are voting as their states did, Kerry and Kennedy and Patrick damn well better vote for Hillary.
I’ve just about had it with Dean too. He should be a lot more proactive on this, because we can’t win the election without Mich. and Fla. Not to mention that I doubt if Obama can carry Ohio or Fla. in November either.
I think do over primaries in Michigan and Florida are a good idea, but the main sticking point is money.
Both campaigns should split the costs of running the do over primaries. Clinton and Obama can go back to their maxed out donors and help pay it, which I’m estimating will cost about $30-40 million for both states.
I’m sure the Republican legislatures will approve of new primaries because of the economic boost contested primaries can bring especially in media expenses. Also, they apparently want to extend the Dem nomination fight so thats another incentive.
I agree. Florida had a record turnout at the earlier primary and people were voting in some tax or land issue that brought them out in groves. I am just at the point where I want Hillary to get the benefit of her incredible Florida support. So if a re-do is the only way to placate the Obama crowd, I would be in favor of it. If Florida and Michigan are not seated, then their SDs do not get to vote either. Hillary leads Obama in that count by 15 to 5, according to demconwatch’s totals. (I am sorry but I don’t know how to make that a proper link.
Corinne: Here’s what you are missing, the VOTERS of Florida and MI had no say in the matter. Now, you can make a big deal about who did what when to which party and referendum tied to the primary dates and all of that. But it is the VOTERS who are being screwed by this, not the party members. There is no scenario that doesn’t screw the voters in Florida except just seating the delegates as is. If you make them do another primary, it is going to be very expensive and it’s going to hurt party efforts to get congressional races won. It can’t possibly do Obama any good to insist on a redo. He can’t win Florida and he certainly won’t win it if he intends to keep the nomination hostage due to an artificially inflated vote count. And if he screws the state of Florida, he is by extension screwing the voters of all of the other big D states who need Florida’s votes for the critical mass to put Clinton forward. Obama may have won a lot of states but he has yet to win the Democratic base he needs for the general. Those are the facts. No Florida, no Democratic base.
Corinne: This place is not as ridiculous as DailyKos. We use logic and reasoning not appeals to emotion. We’re not harping on Rezko. We’re not maliciously maligning Obama’s family or reputation. We’re just calling it as we see it and putting the pieces together. Personally, I could go for a joint ticket with Clinton on top. I don’t like Obama because of the divisive way he’s run his campaign and the way he has ridden the media’s sexist coattails. But if it means we are all unified, I’ll choke down my bile and accept him.
But if you are uncomfortable here, please, by all means find another place to hang out. There are plenty of options and you will not lack for company. The commenters here have had enough harrassment. and name calling and would prefer to relate to one another in peace.
BB: I don’t think Howard wants or cares to hear from you directly. You’re just an illegitimate Clinton voter. You will get much more bang for your buck if you get some powerbrokers to lean on him.
“Here’s what you are missing, the VOTERS of Florida and MI had no say in the matter.”
But the blame lies appropriately with the FLORIDA STATE LEGISLATURE not the DNC or Howard Dean. The voters should be angry that they were denied a say in matters and they need to vote out of office the legislators who made that happen.
“There is no scenario that doesn’t screw the voters in Florida except just seating the delegates as is.”
It will happen and it will happen at the Convention. Believe it or not there are rules for that too. MyDD had a couple of diaries last month about how the delegates would be seated. Nobody doubts that will happen.
Honora: I do not believe the Obama crowd really want a re-do in Florida (muchs less if it is a primary). That will not really placate them. they are just giving lip service to that idea because they do not want to seat those delegates as is, yet they sound “fair” and adhering to the “rules”
I think it is a lot of bull.
I am not as savy as most of you when it comes to politics, and do not believe too much in conspiracy theories. However, as I said, he knows that it is in his best interest to give lip-service to the idea of a re-do in FL and Michigan at this point, in hopes of closing the deal before the need for that even arises. He is a good old school pol after all.
I do not see how having primaries in FL again, helps BO, and he knows it. Even with the whole momentum mantra crap and all his victories under the belt, I doubt he is going to carry FL.
My two cents.
“This place is not as ridiculous as DailyKos. We use logic and reasoning not appeals to emotion.”
There is far more emotion and too little reasoning in this post. Whatever logic it is based on is terribly flawed.
“We’re just calling it as we see it and putting the pieces together.”
No, you’re not. I spoke out because you don’t have all the pieces and because of that, you’re not calling it correctly.
I came here because it was recommended after I left DK and TPM for my sanity. And the first thing I read is blame being placed where it doesn’t belong and very little effort to marshal some basic facts in support.
NB to Boston Boomer: Look at the bottom of the DNC webpage and you’ll find the street address. You can mail a letter to Howard there. I think he would appreciate hearing from you.
rd– Thanks for the reply. Then I’ll write to Kerry and Kennedy in addition to Frank and Markey, even though Kerry never has responded to anything I’ve ever written to him. I’m mad as hell, and I’m not going to take it anymore.
Corrinne,
I know the MI and FLA delegates are going to have be seated eventually if the DNC actually wants to win the election, but if they wait till the convention it’s going to get really ugly. They need to start dealing with this a lot sooner, IMHO. If FLA and MI are willing to do mail-in revotes, fine, but caucuses are not acceptible. It sounds like Obama will not agree to a revote, and he should be forced to come out and say it, if it’s true.
Corinne: I am aware of all the little tricks that are proposed for putting the issue before the credentials committee. But, once again, I have also heard that the only way they will be seated is if they don’t count. No, no, don’t try to deny it. And I am saying that the voters in CA, NJ, NY, MA, AZ, OH and TX (among others) should be in solidarity with Florida and not have to rely on the whims of a nominee who feels he does not need them. It sends a really bad message. And the message that is getting out *right now* is that Obama is just fine with suppressing the vote of Florida if it means that his delegate count looks inflated and he ends up getting the infinitesimal edge to take the nomination.
So, if you are OK with that narrative, “Obama OK with sitting on Florida voters until convention makes them irrelevant”, then go right ahead and keep it up. It only helps Clinton and since she is the better candidate, I appreciate all that you are doing on her behalf. By the time this narrative reaches PA, she should be able to blow his socks off. Because PA is one of *us*. It’s big and it’s going to go Clinton. Even my mother in the reddest part of PA who voted for Bush twice is voting for her. Barry hasn’t got a prayer there. But let him keep Florida dangling out there because “They didn’t play by the RULZ!” and let’s see what happens. He might as well accept them now while he still has a few delegates from Florida.
“if they wait till the convention it’s going to get really ugly.”
BB: That is why Howard put the state parties on notice that they can wait and allow the credentials committee to decide whether to seat their delegates, or submit to a re-vote sanctioned under DNC rules.
The appropriate question is not what the DNC will do but what the state parties will do. If they don’t want to wait for the convention they need to come up with a re-vote plan that is acceptable under the party rules. That re-vote also needs to happen before June 10.
Howard was on the network morning news shows today explaining his position. If I have time, I’ll have to check later today to see if there are any transcripts.
Corinne: We see what Howard’s position is and we think it’s going to backfire on him and the Democrats this fall. We’ve read his statements. If he’s on the morning shows trying to placate us, then he knows he has a problem. Now the rules say one thing, but if he gives us 4 years of McCain, we are going to have his scalp.
We’re not Republicans, you know. We’re not authoritarians. We don’t take orders and we’re not going to start now. There is no doubt in my mind that the decision not to seat this delegation has nothing to do with the rules. That’s just an excuse. He is pushing his advocacy for the anti-Clinton dangerously close to the line by treating Floridians like this and he will pay for it. We know it’s political. We’re not stupid.
You know, rd, I could respond if your posts were more thoughtfully considered. Here’s what I can respond to:
“I am aware of all the little tricks that are proposed for putting the issue before the credentials committee.”
They aren’t little tricks. There is a detailed process for seating the delegates. I suggest you familiarize yourself with it.
“So, if you are OK with that narrative, “Obama OK with sitting on Florida voters until convention makes them irrelevant”, ”
Nice try. The narrative I’m not OK with is “Howard Dean Fucks Over FL & MI Voters” and “Howard Dean Hearts Barack Obama.”
Should the Obama campaign play along? It’s easy to understand why they wouldn’t want to.
Corinne: This is not a “game” that Obama has to “play along” with. These are the votes of millions of people who he would very much like to ignore. What we want from a “leader” is someone who doesn’t disenfranchise the rest of us simply because it is politically convenient. It is his responsibility and duty to acquiesce to a reasonable solution even if the voters do not want him. Otherwise, he might as well be another Bush.
“If he’s on the morning shows trying to placate us, then he knows he has a problem.”
Placate? How about educate? If you don’t like that how about inform? Don’t people want, need and deserve information?
“There is no doubt in my mind that the decision not to seat this delegation has nothing to do with the rules. That’s just an excuse. He is pushing his advocacy for the anti-Clinton dangerously close to the line by treating Floridians like this and he will pay for it. We know it’s political. We’re not stupid.”
Prove. It. If you have evidence and reasoned arguments, you use them. If instead you disparage someone personally, it is because that is all you can do.
Corinne: You can not win this argument. Seriously. It has nothing to do with RULZ and you know it. Please go haunt some other thread.
“Otherwise, he might as well be another Bush.”
Are you just noticing this?
corinne,
I heard what Dean said this morning, but if you post a link to the video, I’ll watch it later this evening. I still think the DNC should be more proactive in working with the state parties, especially regarding the money it will cost for the revote. I hope that is going on in the background at some level. I do not want another Republican president, and that is what will happen if this continues to fester all summer until the convention. Frankly, I think if Obama is the nominee we will get McCain anyway, because Obama has not demonstrated his ability to either win the big states we need in the fall. He can’t close the deal when things get tight. Furthermore, he won’t be able to deal with media scrutiny when it starts in earnest. He doesn’t speak well extemporaneously, he keeps the press at arm’s length, and he comes off as whiny whenever he’s criticized. He doesn’t wear well, and lots of voters are not going to like him after they see and hear him repeatedly.
“You can not win this argument.”
What I apparently cannot do is reason with an unreasonable mind.
“It has nothing to do with RULZ and you know it.”
Again, I have asked for evidence that supports your many contentions and you have repeatedly failed to provide it. If you had greater confidence in your position, that would be an easy thing to do.
Corinne: Dean fans and Obama fans are very much the same type of people. I don’t know what makes you people tick and I have NO idea what you see in these two. Whatever that mysterious allure is completely escapes me. I’ve seen both in action and I came away completely and utterly unimpressed. There is an ideology at the heart of the Dean and Obama phenomenas that seems incredibly impractical and strategically stupid. I don’t buy into it and I’m not the only one.
Like I said before, we just want to dialogue in peace, without harrassment and without a load of “If you would only believe in Dean’s vision or Obama’s movement, you will see that it is superior to anything else.” I want none of it. Dean has made a mess of the primary season. The best candidate is still getting crap from every direction and I really resent it. Not once in this season has Dean stood up and reprimanded the press for the overtly negative media treatment that Hillary has gotten. If I didn’t already have an opinion of Dean’s recklesslessness and partiality, that right there sealed it in my mind.
So, please, toddle off and talk to people who care about Dean. He has very few friends here and if he screws up Florida, he’ll have even fewer elsewhere.
No corinne, the resemblance of Obama to Bush has not escaped us before. We are in awe of other people who do not see it.
As for the proof, there are plenty of links around the web that show that the RULZ will be rigorously enforced and the goal is to make sure that Florida is irrelevant. We don’t have to be party to every conversation to see the current situation is, who it benefits and what the projected outcome will be.
It’s called extrapolation.
I have believed for months that the party leadership wants Obama as the nominee. Can I prove it? No. I’m not one of them, and I don’t go to their meetings. But I have eyes and ears. I can see that the Party leadership has completely failed to stand up for one of our nominees when she has been mercilessly subjected to hateful, sexist attacks in the media and by the other candidate. I heard what Donna Brazille said about party leaders intervening (!) on behalf of Obama if he is negatively attacked.
I can tell you that I will leave the party if Hillary doesn’t get fair treatment. I didn’t even support Hillary at the beginning of this race, in fact, she was last on my list of candidates. But as a woman who grew up in the 50s and 60s, I know sexism when I see it. And I watched and listened to Hillary in the debates and I realized that I unknowingly had been partially brainwashed by constant hammering of her. I will not stand for her being trashed by my own party. And I will not vote for Obama unless he is forced to commit to take privatization of social security off the table and to proposing and fighting for a serious UHC plan.
I’ve had it with the “left” (more like libertarian) blogosphere and with the party leadership, including John Kerry.
corinne, you are absolutely wrong in your Rules are Rules argument. I’ve read the rules and they are filled with gaping holes with room for virtually any interpretation the DNC wanted to impart.
Rule 21, For example affects Florida:
Part C give the DNC the right to do what they want no matter what actions the state parties take to overcome the legislation.
And the entire document is riddled with such loopholes.
The standard for punishment is to reduce the delegations by 1/2 — and if that had been done way-back at the beginning of this brew-ha-ha we wouldn’t be talking about it now.
But the DNC went for the harshest penalties — why? Did Dean REALLY envision a convention without FL & MI? That’s not possible. So what scenario did he envision at the time? Has it changed?
Rules are Rules and Elections are Elections. But, I’ve read these rules and the DNC had nothing but options in how they implemented them and what punishments they inflicted on us. This IS their fault.
And you can tell me that Dean is only speaking for the Whole — but if he’s only a mouth-piece and not a leader, then he isn’t speaking for me. Anymore.
Rule 21 is Catch 22.
Bravo, Katiebird. He’s a mouthpiece, not a leader. A leader would never have let this happen in the first place.
Now I understand your position. It’s all personal.
“Like I said before, we just want to dialogue in peace”
This isn’t dialogue on an issue. It’s demagoguing an issue.
“If you would only believe in Dean’s vision or Obama’s movement, you will see that it is superior to anything else.”
Um, not my position. My position is your argument doesn’t stand on facts.
“Dean has made a mess of the primary season.”
How again? The DNC membership changed the primary calendar. The DNC membership voted to approve the primary calendar. As chairman, he enforces the rules set by the membership. It’s not his job to act unilaterally and disregard the membership.
“The best candidate is still getting crap from every direction and I really resent it.”
That is one thing on which we can agree. First Edwards, who couldn’t get any press oxygen at all, then Hillary who couldn’t get good press if her life depended on it.
“Not once in this season has Dean stood up and reprimanded the press for the overtly negative media treatment that Hillary has gotten.”
If he did that, it would be interpreted as favoring Hillary and since he committed to remaining neutral–a position he has repeatedly made on the record–and then hell would break loose because the party chairman favored a candidate.
His job is to try to run the party. It’s your right not to be happy with his performance but your arguments are nothing but baseless assertions.
“He has very few friends here and if he screws up Florida”
Go reread my post to gqmartinez. He is trying to clean up someone else’s mess.
I didn’t realize I’d wandered into the He-Man Howard Haters Club.
(bowing)
corinne, I’ve worn my Dean lapel pin on every jacket, sweater & coat I own for nearly 5 years now. I just took it off 2 weeks ago.
sorry to hear that katiebird.
” hope this disabuses you of any future notions that somehow the Florida Democrats were powerless victims. They actively collaborated with Republicans.”
Actually, as I understand it, this is not entirely true. The republicans added this vote to another bill that the dems could not afford to say no to. They forced the dems hand. Furthermore, why is it OK to break the RULZ for some states, but not others. This was Hward Dean’s decision.
Corinne: No, some of us do not much care for Howard. I don’t speak for everyone here but many of us are very disappointed at the way this primary season has turned out. What we have here is two candidates in a virtual dead heat. One of these candidates has been passing all if the hard tests and getting no credit for it because she lacks the critical mass of Florida and Michigan. The other has taken advantage of some low hanging fruit and has been unable to convert his wads iof cash to a win in any crucial states outside his own state and heavily AA Georgia. If this were a merit based system, Clinton would win. But it’s not. It’s very much a rigged system at the moment. And Howard is responsible for that. if he wants to make it more Democratic and meritorious. he could do the honorable thing and seat Florida and have a mail in primary for Michigan at the party’s expense.
Anything short of that disenfranchises the Clinton voters in all of the other big states.
From what I know, the predominant view in upper echelons is split between “Dean screwed up and it’s his problem to fix” and “Dean screwed up and there’s no way to fix it”.
I’m kinda sympathetic to his predicament, then and now. Everybody wanted to rush the calendar, some discipline was needed, and nobody thought it could ever get this bad.
What now? If there’s a re-do, maybe it should be winner-take-all. How’s that for excitement?
In 1968 Mississippi’s regular D’s sent a Jim Crow delegation, and the Freedom Democratic Party sent an integrated delegation. LBJ, MLK and others worked out a “compromise” – seating just two members of the MFDP in addition to the “old RULZ” delegation. The worry was they’d lose MS and a pack of other states in the general election. An ugly solution, but all of politics is more about results than principles.
BTD has a re-do compromise that seats some % of the delegates from the first primaries & the rest of the delegates from the re-do.
As a compromise, it’s not bad. But I haven’t heard any of the power-brokers discussing any such thing.
Riverdaughter,
I am in a big rush, but am putting this link, b/c it’s really relevant to the topic. Link:
http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2008/states/fl.htm
(coutesy of TalkLeft, here:
http://www.talkleft.com/comments/2008/2/13/195153/547/191#191)
Money quote:
Yes, read this link at TALKLEFT.
http://www.talkleft.com/comments/2008/2/13/195153/547/191#191
The author describes the overboard punishment dished out to Florida and Michigan contrary to what the rules themselves anticipated.
I hope you are noting that even though the republican Florida legislature was responsible for moving the primary date, the republicans imposed the 50% stipulated punishment, but the democrats decided to really strip Florida of all its delegates, ban campaigning and advertising to boot. But, they left room for raising money out of Florida. Can an insult get any worse?? Who made the convincing argument in the Rules and By-laws committee for these harsh punishments? You guess it: Donna Brazille.
I hope you noted that 120,000 ballots and 150 caucus sites offered to Florida by DNC. What a grand gesture!!
So presumably, the old ladies in Florida can travel to one of these caucus sites in the middle of winter and put up with a huge chaos and come back home and be happy about it.
MI & FL Not DNC’s Problem says Dean via Talk Left and AP
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080306/ap_on_el_pr/primary_scramble
“The two state parties will have to find the funds to pay for new contests without help from the national party, Dean said.
“We can’t afford to do that. That’s not our problem. We need our money to win the presidential race,” he said.”
The DNC only has 3 million left in its coffers since last reporting so I don’t know what money Dean is talking about. You can’t have a convention without Michigan and Florida. Dean has to be more pro-active and solve this problem.
Why do Obama supporters, the DNC and the Obama campaign want to ignore the will of the people? There should be no compromise on FL. Record turnout. All names were on the ballot. And Obama was the only candidate to break the no-campaigning pledge.
There were 1.7 MILLION people who voted in the Dem primary. How many Alaskas and idahos would you need to make it to that number?
Yikes! Are we going to have an Obamatroll everyday now? At least this one is not putting up fake polls.
gqmartinez covered all relevant issues in his comment. If Dean truly cared about winning the GE, he would not be pissing off the Florida and Michigan voters, without whom we don’t stand a chance. What I have always wondered is why the DNC gets to tell states when to have their primaries? Why don’t they spend their time in a more useful fashion, like doing away with caucuses (cauci?). The rule of a secret ballot and one person one vote is way more important than when some state has its primary.
And please don’t ever go back to Kos. I never really got on that site much, but I love this one. (Or, on the other hand, please go back to Kos and maybe I will get some work done, and my hand will not become completely attached to the mouse).
PS – I had never heard the word “ticketybo” until you used it. Now that Obama has made plagiarism acceptable, I’m adopting it.
I just had a spirited debate with my partner down the hall, a great guy who is as much of a junkie as I am, and who supports Obama. We’ve had many civil, thought-provoking and thoroughly respectful discussions about Clinton and Obama over the months.
This was the first time he got agitated with me. “The rules are the rules, you can’t change the rules!” The unfairness of disenfranchising the Democratic voters of two major — and electoral vote heavy — states was less important than the unfairness of changing the rules, moving the goalposts on Obama after he had secured a significant lead.
I explained my view that MI and FLA were different, because in FLA everyone had been on an even playing field. No, apparently 1.7 million voters didn’t cast legitimate votes because the candidates didn’t physically come to FLA. The FLA voters don’t care, I said. “It’s still not legit, it’s no more legit than MI….” In the end, he was reduced to saying that Obama voters would never accept the results of either primary as legitimate, and that without the perception of legitimacy, seating those delegations would destroy the party.
Eventually, my partner and I stopped fighting and started talking again. To his credit, he acknowledges that Obama can’t stand in the way of a re-vote, and that Clinton is likely to win both states in a re-vote, perhaps by bigger margins than before. He admires her tenacity, and gives her at least 50/50 odds of getting the nomination if the re-vote occurs.
But it is clear to me that there is no way that Obama will permit even the FLA delegation to be seated as is, let alone FLA and MI. As riverdaughter points out, it is unfair in any case for the punishment to fall on the voters, who bear no fault at all. But I think that’s the reality. The DNC will not push Obama to bend on that point because it would undermine the whole point of the sanctions on FLA and MI — to enhance their own authority and discipline. Not exactly what you call “people-powered politics,” but there you have it.
I suppose we’ll never know exactly how much fault lies with the Dean and the DNC, and how much with the state parties, but that’s really beside the point for me. I think this is something that Dean allowed to fester, and that he therefore bears the ultimate responsibility for it — how could he, as DNC chair, decide that the best course was to hope that someone would be able to establish a lock on the nomination without FLA and MI? How could a DNC chair who espouses a 50 state strategy decide to ALLOW the state parties to disenfranchise their voters even if he thought the state parties were entirely to blame? How could he let it come to the point where, no matter what happened, the supporters of one of the candidates would perceive the results as illegimate, thereby undermining the eventual nominee?
Just my 2 cents.
Someone over at Talk Left had a great idea (that site is great)! Just have a rich person(s) pay for it. I’m sure we can find a bunch of billionaires and millionaires to pay for a new election and the money issue is worked out. I would prefer a new primary on April 22nd but I doubt the Obama campaign will not accept that fearing a loss.
WS: I am still of the opinion that FL shouldn’t be penalized at all for this. The primary was well attended and no candidate had an advantage as far as campaigning is concerned. (except for Obama who wasted $1.4 Million) I am not of the opinion that punishing the voters arbitrarily is good for the party.
So, why not leave it up to the candiadtes? Give them the choice: either accept the delegation as is NOW or have a redo paid for by the candidate who objects to seating them NOW. It *must* be a primary and to minimize costs, it can be a mail-in primary. This is the proposal that Dean should put before the candidates. That way, the Florida Democratic party is not penalized economically and the voters, the innocent party to all of this, get their delegation. Barry gets another lemon but, hey, he asked for it.
[...] Big D states are held hostage to Obama and his supporters desire to win by suppressing the vote. Caucuses in a state as large as Florida are out of the question, not to mention unrepresentative of the population at [...]
On Wednesday a prominent super-delegate told the press that should Hillary Clinton’s primary campaign continue to be based on “the seeds of doubt” about Barack Obama or otherwise be perceived as negative in tone, then the head of the DNC Howard Dean should step in and pressure Hillary to drop out of the race, presumably using the super-delegates as a lever.
“Despite Obama’s impressive victories in February, Clinton’s comeback is based on sowing political seeds of doubt,” said Donna Brazile, a Democratic strategist and one of nearly 800 party leaders known as superdelegates for their ability to determine the nomination. “In order to clinch the nomination, he must anticipate the worst attacks ever….If these attacks are contrasts based on policy differences, there is no need to stop the race or halt the debate,” Brazile said. “But, if this is more division, more diversion from the issues and more of the same politics of personal destruction, chairman Dean and other should be on standby.”
I understand Ms. Brazile’s aversion to negative campaigning, since her unsubstantiated accusation of an extramarital affair against George W. Bush got her fired from the Michael Dukakis general election campaign. (Said Brazile at the time, “The American people have every right to know if Barbara Bush will share that bed with him in the White House”.) And I don’t necessarily mean this sarcastically–even though her inflamatory CNN comments on the even of the S. Carolina primary that Bill Clinton’s usse of the words “kid” and “fairy tale” to describe Obama were “racist” might also qualify Donna Brazile as the queen of mean.
But I can think of at least two reasons why any attempt by the DNC to force an early end to Hillary Clinton’s primary bid based on the content of her campaign message is a bad idea.
First and most obvious, the idea that a political party would try to censor the speech and ideas of a political candidate or campaign in this manner is not only offensive but contrary to the constitutional values of the United States of America under the First Amendment.
Second, ending the primary process now before any candidate obtains the minimum number of pledged delegates will disenfranchise the voters in those states where the Democratic primary elections have not yet been held.
That would mean that the DNC—in addition to disenfranchising the voters of Florida and Michigan (which the DNC has already done, as punishment for holding early primaries)—would be telling the voters with later primaries in their states that their votes will not count either.
In other words by fiat of the DNC, the voters in Guam, Indiana, Kentucky, Montana, North Carolina, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Puerto Rico, South Dakota, and West Virginia will join the voters of Michigan and Florida in the “your votes don’t count club”.
I applaud House Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s statement on Wednesday implying that the super-delegates should back off for now and let the primary process continue to play out. (“I was never among those who believed this would be resolved by now.”)
But I do not think that Speaker Pelosi has gone far enough to insure democracy.
Unless and until a single Democratic Party candidate wins enough pledged delegates to capture the nomination the last primary in the last state should be held and the votes counted.
Only then should the super-delegates cast their votes—in the manner provided by the rules.
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gianelli — Good point. And if the later states are ignored, it only increases the pressure on everybody to GO EARLY next time.
Who pays? Maybe we should do it the American Way … loser pays!
Loser pays, winner takes all the marbles.
ALL the marbles.
rd, I totally agree with you that Florida should be seated as is, but if it takes a second win in Michigan and Florida to quiet Obama supporters, thats fine with me too. Plus I think she can even extend her margins in Florida which will help her in the total popular vote count. Without Florida or Michigan, she is down + or – 600 K votes. With the current Fl and Michigan results, she has the edge in total popular votes.
I think if there is a revote, we can trail slightly (with Pennsylvania putting us over the top) or eclipse Obama’s total popular vote total without a question mark hovering over the two states.
I think she already has a great rationale for getting the superdelegate votes with her lead among rank and file Dems and big state wins. But a popular vote victory will help bolster her argument and take away an Obama talking point about the “will of the people” even if the people includes meddling Republicans.
Hello, everyone. What a nice place to be, particularly after the Orange Obama site.
This whole debacle came about because of the totally unreasonable demands of Iowa and New Hamphire to always be the first primaries. How they manage to hold onto to this priviledged status year after year is another story (but also a Dean blunder since he could have challenged the cherished status quo). The DNC Rules are arbitrary ones–and now a million voters are to be disenfranchised so Dean can make his point that NO ONE is allowed to disobey him.
Florida had a level playing field. All candidates names were on the ballots. No one campaigned there and only Obama broke The Rules by playing ads. It’s hard to justify throwing out the election results because Obama lost. But if the election were to be held over, Hillary would undoubtedly win again. Does anyone think Obama wants to lose TWICE? How great would that look? So, my take is that the Obama campaign will hold out for caucuses in both Michigan and Florida. And we can only hope that the Clinton campaign will not agree.
Seat all the Florida delegates and half the Michigan delegates and bring this farce to an end.
miriam, yes, this is a very nice website. When people disagree, they generally do so in a logical, thoughtful, respectful manner; it is a haven of sanity in a world of websites gone wild.
I do not understand why the DNC should be concerning itself with when a state holds its primary — to me the only rules they should make should be designed to ensure a fair vote and to see that the Democratic candidate is selected by real Democrats, not those who are Democratic for a day, then Republican in November.
Honestly, being a Democrat this year is like being a Cubs fan.